Miningman Firelock76- Seen your reference to this book in other posts so thanks for recommendation. Have a ton of railroad books but not that one. Will do.
Firelock76- Seen your reference to this book in other posts so thanks for recommendation. Have a ton of railroad books but not that one. Will do.
I will caution you as to the accuracy of the book Wreck of the Penn Central, it has been noted to contain historical inaccuracies and although an attempt to be partial was made the book was written in haste to capitalize on the timing of the subject.
As recommened by others the Men Who Loved Train is a better choice, also the book No Way to Run A Railroad by Stephen Salsbury is another. Both written at a time after the dust had settled and clearer thinking prevailed. Others also available rather cheap from on line sellers.
I have read several items on the PC, interviewed employee's who lived the adventure of America's then biggest bankruptcy. Now the PC has gone the way of the Kennedy assination, so many fingers being pointed, ego's, bias opinions, hurt finances, inaccurate reporting, you just don't know who to believe.
For me America's two largest railroads didn't get that way because they were bad companies, they were both great in their day. As we ponder the PC it shadows the world of railroading around it and the problems and issues faced by many railroads, it just wasn't the PC. The PC is the poster child of the state of America's railroading at that time, a slap in the face that woke people up. So I wonder, if a "Stagers Act" had occured in 1960 rather than 1980 would the pain have been less, accomplishing what many feel would have resulted in something very similar to todays railroad structure. Undoubtedly as history shows, we needed a more cooperative and less restrictive government when came to railroads. They learned a harsh lesson, be thankful for Conrail.
Let the PC rest in peace, appreciate the study or being witness to two really good and sometimes entertaining railroads.
We Could/Should have done something like this with PS..... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=laySTZ0Kl2I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ly-tjrV27-w
Miningman, let me recommend a super book to you, I've mentioned it quite often, it's called "The Men Who Loved Trains." A major part of the book is devoted to the Penn Central, how it came about and the subsequent disaster. It was published several years ago but I don't think it's too hard to find. Trust me, once you start it's hard to put down, an outstanding business history.
Another book on the subject is "The Wreck Of The Penn Central" but as I've never read that one I can't comment on it. I think it was published back in the 1970's so it may be a bit harder to find.
According to "TMWLT" the Penn Central debacle came about due to corporate arrogance, incompetance, downright stupidity, and institutional inertia and blindness. Greed had very little to do with it.
There's also BCE Place in Toronto. I always thought that Penn's concourse was it's inspiration
https://search.yahoo.com/yhs/search?p=bce+place+toronto&ei=UTF-8&hspart=mozilla&hsimp=yhs-001
One additional note regarding Penn Station. The former Grand Trunk, later CN, union station in Ottawa, Canada's national capital, is a half scale replica of Penn Station. It barely survived the wreckers ball itself. It was slated for demolition in 1967 but that was Canada's Centennial Year of Confederation as a country and the government did not want a mess in the heart of the city during all the ongoing festivities. So it was postponed to the following year. Then it became a Government conference centre after some swivel servant pointed out there was a serious lack of meeting/conference space near the Parliment Buildings. It was that close to its demise. It is open to the public so if you wish to see what Penn Station looked like inside the waiting rooms take a trip to Ottawa. Of course the train sheds and tracks are long gone replaced by an expressway.
Firelock76- Ok thanks for that. The PRR showed its first signs of trouble in posting a loss in 1947 but I think it was widely considered a fixable glitch, a one of. When do you think the real demise of the PRR began in earnest. It really went downhill quite rapidly. I believe the Central Region of PRR held up the best. Correct me if I'm wrong on that.
Living in Southern Ontario at that time I had much more exposure to the NYC. The CASO (NYC) once superb high speed line fell into serious disrepair through deferred maintenance and non use. Such a shame and a waste. I vividly recall very long mail/express trains with pretty shabby looking baggage cars and beat up paint peeling E8's up front.
Never saw Penn Station but did arrive in Grand Central several times. You came within an inch of losing it but thank God wiser heads prevailed.
Don't let that forced smile on the face of Al Perlman fool you, he was NOT in favor of a merger with the PRR but was overruled by the NYC's board of directors. As a good soldier he went along with the plan but believed it wasn't going to end well for a variety of reasons such as different corporate cultures, the two 'roads essentially parallelling each other in an area where the "Rust Belt" phenomenon was well underway leaving both 'roads scrambling for shippers, and other reasons. The merger was akin to two drowning men grabbing onto each other for support. If there was to be any merger with anyone Perlman's advice was to make it a "point-to-point" merger with a stronger 'road, anyone other than the PRR.
After the merger Perlman's position was really without power in the new organization, which in the end worked to his advantage. He was one of the few people to emerge from the Penn Central debacle with his reputation pretty much intact.
NKP guy ramrod The place was filthy. I once asked a station emplyee why. He said that during the war. station staff was cut drastically and never replaced, Therefore, the dirt built up. The place looked (and smelt) terrible Women. were especially repulsed> So it was no surprise that there wasn't Much opposition to the demo An Episcopal priest I knew grew up in New Jersey in the late 1950's & 1960's, and knew enough about the reputation of the place so that for years, he said, he thought the phrase in the Lord's Prayer was "...and lead us not into Penn Station."
ramrod The place was filthy. I once asked a station emplyee why. He said that during the war. station staff was cut drastically and never replaced, Therefore, the dirt built up. The place looked (and smelt) terrible Women. were especially repulsed> So it was no surprise that there wasn't Much opposition to the demo
An Episcopal priest I knew grew up in New Jersey in the late 1950's & 1960's, and knew enough about the reputation of the place so that for years, he said, he thought the phrase in the Lord's Prayer was "...and lead us not into Penn Station."
Yes, my impression as well. I notice the pictures are from the glory years, in B&W mostly and even so, dark, almost gloomy.
GCT was a much better design, IMO.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
ramrod "I have to agree that the demo of Penn Stayion was abad thing almost any way you look at it. However, remember that there was no great outcry until it had been reduced to a oopen construction site, when it was way too late to reconsider. Why was that?" Not so. The 'Action Group for Better Architecture in New York" had an organized a protest to the destruction of PS on August 2, 1962, the group of 150 surrounded and picketed protesting the plan to demolish the building. This was before details of such were even announced. Other architectual organizations joined in the protest and petitioned the mayor of New York, Robert Wagner, to take action to stop or delay demolition. The problem, no legal authority at that time to do such. As stated in an editorial by the New York Times on October 30, 1963.."we will be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.". Another attempt to save PS before destruction was a proposal for the New York Port Authority buy the station. No one within such considered it. Ultimately the whole situation formed the Landmarks Preservation Commission and new legislation to support their efforts. Its first test and victory, saving Grand Central Terminal from selling air rights and resulting in a look similar to the PS's now Madison Square Garden.
"I have to agree that the demo of Penn Stayion was abad thing almost any way you look at it. However, remember that there was no great outcry until it had been reduced to a oopen construction site, when it was way too late to reconsider. Why was that?"
Not so.
The 'Action Group for Better Architecture in New York" had an organized a protest to the destruction of PS on August 2, 1962, the group of 150 surrounded and picketed protesting the plan to demolish the building. This was before details of such were even announced. Other architectual organizations joined in the protest and petitioned the mayor of New York, Robert Wagner, to take action to stop or delay demolition. The problem, no legal authority at that time to do such.
As stated in an editorial by the New York Times on October 30, 1963.."we will be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.".
Another attempt to save PS before destruction was a proposal for the New York Port Authority buy the station. No one within such considered it. Ultimately the whole situation formed the Landmarks Preservation Commission and new legislation to support their efforts. Its first test and victory, saving Grand Central Terminal from selling air rights and resulting in a look similar to the PS's now Madison Square Garden.
MiningmanIts all wrong because it's not in the spirit of free enterprise, responsibility, leadership, fairness, nation building and good intentions. I do not believe for a moment his intentions were honourable In any way.
Is this in the right thread?
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
The picture of Saunders and Perlman speaks volumes. They are pretty pleased with themselves. "Here we are, we pulled off the heist and boy are we rich. It's all ours to do with as we please." Reading on in the report in a years time 61% of Trainmasters, 81% of Transportation Superintendents, 44% of Division Superintentents ( 80% in a year and half) and all but one General Manager were replaced by people with less than a years experience. So they gutted the officer core. Ensuing choas creates lost cars and even whole trains, no billings or multiple billings. Cars kept in motion for lack of someone to go. Yards choked. The picture says "we know what's coming and it's going to be fun when we cut bait and watch it all go to hell". The picture says " we don't give a damn about employees or service or tradition". The picture says "I put Penn Station in a swamp in New Jersey, got stinking rich and no one could do anything about it. Man are we going to be wealthy". The picture says " You are all fools".
Its all wrong because it's not in the spirit of free enterprise, responsibility, leadership, fairness, nation building and good intentions. I do not believe for a moment his intentions were honourable In any way.
Ramrod/Firelock76- The City of New York, The State of New York and the Federal Government and the very top people of the mighty Pennsylvania RR all function in elite circles at these very high levels. These were important people, leaders, shakers, intellects. They knew better. Tax concessions, restoration/clean up monies could easily have been had even back then. The almighty buck won at all levels. The destruction of the PRR continued to its final demise.
Passenger revenue was never important to the bottom line. The demise of passenger trains was of benefit to the railroads.
I believe that today's remaining subterranean Penn Station is the busiest in America. It's functional but "Let them eat cake" comes to mind. Of course Washington Union Station has been restored to its former glory along with its raving reviews and self congratulatory pats on the head.
Well, we should look at the other side of the coin, at least for a bit.
It is true that with the slow death of the American passenger train Penn Station had become a "white elephant" that had outlived it's original purpose and was a drain on the PRR's finances. Certainly the building, if saved, could have been remodeled and repurposed internally for other uses, but remember back in the 60's few people, if any, even thought that way. "It's old, it's obsolete, it goes" was the prevailing mindset.
Look at it this way, maybe Penn Station had to die so others like Grand Central Terminal might live. Man's a funny animal, sometimes he needs a helluva wake-up call to realize what's going on around him and what he's going to lose if he's not careful.
Backtracking a bit to Stuart Saunders, he certainly wasn't an evil man, far from it, but instead of staying in the law department where he might have done some good he managed to "waterwalk" his way to the top of the heap eventually finding himself in a position that he was totally unfit to handle by training and temperament. It happens, in government, business, and the military. It's not for nothing Lawrence Peter came up with "The Peter Principle."
I have to agree that the demo of Penn Stayion was abad thing almost any way you look at it. However, remember that there was no great outcry until it had been reduced to a oopen construction site, when it was way too late to reconsider. Why was that? Didn't the city realize what they weere losing? I don't know, of course, but I think it might have been because PS had become infamous for its dirt. Iwas in and out of PS frequently during the late 40'2 and again in its final years. The place was filthy. I once asked a station emplyee why. He said that during the war. station staff was cut drastically and never replaced, Therefore, the dirt built up. The place looked (and smelt) terrible Women. were especially repulsed> So it was no surprise that there wasn't Much opposition to the demo. I think a lot of New Yorkers and commuters were actually happy to see it go.At least it seemed that way at the time. Yes, it's sad and a shme it'gone and never cleaned up. Sometimes I wonder if thePS was allowed to deteriorate on purpose. probably not. It was probably just one of those poor management practices the PRR had fallen into. Sad,really sad.
Wanswheel- Some superb digging up of historical information-top notch!
From the paper clip...."has pledged to stockholders his determination to restore the "Pennsy" to the forefront of the transportation industry" The phrase "Epic Fail" has not yet been invented.
....from the video clip he is boasting about the anticipated industrial expansion along the N&W that should translate into thousands of new carloadings....it means nothing, just empty rhetoric. Maybe the business all went to trucks or they lost more than they gained. There are no specifics about new signed contracts or any factual information. It's a bunch of hooey.
Was this man ever held accountable for the incredible economic failures that followed him, the desperation fixes and vast waste of capital and destruction that all came to light...no, they justified everything and danced their way through enriching themselves.
Wizlish Deggesty I thought that anyone who knew anything about railroads knew that you do not step on rails. You said it, not me! On the other hand... the idea of not stepping on rails is part of the 'culture of safety' that keeps people from being injured or killed. Why tell Saunders about that?...
Deggesty I thought that anyone who knew anything about railroads knew that you do not step on rails.
Johnny
Firelock76What happened to the hockey jersey photo? I don't think Mr. North was serious when he said he could live without it, unless he's a fan of another team
'Red' hot link to it is still there (right under the name plaque) and picture comes up when you click it.
DeggestyI thought that anyone who knew anything about railroads knew that you do not step on rails.
It's not true that Saunders went to N&W "briefly." He started with N&W in 1939 and worked his way up in the law department until serving as president from 1958 to 1963. It's ridiculous to say that he only became president to get rid of steam.
An equal helping of blame for Penn Station's loss must go to James Symes. Demolition was conceived and fully planned during his tenure. Symes became president in 1954, then chairman in 1959. Saunders took over as chairman on 10/1/1963 and the wrecking ball began swinging on 10/28/1963.
What happened to the hockey jersey photo? I don't think Mr. North was serious when he said he could live without it, unless he's a fan of another team.
And Deggesty, you made a VERY good point! Probably more profound than any of us realize. I mean, how do you lead veteran railroaders when you demonstrate your ignorance of a basic railroad safety rule?
We lost the Q1, then the S1 and S2, then the Q2's and T1's, all the Niagaras, all the Hudsons, then Penn Station, then the whole Pennsylania and New York Central Railroads. They took many with them. America lost too much too fast, facilitated by guys like Saunders. To your great credit the ruins of these roads were salvaged and made right again by Conrail, political will and necessity but I contend much of it should never have occurred in the first place.
Saunders went to the N&W briefly for one reason only and that was to destroy the last stubbornly holdout of steam. Was he smart ( obviously not) or the hit man put into place to bring it all down.
We still lament the whole thing because it is so unbelievable. Penn Station was a outright blatant crime.
His foot on a bar rail? I thought that anyone who knew anything about railroads knew that you do not step on rails.
Saunders possibly also saw himself as one of the great railroad tycoons: my memory of him is a large photo in Business Week magazine, 3 piece suit with watch chain across his belly posed with one foot on a rail. Just another master of the universe!
Rush Loving's "The Men Who Loved Trains" does a good job of telling the whole sordid Penn Central story as well. Corporate blindness, arrogance, refusal to see the handwriting on the wall, it's all in there.
It's a hard book to put down once you start it, trust me.
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