Tell me what s going on(as far as your rights to be near railroad property) in your area

[Anonymous]

All,
I am fed up with all this harassment from Police both railroad and civil .I am not on railroad property and I have a camera and just want to be left alone and do my thing. I am a retired railroad officer and photography is my hobby and I do respect railroad property.BUT I am on public property here in San Antonio, Tx and I get harassed almost every time I do my thing. I am going to the city councl about this I am trying to get a spot for all railfans to view and photograph the Union Pacific like they have in Flatonia Texas 100 miles east of San Antonio. TELL ME WHAT IS HAPPINING IN YOUR AREA (IN REGARDS TO HARASSMENT) AS I WILL USE THE FACTS ONLY TO TALK TO THE CITY COUNCIL and I hope to get this setteled.......Did the terriorists win I BELIEVE THEY DID.... LETS NOT SIT ON THIS......HOW ABOUT THIS NEW JERSEY!!!
Mike Wikman San Antonio

[dknelson]

Locally, my group watches CP trains at a public crossing on the south side of Milwaukee and we are not bothered. the local RR policeman knows us by sight and the local police have little concern. The only entity that shows some concern is the private security detail hired to protect a local water facility.
However I have been ordered off public property in Waukegan IL while photographing Metra trains at the depot there (this was the UP), and we were similarly ordered not to photograph Amtrak and Metra in the depot in Chicago
In general the UP takes the position that standing on public property is no excuse if you are capturing the image of their property -- sort of like some Native American tribes objected to having their photograph taken because it stole their spirit.
These are people trying to do their jobs and follow orders. If the orders seem idiotic, no argument there, but the source of the idiocy is in the suites in Omaha or New York City, not the guy you are dealing with.
Dave Nelson

[Junctionfan]

In my area, CN generally doesn't care with some researvations about being on their property. That's reasonable enough. A friend of mine was at the VIA station watching trains and two police officers from the Niagara Regional Police were interested in knowing why they were there when the station was closed. That was reasonable enough too because there has been vandalism going on so broken windows and such was on the police's mind likely. After the police were told they were interested in watching trains, one of the police officers noticed something in the back of my friend's car and asked about it. He showed him that it was some HO scale SD70MAC and some railcars. One of the police officers thought that was really cool and asked more questions about the hobby.

It all depends I guess on how present yourself appearance wise and how you address the questioners. Me personally, I never been stopped by a police officer before except one wanting to know if a specific train went through yet.

[rrnut282]

No problems here in the middle of nowhere. MOST people here recognize that we are far down the list of potential targets and live and act accordingly. If you're not on RR propert, it's OK. There is one exception. Up at the diamond of NS and CSX in St.Joe, a farmer living nearby harrasses everyone he sees. He yells at them to leave and says he is calling the RR cops, even though he knows you're on public property. I would ignore him, but I have heard he scares off many others.

[Anonymous]

Me no ether!

[Anonymous]

This got addressed in a recent law enforcement and railfans thread which I won't repeat.

In Manchester, Georgia, there's a nice platform- put up by the town, I believe- which overlooks the CSX junction between Atlanta, points south and points west. They have a scanner built in there set to a timer and a really neat set of maps up for reference. The local cops have plenty to do elsewhere and the crews on the trains going past (I think it's a crew change point) seem to enjoy having their pictures taken.

Your idea of setting up a train watcher spot, Hogger, is a good one. I think the railroads are more interested in maintaining good relations with local governments and a joint effort between the two would probably be a welcome idea. (Of course, it would probably be a really welcome idea if it didn't cost the railroad or the government anything- you can't argue with free as a cost.)

Personally, I've never run into a "railroad policeman" in person... I know they are certified (Academy trained) peace officers, at least in my working area of Alabama. (I am a sheriff's deputy in a rural Alabama county.) I've heard that they are mostly investigators who do theft investigations.

Seems to me that the TRAINS webcam and trainwatchers site in Rochelle got set up by the local government and TRAINS. Maybe some of the TRAINS folks could tell us what kind of coordination they did with the railroads in setting up the site?

Erik

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

In my area (south & southwest suburbs of Chicago) I haven't had any problems since I tend to stay on public roadways, grade crossings and overpasses. The only time that I was ever approached by a special agent was at Barr Yard and I obviously was in a place that I shouldn't have been. After the usual warning, he was good enough to advise me about approximate property lines and other limits when I asked about it.

[The Block House]

A few weeks ago there was a L&N Historical Socity convention in Memphis and the town was covered with train nuts. I went to the street crossing just east of the bridges over the Mississippi River and we were not harassed at all. I saw one RR Police car and a couple of City cars and no one stopped to ask what was going on. I live in NE Arkansas and as long as you stay on public property you are OK. I asked a UP cop how they feel and he said trains with more dagenerous goods in them will be watched more closely.

[Anonymous]

Believe it or not, I never get bothered, and I railfan in the general Philly/NYC area!

[JoeKoh]

Crews wave to me and matt. deshler is a a great spot to meet other railfans.We are out here in the country so taking train pics really isnt a problem. we follow the take pictures leave footprints rule.
stay safe
joe

[AlcoRS11Nut]

Here, I can get pretty close (I meant close...I could touch them), but someother people that I know can bearly take a picture with out drawing some suspcison, it's kinda weird.

[paulsafety]

Here in the New York City area, the MTA is again pushing to ban any photography in the subways as a safety and security measure.

I'm not trying to stir up a debate here on the board, just alerting anyone who would like to offer comments for or against this proposed ruling (some may feel that a sucessful ban here could be the precedent for additional photo bans at other transit authorities or railroads.)

http://www.mta.nyc.ny.us/nyct/rules/proposed.htm has more detail, and how to contribute your voice/opinion to the process.

You may also want to look at the detailed writings and links to news articles posted at http://nycsubway.org/

There will be no public hearings on this issue and there is a January 10th deadline for submitting any comments to the board.

Paul F.

[techguy57]

Hogger - where in San Antonio are you photoing from? I didn't have any problems last time I was down there, except near the UP maintenance facility near the Big Red bottling plant. One of the workers said we were on RR property (I don't think we actually were) and we graciously moved.

As for around the Chicago area, I haven't had any problems to date with either the local cops or the rr cops. I'm sure it'll happen sooner or later.

Mike

[peterjenkinson1956]

when i have visited the U S A i have i have had no problems...to ban taking photographs is just plain dumb..dont you know that terrorists would use a mobile phone to photograph a facility and transmit the photo directly to mr bin laden...train fans are the greatest resource the railroads could use to protect their property as they seam to know every detail of the railroads...reminds me of when i was on vacation in vietnam..when i tried to photograph the saigon railway station the police stood infront of me..i still got the photo by asking my wife to stand infront of the station....peter

[paulsafety]

...in light recent national and international events that have underscored the need for heightened security measures throughout the transit system, a reinstatement of a prohibition that existed until the early 1990's against photography, filming, and video recording in transit facilities and on transit conveyances without prior authorization except for members of the press.... Consideration was given to restricting photography, etc. of sensitive areas only. However it was felt that a less restrictive approach would not yield the necessary security enhancements and given the nature of the activities in question enforcement of a rule which required law enforcement personnel to make a judgement of the precise subject matter being photographed would be highly problematic. -- NYS Register, November 24, 2004, pp. 15-16.

http://www.dos.state.ny.us/info/register/2004/nov24/pdfs/rules.pdf

Its this last statement about making it easier to enforce that got me thinking....what if a class 1 railroad took the same stance that ANY photo of their equipment was subject to the rule regardless of intent or purpose? This does stipulate while on their property or on their trains, but is it really that difficult to see how it can be applied to public property near facilities?

Again, my point is not to create a long string of notes, but to signal a concern that this could be the first step in a long line of "no photos, no exceptions" rules. And, while I mainly model the steam era (not dependant on my photographing my modeling prototypes), I still like to take photos of my trips into the city and the occasional railfan jaunt. I'd rather not be hassled, and I would be happy to provide ID to a police officer upon his or her request (ie cooperate, but not waive my 4th amendment rights because of a "photo ban").

[espeefoamer]

There is a group of us fans that watch trains at the Fullerton Amtrak station every weekend with no problems.However,I know several fans who have been chased off the platform at the Riverside station.I don't know if this is a Metrolink rule or a city prohibition.

[Anonymous]

The best thing to do.....Take Photo......Then get the HELL OUT FAST.
Have a nice day[:)].
Just like the other forum member says.........Leave foot prints and leave!..........FAST.

[RudyRockvilleMD]

This is to mostly reply to Mike Wikman.
My wife and I visited San Antonio in late September this year. She let me off the leash for a few hours, and I went down to the area near Tower 105, Brazos Street & Frio Road. I was on public property, and all I bagged was a Union Pacific hi-railer. A San Antonio police car passed me without stopping. Two days later I photographed an eastbound freight on the ex SP line through San Antonio north of the downtown area, and nobody bothered me.

A week later in Dallas my wife let me off the leash again. I rode an phtographed the McKinney Avenue trolley - no problems there, railfans are aways welcome. I photographed the DART Light Rail and the Trinity Rail Express trains fromUnion Station and the DART Light Rail and the Union Pacific from the Houston Street bridge south of Dallas Union Station. A few police cars passed me on the Houston Street Bridge they ignored me. I photographed a Union Pacific intermodal train crossing the Trinity River from the Trinity river Greenway; again no problems. I photogrphed the Trinity Rail Express and Amtrak in the Fort Worth intermodal Tranportation Center. A cop on K 9 patrol walked right past me he didn't say a word.

Now about my own area - Washington, DC, Maryland, and Virginia. No problems. In all cases I was on public property. I was on a sidewalk in Manassas, VA photographing Amtrak's Cardinal. A cop drove past, and he waved to me. A railfan friend and were at a grade crossing waiting for an NS freight when a deputy sheriff drove by, and asked us what we were doing. We told him we were photogrphing trains so he wished us luck.

My experience seems to track the expeiences of most of the others who have responded; they haven't had any problems watching or photographing trains. When you speak to your city council about railroad photography point out two things:
1. There are no laws against photogrphing anything (except Military facilities) from public
property. You might refer them to a web-site run by Bert Krages an attorney in
Portland, OR who has written a fact sheet about the rights of photographers.
2. In today's world with the advent of the internet photographs and other material is more
readily available to all so any ban on photography of railroads unless a military facility
is nearby is meaningless.

Another thought just occurred to me since San Antonio has many military facilities. Were you photographing trains with a military facility in the near background?

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by RudyRockvilleMD
Now about my own area - Washington, DC, Maryland, and Virginia. No problems. In all cases I was on public property.

I travel out that way every few months, and I was questioned once at Washington DC. It was the day of the big northeast blackout in August '03, and I had just arrived on a train from BWI. There were some interesting private cars on the tail end of one of the LD trains at the station, but I was challenged by an Amtrak employee before I get out to take a photo of them. [I did have a return Amtrak ticket to BWI, but that did not give me 'platform permission' and it was well over an hour before departure].

Another time, earlier this year, I was taking pictures of the abandoned bridges at the north end of what used to be Potomac Yard, along with the CSX mainline. Some guy on a bike kept circling around and called someone on his cell phone. The rest of the country was "code yellow" but the Washington DC area was "code orange" at the time. The bike guy never said anything to me directly.

As for my home area, as espeefoamer says there are a bunch of folks who hang out at Fullerton. It's a no hassle place to railfan (although you might stay out of the way of this one guy at the end of the platform...he's kinda territorial). I've never been hassled in all the different places I've gone in L.A. or Orange County.

In some places it's the danger of some of the neighborhood thugs, not the police or security, so you keep your eyes and ears wide open in some areas or skip them altogether.

[AntonioFP45]

Not a problem here in Tampa, Florida. CSX crews are usually friendly. The advice given above is a good one. Since Florida is the so-called "SUNSHINE STATE", you must also keep aware that our nice climate also attracts creeps and thugs.

When I railfanned from a public spot, I always stayed near my car. I've never been threatened by a thug when railfanning, but knowing they're out there is helpful.

I learned from my mother at a young age to take the time to "casually" look around your immediete area at least once a minute.

Know your surroundings so you aren't surprised!!

[FThunder11]

Here in Colorado Springs, I lterally stand on Union Pacific property, next to a small UP building, and if I'm there on a weekday, theres always a bunch of employees hanging out doing nothing (sounds like a job for me). The employees could obviously care less, I think they see my Amtrak hat and just a digital camera so they dont care.

[Anonymous]

I've railfanned Tehachapi Pass, Cajon Pass, Beaumont Hill, UP's Coast Line, BNSF north of Albuquerque and between Belen and Abo Canyon, not to mention more pictures of Surfliners at Santa Barbara than I know what to do with. The most I've ever been bothered was a BNSF Railway Policeman asked me to step a little farther away from the tracks. Most all crews are friendly. In other words, I haven't had problems. Of course, these places are no strangers to railfans.

The NYC subway is barking up the wrong tree.

Happy railfanning,
Daniel Parks

[Anonymous]

Hi All, We have been getting harrassed out here in Western Australia, for the past year or so, due to the introduction of some new passenger DMU's and suburban EMU's, the government and local RR company have been clamping down on taking photo's from railway land, with the introduction of suburban railway police and also
issuing the freight train drivers with digital camera's to photograph vandals and
also the number plates of railfans cars who are parked nearby while taking photos.

I have been harrassed twice and have had my photo taken 3 times. The offical excuse
for this treatment by the Railway and Government is that, this is due to the war on terrorism.

It seems that, this is not as bad in the other states of Australia.

ok see yas

Don

[rich747us]

Here in Batavia NY, the place to be is the Donahue Rd. crossing just west of the city. Very common to see a couple railfans there at any given time. Plus, it's one of the best shows in the northeast (in my opinion, anyway, lol)......the ex-CONRAIL Chicago main line. You have excellent views in both directions. You can see at least about 3 to 4 miles to the west, and a mile off to the east. Additionaly, you're about a mile east of the Batavia defect detector down near (just west of) CP 406 (and it stil has the original CONRAIL indentifier on it!). As far as trouble from the cops, they are well aware that Donahue Rd. is a favorite with railfans, and when sheriffs deputies drive past, they have NEVER given me any trouble. [:D]

[Anonymous]

Albany, NY: Legislation is under way to make trespassing on railroad property a "felony". The information was brief but was received here:

http://www.rochester-railfan.net/

under "Trainspotting Guide".

If this passes, I'm going to fly kites or glue together ships from now on.

[Anonymous]

Here in Idaho I have not been bothered by any police or security people but I always try to stay on public property (not saying you didn't) and as I understand, the RRs say something like 10' on either side of the right of way is RR property (am I right or wrong on that?) so I try to stay outside that if not more. I have seen police while watching or photographing trains but so far no contact with them. I have even parked in a parking lot at the U.P. crew change depot in Nampa, Id. and not been hasseled.The crews in the engines for the most part wave and occasionally blow the horn but I have only seen one crewman (fireman) who was bothered by my pointing a camera at them. He vacated his seat and I can only guess that he thought I was pointing a weapon at him. So you can see where the RRs might be bothered a little and may have stricter regs regarding this issue. I just wonder, while we're on this topic, if it might not be possible to organize some sort of register, nation wide, that the RRs would recognize and issue an approved i d card to members that police or security could scan in their computers to see that you are approved by the railroads to take pics and observe trains along the right of way as long as you don't violate their property? With a small fee for the card/membership, the money could go to a RRs special charity or some other benefit or even go to dedicating some platform along heavy use viewing areas ( such as the city of Rochelle did in ILL.) to concentrate railfans in photogenic areas instead of stringing out along the tracks wherever it might be convenient. Just a thought but hopefully a good one.

[Anonymous]

Dear Dale,
As others have already said on these forums, here in the United States (and I would hope in other countries represented on the forums here), we have among our rights the right to peaceably assemble. We should not have to carry identification to take part in a perfectly legal hobby, just like you would not carry identification to cook dinner or tie your shoelaces. It is our right to railfan, just as it is others' to play a musical instrument or collect stamps, and to require identification would be a detrimental precedent to liberty, not just to our harmless hobby.

Sinerely,
Daniel Parks

[RudyRockvilleMD]

This is for Dale Trongale and Daniel Parks (aka trainjunky29)
Daniel, I agree with you. Railfanning is a hobby so we shouldn't need an id card or a license to enjoy it.

Dale, back in the late 1940's the B&O issued id cards to railfans to allow them to come on their property, mostly engine terminals I believe, and take pictures; however, in order to get one of the B&O's "railfan id cards" railfans had to sign a release. Shortly after the Korean conflict started in June, 1950 the B&O recalled all railfan id cards never to reissue them.

The idea of having railfan areas in photogenic locations is good, and it is being done. However, short of a thorugh background check I am not sure how a railfan id card would deter terrorists bent on ing a railroad.

[Sterling1]

This is something you shouldn't do REALLY!!!
The only time I remember being chased off property was my father and I were getting photos of 2 CSX AC44CWs on power plant property (it was their access road) we got our pictures before the guard came over and told us to first follw them to the guard office and the other guy simply said "there's really nothing we can do about them". Other than that when I go up to upstate New York, the RR police, signal maintainers, and railroaders don't seem to bother the local railfans all that much. The engineers and the conductors are relatively friendly as are the local railfans to the odd guest like myself.

[Sterling1]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rich747us

Here in Batavia NY, the place to be is the Donahue Rd. crossing just west of the city. Very common to see a couple railfans there at any given time. Plus, it's one of the best shows in the northeast (in my opinion, anyway, lol)......the ex-CONRAIL Chicago main line. You have excellent views in both directions. You can see at least about 3 to 4 miles to the west, and a mile off to the east. Additionaly, you're about a mile east of the Batavia defect detector down near (just west of) CP 406 (and it stil has the original CONRAIL indentifier on it!). As far as trouble from the cops, they are well aware that Donahue Rd. is a favorite with railfans, and when sheriffs deputies drive past, they have NEVER given me any trouble. [:D]

The place that I normally visit often is Churchville/N.Chili area near Highway 31/33 I think.
The area in upstate NY that I often visit is Churville/N.Chili.