PRR has a big institutional ego problem for motive power "not invented here". Read Mike Bezilla's book on the history of PRR's electrification to see how bad it was. 50-some electrics rusting in the weeds out by Altoona, never even had the inside gear installed. Had to swallow their pride and borrow a New Haven articulated electric (EP-__) to get it right.
- Paul North.
BaltACDPersonal observation - today's T&E employees appear to be being hired from the pool of mechanically declined individuals. They may know the book discription of how something works but they can't apply to book to the steel of reality.
It's a generational thing. Most everything is electronic and non-user servicable now. There are barely any shop classes left in schools. Unless you grow up on a farm or with maechanical-able parents, how do you learn?
And even for those that have the mechanical skills (why they would hire into class 1 T&E is beyond me; Better career options exist elsewhere in the RR world), it's not like you can use them. There is barely anything you are allowed to do with engines anymore. They don't even want you adding water to an engine most places. Why not? Well, this one time someone got burned when it overflowed, lawsuits, lawyers, etc etc...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Paul_D_North_Jr Wizlish - the only other place this easterner has ever seen or heard the word "kludge" used was in Tom Clancy's mid-1980's novel The Hunt for Red October, when sonarman Ron Jones was taking apart a Soviet sub's sonar set and started using Valley-speak while muttering to himself: ". . . kludge, mega-kludge to the max". In that context, it was entirely derogatory, more like a synonym for "crap".
Wizlish - the only other place this easterner has ever seen or heard the word "kludge" used was in Tom Clancy's mid-1980's novel The Hunt for Red October, when sonarman Ron Jones was taking apart a Soviet sub's sonar set and started using Valley-speak while muttering to himself: ". . . kludge, mega-kludge to the max". In that context, it was entirely derogatory, more like a synonym for "crap".
Paul,
It may be a CE vs an EE thing - kludge has been a fairly common term used in the EE world for several decades, with indications that it dates back to WW2. Generally implies work done with limited available resources and time. Kludge jobs are not always crap as the time and resource limits can occasionally lead to inspired engineering.
Discussion reminds me of a Trains article written by an NYC mechanical guy. There was a problem with a diesel engine governor, he took off a part to see how many pennies were stack inside, seeing only two, he added another, commenting that any fool knows that three pennies were needed.
- Erik
erikemDiscussion reminds me of a Trains article written by an NYC mechanical guy. There was a problem with a diesel engine governor, he took off a part to see how many pennies were stack inside, seeing only two, he added another, commenting that any fool knows that three pennies were needed.
He borrow it from the independent handle?
Paul_D_North_JrWizlish - the only other place this easterner has ever seen or heard the word "kludge" used was in Tom Clancy's mid-1980's novel The Hunt for Red October, when sonarman Ron Jones was taking apart a Soviet sub's sonar set and started using Valley-speak while muttering to himself: ". . . kludge, mega-kludge to the max". In that context, it was entirely derogatory, more like a synonym for "crap".
My father was introduced to what he called the tradition of the 'kluge' (as he spells it) when he was at college. When properly applied, it has a technical meaning kind of like 'metanoia' in hermeneutics.
The idea is to fix something EFFECTIVELY via an ugly, even wince-worthy method. (If you fix something in a way that doesn't work, it's 'butchery', or an 'abortion', or a term that has become too racist to use any more even in its euphemistic form, etc.) One 'canonical example' (to use his expression) involved fixing the main filtered air supply on a Collins FM transmitter by hooking it up to a used oil burner someone had disposed of. Another was to fix an 'opto-isolator module' by soldering in a flashlight bulb. (The difference between his kluge and the sense of 'kludge' Californians might use, he thought, was that the people who made the $62 module had built it originally by soldering in a flashlight bulb -- with threads.)
The expression 'klugemeister' is a hard one to come by when you do it right; it very definitely has that MacGyver sense to it ... and no Heath Robinson at all (unless you don't have the right stuff for elegance and have to approximate with wire, string, gum, and gaffer's tape (waterproof version of duct tape)
I am not sure there is a Yankee-ingenuity term that matches git-r-dun but there is certainly a commonalty of "teleological result"
Zugmann's comment about a "generational" thing reminded me of a column I read several years ago where the columnist was pointing out the loss of various skills such as basic carpentry, electrical, and mechanical in the current generation saying "We're at least into two generations that never held a flashlight for their father."
Very profound, I thought. "Here son, hold the flashlight while I take care of this."
I realize the columnist was painting with a pretty broad brush but I knew exactly what he meant.
Then there's the time I was building some flower beds for Lady Firestorm. My next door neighbor who's a contractor was admiring my work and asked "Are you a carpenter?" "Well, no" I answered. "How'd you learn how do do that?" he asked. "Oh, easy" I said, "Watching my father do it!" "Was HE a carpenter?" "No, I guess he learned watching HIS father do it!"
I learned quite a few other things "holding the flashlight." Glad I watched, and watched hard!
zugmann erikem Discussion reminds me of a Trains article written by an NYC mechanical guy. There was a problem with a diesel engine governor, he took off a part to see how many pennies were stack inside, seeing only two, he added another, commenting that any fool knows that three pennies were needed. He borrow it from the independent handle?
erikem Discussion reminds me of a Trains article written by an NYC mechanical guy. There was a problem with a diesel engine governor, he took off a part to see how many pennies were stack inside, seeing only two, he added another, commenting that any fool knows that three pennies were needed.
Firelock76 Zugmann's comment about a "generational" thing reminded me of a column I read several years ago where the columnist was pointing out the loss of various skills such as basic carpentry, electrical, and mechanical in the current generation saying "We're at least into two generations that never held a flashlight for their father." Very profound, I thought. "Here son, hold the flashlight while I take care of this." I realize the columnist was painting with a pretty broad brush but I knew exactly what he meant. Then there's the time I was building some flower beds for Lady Firestorm. My next door neighbor who's a contractor was admiring my work and asked "Are you a carpenter?" "Well, no" I answered. "How'd you learn how do do that?" he asked. "Oh, easy" I said, "Watching my father do it!" "Was HE a carpenter?" "No, I guess he learned watching HIS father do it!" I learned quite a few other things "holding the flashlight." Glad I watched, and watched hard!
Johnny
Wizlish zugmann erikem Discussion reminds me of a Trains article written by an NYC mechanical guy. There was a problem with a diesel engine governor, he took off a part to see how many pennies were stack inside, seeing only two, he added another, commenting that any fool knows that three pennies were needed. He borrow it from the independent handle? No, it was the one from the ground relay. He could use the chewing gum and a piece of flag stick to keep the relay closed.
Wasn't it a Baldwin locomotive they were dealing with? IIRC, the same article said a Baldwin took about 4 times the maintenance of a GM.
WizlishI am not sure there is a Yankee-ingenuity term that matches git-r-dun but there is certainly a commonalty of "teleological result"
Yeah, but they carry with them some racial/ethnic adjectives that aren't appropriate to say here, or in a lot of places. (although 99.999% of the time when someone uses them - they are not using it as a derrogatory term in any means. Just old-time phrases that hung around...)
Firelock76I learned quite a few other things "holding the flashlight." Glad I watched, and watched hard!
A form of that still exists. Youtube, mostly.
In my days on the PRR, broom handle were occasionally used to override the ground fault relays to get the train over the road. Worked until a second ground occurred.
Where I grew up, the suburban electric trains had fuses to the control system clipped in place. These were about nine inches long and about an inch in diameter, with metal ends and a non conducting central section (containing the fuse itself).
These may have been standard in other industrial uses, but in railway use they sadly resembled in size and shape the cylindrical shaft of a rail spike, something that was relatively easy to pick up (quite literally).
A number of trains that had blown a fuse in the control system due to a momentary overload had the failed fuse substituted by a spike and this ran well until something before or after the fuse suffered from whatever the fuse was meant to protect from.....
M636C
And then the meltdown or fire.
Safety cars, one-man streetcars,including the foot-pedel Third Avenue and Omaha types, used circuit breaders where others used fuses. However, I khow of one property where normal equipment for operators was a supply of extra fuses,starting out with two or three of each type and hoping to have at least one when checking out. Separate fuses for the compressor, the control system, lighting, and heating.
In the navy in the 70s, that racist term was used quite often. The engine room's budget was pretty sparse and it was difficult to get anything new, so we had a do what is now called a kludge for almost anything. Nothing like letting 19-year-olds play with 650 psi superheated steam, but it was rare for anyone to get hurt, thankfully.
Wizlish, thanks for the mention of Heath Robinson, the British Rube Goldberg. Over in the U.K, his name comes up regularly. I've got several books of his drawings and they are fantastic. If anyone has ever seen those "Gentle art of making Guinness" ads, those were inspired by him.
At the Fox River Trolley Museum, we operate a 1902 C.A. & E. Railway interurban car which has the large cartridge fuses for the light, control, and heater circuits. Lights are five in series across 600 volts. Have to get them from England as they are built to be able to extinguish an arc when they fail and no linger made here. Fuses are about the diameter of a nickle and five inches long. The newer (50's) former CTA cars still have some fuses but most circuits have circuit breakers.
54light15 In the navy in the 70s, that racist term was used quite often. The engine room's budget was pretty sparse and it was difficult to get anything new, so we had a do what is now called a kludge for almost anything. Nothing like letting 19-year-olds play with 650 psi superheated steam, but it was rare for anyone to get hurt, thankfully. Wizlish, thanks for the mention of Heath Robinson, the British Rube Goldberg. Over in the U.K, his name comes up regularly. I've got several books of his drawings and they are fantastic. If anyone has ever seen those "Gentle art of making Guinness" ads, those were inspired by him.
erikem and WizLish - thanks for that enlightenment on the term kludge / kluge.
And Mike/ wanswheel - thanks for those cartoons. I was wondering when Rube Goldberg's creations would be mentioned . . .
zugmann BaltACD Personal observation - today's T&E employees appear to be being hired from the pool of mechanically declined individuals. They may know the book discription of how something works but they can't apply to book to the steel of reality.
BaltACD Personal observation - today's T&E employees appear to be being hired from the pool of mechanically declined individuals. They may know the book discription of how something works but they can't apply to book to the steel of reality.
M636C, thanks for that. We were told that in the event of a steam leak, we were to wave a broomstick around and the superheated steam would cut it like a knife. Then we were told that steam at that pressure would expand and fill the engine room instantly, killing everyone. Hard to wave a broomstick around, especially when you couldn't find one when you needed it.
M636CThey were the fastest ships the RAN ever owned and could make 35 knots with a clean hull. At 32 knots you needed to have sailors with squeegees cleaning the bridge windows outside because windscreen wipers couldn't cope with the spray in a choppy sea.
I spent time on a Navy research ship (YAG40). A Liberty ship...
The first time we arrived in Samoa, there were two frigates (I think) - Aussie and New Zealand. They left for Pearl about the same time we arrived from Pearl.
They expected to hit Hawaii in 2-3 days. We took something more than a week for the same trip (at 8 knots). No problem with spray on the windscreens on the bridge...
The "Granny" (Granville S. Hall) was, at the time, the only triple expansion steam reciprocating ship in active service with the Navy. I saw the engine room a couple of times, but had no reason to spend any time there. She's since been scrapped.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Paul_D_North_Jr wrote the following post 29 minutes ago: zugmann BaltACD Personal observation - today's T&E employees appear to be being hired from the pool of mechanically declined individuals. They may know the book discription of how something works but they can't apply to book to the steel of reality. "+1"
YouTube has it's purpose - to use what YouTube teaches one, you still have to possess some elementry mechanical skills and understandings - the controls may be computerized, what is being controlled is still mechanical - fix the mechanical ails and kludge the computer controls to achieve the desired result.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I find YouTube especially helpful with car repairs, nothing like watching something being done to learn all the tricks the manual doesn't show. But I agree all that is useless if you can't figure out which end of the screwdriver to use.
Back to the railroad subject, even if train crews know how to fix a problem on one of our modern computerized locomotives we are not allowed to, as the Company does not consider us qualified to perform repairs. Can't even reboot the computer screens without first calling the Diesel Doc. It's for the best I suppose, one would likely be suspended or fired if the repair wasn't done exactly right.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Locomotive left a shop yesterday after having 2 power units replaced - caught fire today inside a tunnel. Great shop work - have to check those fuel line connections.
tree68 I spent time on a Navy research ship (YAG40). A Liberty ship... The first time we arrived in Samoa, there were two frigates (I think) - Aussie and New Zealand. They left for Pearl about the same time we arrived from Pearl. They expected to hit Hawaii in 2-3 days. We took something more than a week for the same trip (at 8 knots). No problem with spray on the windscreens on the bridge... The "Granny" (Granville S. Hall) was, at the time, the only triple expansion steam reciprocating ship in active service with the Navy. I saw the engine room a couple of times, but had no reason to spend any time there. She's since been scrapped.
I spent a few hours in the machinery spaces of the Castlemaine, an Ocean Minesweeper but generally known as a Corvette, particularly after it was realised that magnetic mines made steel minesweepers a bit vulnerable. It had two three cylinder triple expansion engines and two Admiralty pattern three drum boilers working at about 200 PSI. If there was a minor steam leak, you tied a rag around it and it just dripped hot water into the bilges. It was a training ship and sat alonside the wharf at the training establishment Cerberus, running one engine slow ahead and the other slow astern... It is now preserved at Williamstown near Melbourne looking quite smart.
There was a bigger frigate the Diamantina which had two four cylinder triple expansion engines. She spent most of her life on surveying and oceanographic work and is preserved at Southbank in Brisbane, in a dry dock. A few years ago in a major flood, the dock flooded but Diamantina still floated, fortunately...
The DDGs had the most advanced conventional steam plant that could fit in a small ship but they were a long way from the simplicity of the old low pressure expansion engines. And each DDG burnt more oil in a year than all of our six diesel submarines put together and the submarines went a long way, if not particularly fast...
M636CThere was a bigger frigate the Diamantina which had two four cylinder triple expansion engines.
This line confused me. Which pressure had two cylinders? Were there one High, one medium, and two low presseue cylinders which is the way I envision this?
Electroliner 1935 This line confused me. Which pressure had two cylinders? Were there one High, one medium, and two low pressure cylinders which is the way I envision this?
Probably. Remember this is a condenser engine so the LP inlet and exhaust pressures can be very low and still produce useful power (cf. Titanic's engines and the Parsons exhaust-steam turbine). Probably the two LP cylinders are at the outer ends of the engine and function as one 'larger' cylinder to handle the large physical volume of steam involved.
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