Only one bidder in a a metro area(Albany NY) that has at least 20 construction firms,also the bidder must be Union and pay prevaling wages and located in New York State. No politics here its just the way the laws are written here as Federal Funds are being used and unions have always been and will always be a big part of the game here in supporting Candidates. Also the train station has been on the drawing board and ready to go for the last 10 years. BTW how big of a house could I get for 25,000,000.00?
http://www.dailygazette.com/news/2016/mar/04/0304_trainstation/?print
Meanwhile across the country Joliet IL new train station is ONLY 2.4 million over budget see-
http://www.theherald-news.com/2014/05/13/commuter-colossus/axgdv78/?page=1
Here is why it costs 5 times as much to build in New York State as anyplace else-
http://www.capitalnewyork.com/article/albany/2015/09/8578215/non-union-contractors-assail-change-state-fair-rfp
But in Downers Grove, the BNSF (& Metra) built the Belmont Rd underpass and modernized the Belmont Rd station with a new separate pedestrian underpass and maintained traffic. They had one advantage that Joliet did not have: A Row wide enough to maintain three tracks most of the time as there had originally been a center track platform. They move one track and then respaced them. Also there was only one railroad to deal with As Mastercard used to advertise, thats "PRICELESS." Also the RR was happy to eliminate a grade crossing and a separate pedestrian crossing.
This is an apples to oranges comparison.
All the NY story says is that they got one only one bid, for aproximately $25 million. They have a budget of $15 million. My first thought is that not a lot of effort was spent to keep the design within the cost constraints. Second thought is that, as C&O implies, the Federal Davis-Bacon Act, or "prevailing wage" law, which really means whatever the highest labor rate the Federal Government can find, is to blame. I have a hard time believing that. If the sponsors were too ignorant to know that Davis-Bacon applies to this project they deserve the sticker shock they got.
I am not in construction, but was told by the Chief Engineer of a county in Eastern Washington that Davis-Bacon added about one third to the cost of any job.
The BNSF job, on its surface, was probably not a Davis-Bacon job, but was likely handled by the BNSF on a 'force account' basis. That is BNSF employees were used, paid their regular rates, and charged to the job, probably with about a 10% markup for overhead costs. Railroad labor is not cheap. IIRC Davis Bacon does not apply to railroad jobs done on a force account basis since the railroad employees are all union.
PNWRMNMIIRC Davis Bacon does not apply to railroad jobs done on a force account basis since the railroad employees are all union.
I believe the key with Davis-Bacon is public funding. If you can figure out how to have a private person (or organization) build something using non-union labor, they can sell (or lease) it to the public agency when it's done, clearly at a savings, and probably over the objections of local labor.
It's not easy to find anyone who can (or will) fund a project at that level, however.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Tree,
Not quite. Davis-Bacon is a federal requirement. If Federal funds are involved, DB applies. Some states have similar requirements.
The context of the comment I referred to was a four or five crossing grade crossing signal installation project paid for with Federal Funds. My boss, the short line owner, did not want to fuss with Federal accounting rules to get reimbursed so he refused to have our signal guys do the work on force account basis. That meant the county had to put it out for bid and DB applied.
The county engineer made the comment in the larger context that he would have much preferred that we, a non-union short line, would have been cheaper since DB would not have applied, and we (the railroad) would not have had to ride herd on the contactor like we did. His statement was that DB does not apply to projects done by railroad forces, even if involves federal money.
I am not a labor lawyer, I am simply reporting what someone who knew a lot more about it than I did said.
PNWRMNMNot quite. Davis-Bacon is a federal requirement. If Federal funds are involved, DB applies. Some states have similar requirements.
NY is undoubtedly one of them, as I know we've had to deal with the issue regarding fire departments. Although such projects often involve federal grants and loans as well....
PNWRMNM This is an apples to oranges comparison. All the NY story says is that they got one only one bid, for aproximately $25 million. They have a budget of $15 million. My first thought is that not a lot of effort was spent to keep the design within the cost constraints. Second thought is that, as C&O implies, the Federal Davis-Bacon Act, or "prevailing wage" law, which really means whatever the highest labor rate the Federal Government can find, is to blame. I have a hard time believing that. If the sponsors were too ignorant to know that Davis-Bacon applies to this project they deserve the sticker shock they got. I am not in construction, but was told by the Chief Engineer of a county in Eastern Washington that Davis-Bacon added about one third to the cost of any job. The BNSF job, on its surface, was probably not a Davis-Bacon job, but was likely handled by the BNSF on a 'force account' basis. That is BNSF employees were used, paid their regular rates, and charged to the job, probably with about a 10% markup for overhead costs. Railroad labor is not cheap. IIRC Davis Bacon does not apply to railroad jobs done on a force account basis since the railroad employees are all union.
Davis-Bacon only applies to Federally-funded construction. Unless Federal funds were involved, BNSF wasn't required to use Davis-Bacon wage rates.
There really is nothing that fancy here that would cost big bucks besides Schenectady has a long history of epic failure-seehttp://www.schenectadyhistory.org/schenectady/shovelready/07.html
10 million isn't bad for a NY station. The Albany / ren NY station was about 20 plus million over little things like signaling, track connections with csx and oh a parking garage.
The cdta didn't have a lease with Amtrak for the new station. When it was time to move in Amtrak refused, the proposed rent was to high. So the new station remained vacant till a new lease was hammered out at the same rent as the old building. About 10 years later they final finished the station adding the 4th platform.
So it goes with nys station building.
I though New York was spelled 'Over Budget'. Public, private it don't matter.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The Belmont station/overpass in Downers Grove was part of the CREATE program (one of the first parts, IIRC). As such, some federal money would have been involved.I don't think lack of right-of-way would be a problem at Joliet. The ATSF/GM&O routing was always four tracks wide, with a platform between some of them. RI also used to be four tracks, and it's now down to one.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
It's popular to bash prevailing wage projects and make claims about how much more expensive they are, but many of those claims lack detailed factual support. The 1/3 more expensive claim is incredible - as in not believable.
Prevailing wage projects are typically not more than 10% costlier than the same project at local non-union wage rates. The higher wage % are 'diluted' by everything else that has identical costs for both a 'rated job' and a non-union one, such as: materials, sales taxes, equipment rentals, overhead and profit for the contractor, permit fees, special services and items that are not subject to prevailing wages (ex.: truck drivers who only deliver to or pickup from the site). The added cost gets higher than that % only when there are little materials and equipment involved: painting is a good example.
Prevailing wages don't include the union contract rules regarding manning and other non-cash aspects, which sometimes gives non-union contractors a non-cash operating / productivity advantage. Also, sometimes the higher union-scale wages attract more qualified and efficient tradesmen than the lower-paid non-union wages do, to the extent that the higher productivity offsets the higher wages.
The only way to know the % for sure - if you're not a high-level employee of the contractor, or very familiar with the cost components - is to have at least 2 bids for the exact same scope, quantities, quality, schedule, and general conditions of the project - the old "apples to apples" cliche.
These comments are based on my 40+ years in the construction industry and experience with prevailing wage projects - both Federal and Pennsylvania - at many different levels, particularly as an estimator for railroad track construction, and project manager or similar in many other companies.
I have no particular favor for or against prevailing wages, but it's better that we know the facts than rely on bombastic claims.
- Paul North.
Davis Bacon wage rates are available online at http://www.wdol.gov/. The rates vary quite a bit between counties and also based on the type of construction, so it's hard to say what the impact of the wage rates would be. Additionally, some government projects will have DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) requirements. These requirements could require that a certain percentage of the work will be performed by contractors/subcontractors that may fall into one of the DBE categories (WBE - Women-owned Business Enterprise, MBE - Minority Business Enterprise, etc). The percentage and the type of DBE requirement could have an affect on the bottom line. I don't know if that was in play for this project, but I've seen it affect projects in the past.
Beyond that, the gross underestimation could be the result of several factors. One of the largest that I'm still seeing is budgeting based on construction rates during the height of the recession. There's a lot more work around right now, so construction rates are higher than they were in 2008.Another factor is that whoever set the budget didn't really look very closely at what was actually present in the plans. This happens a lot. I bid a commercial retail project about a year ago that had some really funky steel connections on it. Normally a retail space will be fairly straight-forward "box" construction for the steel industry and the owner/GC were expecting a price significantly below what I quoted. They were only basing their budget on a square footage price for standard commercial retail construction. When I explained the complex connections, it surprised them, but explained why it was happening. This led to a round of VE (Value Engineering) in which the engineer simplified the connections and we subsequently lowered the price.Finally, I'll bid some projects higher just because of the owner. There are a couple of government agencies out here that are complete nightmares to work for. Because of that, I estimate far higher than I would for other owners/general contractors. By virtue of the fact that there was only one bidder and that bidder was significantly higher than the project budget, I would tend to guess that whoever is footing the bill here might not be the easiest to work for.Just a few bits an pieces from a guy that gets to professionally guess all day long.
-ChrisWest Chicago, ILChristopher May Fine Art Photography"In wisdom gathered over time I have found that every experience is a form of exploration." ~Ansel Adams
For those interested, plans and bid documents are available online:https://www.dot.ny.gov/doing-business/opportunities/const-contract-docs?p_d_id=D263006Just after a very, very quick perusal of the bid packet, I see DBE participation of 8.5%, a bid bond requirement of 25% (which is going to eliminate a lot of firms...that's a hefty bond requirement on a decent sized project. Typically we see 10% out here.), Buy-America provisions, Davis-Bacon wage rates, etc. If I were bidding this, I'd be thinking expensive right from the get-go.ADDENDUM: The specific wage decision for this particular project is in the Proposal Book 6 PDF file. I can't comment on how these relate to non Davis-Bacon projects because I don't know what labor goes for in New York.
From what I see out of my roomette window, New York is getting some very nice stations: Syracuse, Utica, Albany, and now the City that Hauls and Lights the World. Yes, you Knickerbockers are paying more, but you're getting more. It looks like New York believes that passenger trains will be around in the future; here in Ohio, we are all set for 1965. But our taxes are lower! Big Whoopee.
Buffalo, you gotta be next; New York City...maybe by 2100.
Now, as the Lake Shore Limited travels between these two modern passenger stations (SDY & ALB), will there still be only one track between them?
Utica Union Station was built in 1914 to serve NYC, O&W, and Lackawanna.
Once NYC moved out the county eventually took it over. Several county offices are located there, in addition to intercity buses, Amtrak, and the Adirondack Scenic.
They Syracuse station, while new, is also intermodal. Sure beats the shack they were using on the east side of town.
The city of buffola and amtrak needs to look at moving back into central terminal. A land mark building on the lines of Utica central and grand Central. It would not only serve Amtrak but could help with the cities revitalization.
Here is what you get in Ohio for only 8 million 2 platforms and ped bridge with two elevators and no indoor waiting station-
http://chronicle.northcoastnow.com/2015/01/21/lorain-county-commissioners-weigh-9-million-amtrak-project/
ROBERT WILLISON The city of buffola and amtrak needs to look at moving back into central terminal. A land mark building on the lines of Utica central and grand Central. It would not only serve Amtrak but could help with the cities revitalization.
PDN> Notice your mention of sales taxes. Down here a government agency can buy materials and not have to pay taxes. Of course it is much easier to buy substadard materials if gov buys. Speaking from bitter experience.
CopCarSS[snipped - PDN] . . .Just a few bits an pieces from a guy that gets to professionally guess all day long.
Back when I was doing mostly estimating of railroad track projects, the Atlantic City casinos opened (first ones east of Las Vegas). One foreman who was addicted to such things asked me "Are you going there ?". I thought for a moment, and then told Jesse: "Nahh, why bother ? I already get to gamble with millions of dollars of old man Yoder's money every day !"
NKP guy Now, as the Lake Shore Limited travels between these two modern passenger stations (SDY & ALB), will there still be only one track between them?
Excerpt from Rochester Democrat & Chronicle, Apr. 19
http://www.democratandchronicle.com/story/news/2016/04/19/amtrak-reduces-upstate-service/83224628/
Amtrak normally runs four eastbound passenger trains and four westbound trains each day that connect Rochester with other upstate cities and provide connections to New York City, Chicago and beyond. As of Sunday, however, one train in each direction will be put on hiatus until mid-July.
The reduction in trains is in effect Sundays through Wednesdays. All four daily trains will run on Thursdays, Fridays and Saturdays.
Bruce Becker, president of the Empire State Passenger Association, which advocates for New York state rail passengers, said his group was disappointed with the arrangement…
The reason for the reductions and expected delays is major rehabilitation work planned for the two tracks that carry both passenger and freight trains across upstate New York. The tracks are owned by CSX Transportation, upstate’s dominant freight railroad...
There is some good news for upstate Amtrak riders, however — the railroad lay track this summer on a 17-mile-long stretch of right-of-way between Schenectady and Rensselaer.
The stretch now has just a single CSX-owned track that must be shared by freights and Amtrak trains. It’s considered Amtrak’s worst bottleneck in upstate New York and is responsible for many of the late arrivals in Rochester of westbound trains.
The new second track along that stretch, financed by federal grants and owned by Amtrak, should be in service by early next year at the latest, Becker said.
CopCarSS Davis Bacon wage rates are available online at http://www.wdol.gov/. The rates vary quite a bit between counties and also based on the type of construction, so it's hard to say what the impact of the wage rates would be. Additionally, some government projects will have DBE (Disadvantaged Business Enterprise) requirements. These requirements could require that a certain percentage of the work will be performed by contractors/subcontractors that may fall into one of the DBE categories (WBE - Women-owned Business Enterprise, MBE - Minority Business Enterprise, etc). The percentage and the type of DBE requirement could have an affect on the bottom line. I don't know if that was in play for this project, but I've seen it affect projects in the past. Beyond that, the gross underestimation could be the result of several factors. One of the largest that I'm still seeing is budgeting based on construction rates during the height of the recession. There's a lot more work around right now, so construction rates are higher than they were in 2008.Another factor is that whoever set the budget didn't really look very closely at what was actually present in the plans. This happens a lot. I bid a commercial retail project about a year ago that had some really funky steel connections on it. Normally a retail space will be fairly straight-forward "box" construction for the steel industry and the owner/GC were expecting a price significantly below what I quoted. They were only basing their budget on a square footage price for standard commercial retail construction. When I explained the complex connections, it surprised them, but explained why it was happening. This led to a round of VE (Value Engineering) in which the engineer simplified the connections and we subsequently lowered the price.Finally, I'll bid some projects higher just because of the owner. There are a couple of government agencies out here that are complete nightmares to work for. Because of that, I estimate far higher than I would for other owners/general contractors. By virtue of the fact that there was only one bidder and that bidder was significantly higher than the project budget, I would tend to guess that whoever is footing the bill here might not be the easiest to work for.Just a few bits an pieces from a guy that gets to professionally guess all day long.
The Davis-Bacon building construction rates would apply to this project, since it's mostly or completely building construction. Everything else he says is exactly right.
The Technical Representative (engineer or technician in charge of technical questions/decisions) can also have a big effect on bid prices. I once worked with an engineer whose projects always cost about 10% more than those run by others, partly because he was so strict about compliance with the letter of the contract and partly because his personality was composed of equal parts rattlesnake venom, skunk juice and porcupine quills. The design engineers actually took this into account when estimating projects to be run by this engineer.
The promptness with which the owner pays the monthly progress payments can also be a factor in construction bids. Entities which are slow in making payments force their contractors to have more working capital with which to pay their subs and finance their own operations (usually borrowed money which carries interest charges).
Here is the home you get for Ten Million Dollers-
http://www.houzz.com/ten-million-dollar-homes
https://www.google.com/search?q=Prince's+house+paisley+park&biw=1536&bih=789&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwj_w4LWwKDMAhUKQyYKHcHnCqsQ_AUICCgD&dpr=1.25#imgrc=lBGW5W9JsBjcpM%3A
Another big factor is unknown subsurface conditions - anything from voids in limestone rock, higher and harder layers of rock, high groundwater, soft clays or sand, etc.; and there's man-made things like left-over foundations from former buildings, old tracks, contaminated former building materials (lead and asbestos), contaminated ground or groundwater, buried drums, unknown utility lines, etc.
Once the building is 'out of the ground', the rest of the construction process - and its costs - should be pretty predictable.
Paul_D_North_Jr Another big factor is unknown subsurface conditions - anything from voids in limestone rock, higher and harder layers of rock, high groundwater, soft clays or sand, etc.; and there's man-made things like left-over foundations from former buildings, old tracks, contaminated former building materials (lead and asbestos), contaminated ground or groundwater, buried drums, unknown utility lines, etc. Once the building is 'out of the ground', the rest of the construction process - and its costs - should be pretty predictable. - Paul North.
Very true. I was once involved with a warehouse construction just outside Memphis, on a spot which was already cleared and relatively level. Piece of cake, right? WRONG! The site was near a sizable complex of buildings which was built 25+ years earlier, and of course none of the people working there had been there when the complex was built.
The six feet or so down from the ground surface was a very nasty plastic clay. The site was in the New Madrid Fault potential earthquake zone, so the clay had to go. Large $ contract modification. When the unsuitable material was removed, the contractor found all the construction trash and debris from construction of the nearby complex. Another large $ contract modification. When removing the construction debris, a considerable quantity of what was believed to be asbestos was discovered in the debris. This was the poor contracting officer's first construction contract of any size, and at this point she was about ready to lose her mind.
The stuff discovered in the debris turned out to not be asbestos, so that particular agony didn't happen. After suitable fill material was brought in to fill in the giant hole left by removing the unsuitable material and debris (another large $ contract modification), the project settled down and was more or less normal until completion. It was certainly a baptism of fire for the new contracting officer.
Hubby and I are paranoid when it comes to any construction that goes on at our house. Why we live in the most undermined city in the State of IL. 99.9% of this city is supported by room and pillars coal mines from over 100 years ago. Now the fun part. Those mines for years where used as the city sewer until the 80's and then the EPA forced a true sewage treatment system on the city. It is nothing to have 3-4 mine collaspes in this town a year.
When it came time to insure the house he first required Mine subsistance and then eartquake. The agent looked at him and said why the second. He said we are in the New Madrid Fault area I am not going to go thru that sucker going off having my house Collaspe or the mine fail and you guys go sorry not covered. He thinks a little to far ahead for me sometimes.
Also, by definition station construction is right next to active - and sometimes very busy - tracks. That can cause delays to work next to the tracks, added costs for flagmen & waiting time for trains to pass, added protective measures such as fences, shields, shoring next to the tracks, scaffolding, etc., more difficulty in getting materials and equipment across or next to the tracks, etc.
All of that should have been set forth in the bid documents and contracts - but maybe the owner/ architect didn't know; or did know, but decided to absorb & pay the actual costs rather than force the contractor to add an unknown contingency $ amount, which may or may not actually be needed (contractor usually keeps it if not); or the railroad's operating patterns changed, etc.
Bottom line (quite literally): A detailed examination/ investigation of the history and facts is needed to figure out what went wrong and who's responsible. With an over-run that large, I'm sure that will happen - either through construction claims litigation, or an auditor/ comptroller investigation, etc.
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