No.
One more question: Assume a very simple case of a customer with only two spots on a stub track. Spot 1 is occupied by a car that is only partly loaded or unloaded. A car to be placed at Spot 2 arrives. The car at Spot 1 is moved to allow placing the newly arrived car and the car originally at Spot 1 is returned there. Is there an intra-plant switching charge?
ChuckAllen, TX
If you find the intersection of Wayside and Clinton Drive, you find where I work.
23 17 46 11
Thanks Ed. This thread has been interesting and educational. It helped me to look at the map of PTRA and peek at it on Google Earth.
Norm
Which is how the old heads taught us when we were the new guys...they wouldn't let us do really dangerous stuff that might get someone hurt or tear stuff up, but they had no problem letting us make mistakes that resulted in us having to make more moves than needed, or double handle cars...once we wore ourselves out some, they would offer a "suggestion" on how to do it faster or easier....which in the end taught us better than any class room or rule book lesson.
One of the cardinal lessons we learned right quick was, if you have to go down there, make sure you only have go to there once!
Ed
A good switchman doesn't use much of his brain. He uses his butt - to sit down and let the conductor figure out the work.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Yeah, had a few like that myself...ledgends in their own minds!
edblysardIt is possible for a two year guy to be the foreman and have a 20 year man as his switchman....the switch engine foreman runs the job.
That works as long as the brakeman is seen and not heard. Yeah... been in s imilar situation with an older guy as my utility. It was a bit frustrating at times. I liked the guy and learned tons from him - but he was not a good swtchman/brakeman/utility/whatever. He needed to be the conductor.
All T&E on my carrier start out as switchman trainees...after rules class they mark up and work a probationary period of 90 days, in which time anyone of us can "turn" (remove them from service) them for justified reason...rules violations, un safe practice, simply not catching on to what we do, so forth and so on.
zugmannIt's amazing how much you could shift in a yard with a good conductor/brakeman combo.
I see it every time I run our trains with just an engineer and a conductor. Runarounds take just that much longer... And the conductor walks just that much further...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
A switchman? Such a rare breed anymore. It's amazing how much you could shift in a yard with a good conductor/brakeman combo. Now so many crews are one man, or with a utility that can't work over 8 hours.
I'll withhold further opinions, lest I get myself in trouble.
They leave out empty.
Loved the description.
The IGN
Thanks Ed!
After an incoming train gets unloaded, would it be reloaded with outgoing containers before leaving, or would it leave empty?
We drag in, and fill up on average 3 of the yard tracks, as per their instructions.
The locomotives stay there with the train.
Occasionaly we will put a cut in the ramp, but they have a specific order they want the train put away so they can unload it in a given manner.
They have a crew that moves the cars around as they wish, with the road power, and they assemble the empty in the yard tracks, leaving the locomotives there.
Ok, so they coordinate the different railroads, and give you permission for the rail ramp.
Could you tell me some more about what happens when you arrive or leave with a train at the rail ramp, like you did about Vopak.
For example when you arrive with a loaded unit train, do you go to the loading/unloading area directly, or to the “yard tracks” next to the ramp? How many of the tracks would the train normally fill up, and is it the road engines that split the train? Also, would engines that bring in a train wait until there’s an outgoing train they can take with them, or would there be light engines moves to and from the rail ramp? Maybe some UP engines go to Strang in between assignments?
Mattias
The PTRA main is ours, but dispatched by the Joint Dispatch Center is Spring Texas, they control the entire Metroplex...
We have to get permission to go into the ramp and the Cut...Both BNSF and UP deliver unit trains to our Pasadena yard, our crews run them out to the Cut, and both BNSF and UP can us the UP main to acess the Cut too.
Looking at the Rail Network Map from the PTRA homepage there is the New PTRA main to Barbours cut. Do the tracks around the Barbours Cut Container Terminal belong to PTRA? How about the intermodal rail ramp and the spurs to the nearby transloading terminals? Who can operate on those tracks and on whose permission?
According to the Port of Houston Authority’s webpage the rail ramp is operated by a contractor, but the primary railroad companies are BNSF, UP, and PTRA. I’ve also read that Frontier Logistics have a switch crew that works their terminal at Barbours Cut.
I’m guessing it takes some coordination to let everybody do their part.
A standard crew on the PTRA is an engineer, a switch engine foreman, and a switchman.
The switchman and engine foreman both are certified conductors, qualified and licensed under federal rules and requirements, and the engineer has a federal license also.
We are qualified to run on some portions of the UP and BNSF in CTC mainline, hence we carry their rulebooks also.
The request to 'hire" a crew has not, as far as I know, been made since I came to work here in 97....I would imagine it was a little more common back in the day before these industries aquired their own switch crews and locomotives.
Ed, how big a crew is included. Two or three? How often is this charge invoked?
My dad was involved with tariff's and practiced before the ICC. He knew all the rules. Also wrote atricles (under a pen name) for trains back in the late 1940's. One was about how to use optional routings that the railroads offered that let you go say from Chicago to New York via many different routes and have stop overs in various cities. You could go on the Pennsylvania direct via Pittsburg and Philly, or for the same fare, go via Washington DC, or go via Columbus OH. It was "How to Use Optional Routes, April 1947, Volume 7, No 6" So I appreciate seeing the tariff. The Official Guides of the early 70's had Amtraks tariff.
Thanks for the link to the tariff Ed. I am an old Traffic Guy and enjoy reading tariffs. Not too many freebies I could find in there, but didnt look too closely.
So, I could rent a train (engine and crew) for $7000 for 8 hours....sounds like fun.
Port Terminal Railroad Association - Tariff
Ed:You seriously need to write a book on local operations. This has been a fantastic review of how "stuff works" on a railroad.
Years ago when I would go out to take photos, it was always the mainline trains that were sought out. Today it is the local train operations which seems far more interesting. The South Shore runs a nice local to Kingsbury, In on Tuesdays and Thursdays which I have been considering following. Not nearly as complex as Houston, but fascinating in it's own sense.
Regarding intra plant switch moves...what is a typical charge for that service? Are tariff rates usually applied or are those negoitated with customers? I could see relationships back in the day in which a "you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" were arranged between local traffic managers and crews...perhaps in the form of a dinner or rule G violation.
Most of my trucking customers have locater type hardware, such as Sky Bitz, which monitors exact locations of the trailers at all times. What about railcars? Would that help in exact locations and placements?Ed
edblysard Pretty much whatever order they fall in. Once we get the cars back to one of our yards, we will switch them into cuts for BNSF, UP and KCS interchange...our "captive shippers" are only captive to us, once we get the car, we can send it out on any of our three member lines the customer wants.
Pretty much whatever order they fall in.
Once we get the cars back to one of our yards, we will switch them into cuts for BNSF, UP and KCS interchange...our "captive shippers" are only captive to us, once we get the car, we can send it out on any of our three member lines the customer wants.
Ed, when the PTRA switch crew get the pulls from plants like Vopak. Does the first hazmat car need to be some cars away from the engine?
If that's so, do the Vopak crew see to that when they gather the pulls (even though they don't block the rest of the cars), or do your crew have to sort that out?
So it's a combination of following the rules about who can go where, after geting permission, and finding a routine that works for both parties, like you've done with Vopak.
Do the Vopak crew (or any of the other in house switch crews) any blocking of the cars before you pull them, or do they just leave the cars in what ever order that's convenient to them?
Dakguy201 If an industry has its own switching operation, what kind of arrangements exist between your railroad and them to insure you don't interfere with one another and stay out of one another's work area?
If an industry has its own switching operation, what kind of arrangements exist between your railroad and them to insure you don't interfere with one another and stay out of one another's work area?
10th column from the left, next to the one that's says "Destination track"...If the car has a specific spot on that track it would note there by number, 01, 02, 03 so forth and so on.
Darkguy...most of the industries we serve get switched by us at pretty much the same time of the day for them and most have gates and derails, both locked with their lock.
With the exception of Solvay, and Greensport, their crews are not licensed, therefor they can't come out on PTRA tracks....because they already know about when we will show up, they usually get their work done and get back in the clear...and we have to call our dispatcher/yardmaster, have that person call the rail operations manager of the plant, and get permission to come in.
Once permission is granted, a designated person from the plant or one of their rail crew will un-lock and remove the derail, and un-lock and open the gates.
In most instances, the PTRA owns the switch and the first 20 to 50 feet of the track leading onto the plant, from that point on, the track belongs to the industry, so the gates and derails are their responsibility...I can't open a gate out here even if the plant guy says I can...if the gate keeper fails, (and they do) and the gate swings shut while we are shoving in, if I opened the gate, we just bought a gate and some fencing....keep in mind that most of the railroads guys are working assigned jobs, they do the same thing every day, and both they and the plant crews end up creating a routine...
Vopak gets worked by us around 4 o:clock every day, so their crew usually gets done around 3:30, and because we spot the same track every time, they will run their switch engine up, open the gate, drop the derail, go back, line us up for the spot track, and tuck their switch engine out of the way and go on with their other duties. They will call our yardmaster on the phone, tell him the gates are open, derail down and that we can come on in at our leisure...we go looking of course, but the same basic routine.
Most places, on my railroad and most of the other carriers will function pretty much the same way...they cant come out on our tracks, and we cant go in on theirs without permission.
edblysard No spots, but there are cars assigned to most of the tracks shown, they just have no order to be in when spotted...and yes, all those customers have their own in house switch crews. If you look at the switch list, lines 29 through 33 go to Vopak, see the the destination track, 798, and right next to it the spot order, which in this instance is SA, or "spot anywhere" on track 798.
No spots, but there are cars assigned to most of the tracks shown, they just have no order to be in when spotted...and yes, all those customers have their own in house switch crews.
If you look at the switch list, lines 29 through 33 go to Vopak, see the the destination track, 798, and right next to it the spot order, which in this instance is SA, or "spot anywhere" on track 798.
Ok, that explains it. I wondered which info in the switch list was the spotting instruction too.
Where a industry has it's own crew(s). There will either be designated track(s) where deliveries to and receipts from the industry will be transacted without any need to contact the industry or the Railroad crew must contact a specific employee position for permission to enter the plant.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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