The Belmont station/overpass in Downers Grove was part of the CREATE program (one of the first parts, IIRC). As such, some federal money would have been involved.I don't think lack of right-of-way would be a problem at Joliet. The ATSF/GM&O routing was always four tracks wide, with a platform between some of them. RI also used to be four tracks, and it's now down to one.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I though New York was spelled 'Over Budget'. Public, private it don't matter.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
10 million isn't bad for a NY station. The Albany / ren NY station was about 20 plus million over little things like signaling, track connections with csx and oh a parking garage.
The cdta didn't have a lease with Amtrak for the new station. When it was time to move in Amtrak refused, the proposed rent was to high. So the new station remained vacant till a new lease was hammered out at the same rent as the old building. About 10 years later they final finished the station adding the 4th platform.
So it goes with nys station building.
There really is nothing that fancy here that would cost big bucks besides Schenectady has a long history of epic failure-seehttp://www.schenectadyhistory.org/schenectady/shovelready/07.html
PNWRMNM This is an apples to oranges comparison. All the NY story says is that they got one only one bid, for aproximately $25 million. They have a budget of $15 million. My first thought is that not a lot of effort was spent to keep the design within the cost constraints. Second thought is that, as C&O implies, the Federal Davis-Bacon Act, or "prevailing wage" law, which really means whatever the highest labor rate the Federal Government can find, is to blame. I have a hard time believing that. If the sponsors were too ignorant to know that Davis-Bacon applies to this project they deserve the sticker shock they got. I am not in construction, but was told by the Chief Engineer of a county in Eastern Washington that Davis-Bacon added about one third to the cost of any job. The BNSF job, on its surface, was probably not a Davis-Bacon job, but was likely handled by the BNSF on a 'force account' basis. That is BNSF employees were used, paid their regular rates, and charged to the job, probably with about a 10% markup for overhead costs. Railroad labor is not cheap. IIRC Davis Bacon does not apply to railroad jobs done on a force account basis since the railroad employees are all union.
This is an apples to oranges comparison.
All the NY story says is that they got one only one bid, for aproximately $25 million. They have a budget of $15 million. My first thought is that not a lot of effort was spent to keep the design within the cost constraints. Second thought is that, as C&O implies, the Federal Davis-Bacon Act, or "prevailing wage" law, which really means whatever the highest labor rate the Federal Government can find, is to blame. I have a hard time believing that. If the sponsors were too ignorant to know that Davis-Bacon applies to this project they deserve the sticker shock they got.
I am not in construction, but was told by the Chief Engineer of a county in Eastern Washington that Davis-Bacon added about one third to the cost of any job.
The BNSF job, on its surface, was probably not a Davis-Bacon job, but was likely handled by the BNSF on a 'force account' basis. That is BNSF employees were used, paid their regular rates, and charged to the job, probably with about a 10% markup for overhead costs. Railroad labor is not cheap. IIRC Davis Bacon does not apply to railroad jobs done on a force account basis since the railroad employees are all union.
Davis-Bacon only applies to Federally-funded construction. Unless Federal funds were involved, BNSF wasn't required to use Davis-Bacon wage rates.
PNWRMNMNot quite. Davis-Bacon is a federal requirement. If Federal funds are involved, DB applies. Some states have similar requirements.
NY is undoubtedly one of them, as I know we've had to deal with the issue regarding fire departments. Although such projects often involve federal grants and loans as well....
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Tree,
Not quite. Davis-Bacon is a federal requirement. If Federal funds are involved, DB applies. Some states have similar requirements.
The context of the comment I referred to was a four or five crossing grade crossing signal installation project paid for with Federal Funds. My boss, the short line owner, did not want to fuss with Federal accounting rules to get reimbursed so he refused to have our signal guys do the work on force account basis. That meant the county had to put it out for bid and DB applied.
The county engineer made the comment in the larger context that he would have much preferred that we, a non-union short line, would have been cheaper since DB would not have applied, and we (the railroad) would not have had to ride herd on the contactor like we did. His statement was that DB does not apply to projects done by railroad forces, even if involves federal money.
I am not a labor lawyer, I am simply reporting what someone who knew a lot more about it than I did said.
PNWRMNMIIRC Davis Bacon does not apply to railroad jobs done on a force account basis since the railroad employees are all union.
I believe the key with Davis-Bacon is public funding. If you can figure out how to have a private person (or organization) build something using non-union labor, they can sell (or lease) it to the public agency when it's done, clearly at a savings, and probably over the objections of local labor.
It's not easy to find anyone who can (or will) fund a project at that level, however.
But in Downers Grove, the BNSF (& Metra) built the Belmont Rd underpass and modernized the Belmont Rd station with a new separate pedestrian underpass and maintained traffic. They had one advantage that Joliet did not have: A Row wide enough to maintain three tracks most of the time as there had originally been a center track platform. They move one track and then respaced them. Also there was only one railroad to deal with As Mastercard used to advertise, thats "PRICELESS." Also the RR was happy to eliminate a grade crossing and a separate pedestrian crossing.
Here is why it costs 5 times as much to build in New York State as anyplace else-
http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/albany/2015/09/8578215/non-union-contractors-assail-change-state-fair-rfp
Only one bidder in a a metro area(Albany NY) that has at least 20 construction firms,also the bidder must be Union and pay prevaling wages and located in New York State. No politics here its just the way the laws are written here as Federal Funds are being used and unions have always been and will always be a big part of the game here in supporting Candidates. Also the train station has been on the drawing board and ready to go for the last 10 years. BTW how big of a house could I get for 25,000,000.00?
http://www.dailygazette.com/news/2016/mar/04/0304_trainstation/?print
Meanwhile across the country Joliet IL new train station is ONLY 2.4 million over budget see-
http://www.theherald-news.com/2014/05/13/commuter-colossus/axgdv78/?page=1
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