I don't know how many people have read Malcolm Kenton's Feb 29 blog post, but if you haven't, you may have quite a treat in store. Especially if you are familiar with the general Red Green School of Engineering use of duct tape...
Perhaps the best part of the story is the sentence containing the highly-interesting-in-context words "at speed"...
We don't call it "sixty mile an hour tape" for nothin'...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
WizlishEspecially if you are familiar with the general Red Green School of Engineering use of duct tape...
chutton01Wouldn't referencing the Red Green Show make it the "Great White North" school of engineering?
I didn't want to bring up Bob and Doug with so many Canadians active in the forums right now. In any case... I was not aware of a Canadian analogue to the duct-tape theology represented by the Red Green franchise, nor did I think that the Canadian 'analogue' of 'git-r-dun' had the same unique combination of kludge-like expediency and unlikely found materials as that particular 'school' of emergineering and aleatory materials science.
I would be delighted to hear what the detailed Canadian versions of both the philosophy and the implementation are, for the various geographical regions (or regional stereotypes!) that might apply. Is it politically correct to use "Newfie" humor any more, even if one is Canadian and therefore poses no risk of PC nation-state disrespect?
EDIT: I am leaving this post intact as an example of the amazing pitfalls that happen when you ASSume. Aside from noting that yes, Red Green would be 'Great White Northern engineering'...
Would someone please give some indication of where this blog is located?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
tree68 We don't call it "sixty mile an hour tape" for nothin'...
Thats 200 MPH tape in my favorite sport!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
WizlishI was not aware of a Canadian analogue to the duct-tape theology represented by the Red Green franchise, nor did I think that the Canadian 'analogue' of 'git-r-dun' had the same unique combination of kludge-like expediency and unlikely found materials as that particular 'school' of emergineering and aleatory materials science.
Semper Vaporo Would someone please give some indication of where this blog is located?
Johnny
chutton01Wouldn't Red Green, set in northern Ontario, Canada IIRC, be the Canadian analogue to the duct tape theology?
Ye Gods, I had no idea! Didn't even bother to fact-check it. I was sure that was making gentle 'redneck' fun, targeted at the typical sort of redneck areas so popular on YouTube...
It sure is Canadian, isn't it ... perhaps even more so than Lake Wobegon is "Minnesot'n"
Deggesty Semper Vaporo Would someone please give some indication of where this blog is located? Look up at the top of the page, and click on "Blogs & Forums"
Look up at the top of the page, and click on "Blogs & Forums"
I did, which one has something to do with "Old-Time Southern Engineering"?
"Trump Hunter 'can't be so soft' [Satire]"
"60 minutes in the life of EHH"
"Rare endcab switchers are still among us"
"How inventive use of a stick saved the day aboard The Canadian"
"It's springtime for railfans ... in Wisconsin"
"Requiem for the Tidewater Turn"
"10 questions for the manager of this year's Norfolk & Western No. 611 trips"
Semper Vaporo which one has something to do with "Old-Time Southern Engineering"?
The one with the stick. The Norfolk Southern guy used good old-fashioned 'Southern' ingenuity to get the train rolling again. (And the kludge was good enough for 'safe' high-speed running...)
To quote another sort-of-Southern source, "It's a joke, son."
Falls about as flat, too, come to mention it...
"bout as sharp as a bowling ball!"
Laugh all you want to, but the 'quick and dirty' fix kept the train running and the railroad open.
IIRC, we used a lot of that green 'duct tape on steroids' to cover bullet holes in A-1 Super Spads during the late, great Southeast Asian war games. Helped the aerodynamics, and also covered up the bright aluminum disc where the impact knocked the paint off.
Chuck [MSgt, USAF(Ret)]
Speaking of "Great White North" I wish we'd get some Tim Horton's doughnut shops down here in the US. Ever have any? GOOD stuff!
Wizlish Semper Vaporo which one has something to do with "Old-Time Southern Engineering"? The one with the stick. The Norfolk Southern guy used good old-fashioned 'Southern' ingenuity to get the train rolling again. (And the kludge was good enough for 'safe' high-speed running...)
I had an experience a bit like the one described on "The Canadian".
In 1964 I went on my first railfan tour including overnight travel in a sleeping car. The sleeping car was a copy of Colonel Mann's Boudoir Car design dating to 1897, and quite comfortable.
We travelled all night, changing steam locomotives for progressively smaller locomotives as we proceeded West into the great plains. Finally we picked up two 4-4-0s and some lighter cars to head out on the branch to Cobar, one of the most remote locations in NSW.
As we approached Cobar, an anti vacuum valve mounted on the smokebox front of 1243, the leading 4-4-0 (built 1882, looking just like NSW loco 144 illustrated in a recent post by Wizlish) fractured its mounting flange and departed into the surrounding countryside in a cloud of steam. Amazingly it was found and relocated after a fashion, but the 1887 Vulcan Foundry loco 1709 trailing did most of the work to get us to Cobar station, where 100 years of rail service was duly celebrated.
After the celebrations, a trip to a nearby silver/lead/zinc mine was scheduled.
For some reason, we were allowed to sit in an 1890 Vice Regal saloon attached at the front of the train and I found myself sitting opposite the Assistant Chief Mechanical Engineer, Cornelius Cardew, one of the few really erudite engineers with a few patents and numerous technical papers to his credit.
There was a sharp grade leaving the station, and both 4-4-0s started out briskly.
I asked "Mr Cardew, do you think the damaged valve will hold?" to which the reply was "If it were to fail, I would have expected it to fail on starting".
Of course, at that moment there was a bang and a hiss of steam and we came to a halt. Again the valve (about 9 inches in diameter) was recovered but it was not thought that fitting it again was a good idea. The loco crew headed off into the surrounding scrub and cut down a tree of about ten inches across the trunk and cut off about a fifteen inch length. After tapering one end with an axe, this was driven in to the valve mounting seat, and we got under way.
Duct tape was not known in Australia at that time so the wood itself had to suffice. It got us back to the Junction at Nyngan where two 4-6-0s were waiting.
I should comment about the furnishings of the special saloon car. Everything was original 1890, so quite faded and strange. It looked reminiscent of the scene in Dickens' "Great Expectations" (if I have my stories right) where the bride continued to sit amongst the ruins of her Wedding feast.
But I'm sure this was done many times in many places.
M636C
Firelock76 Speaking of "Great White North" I wish we'd get some Tim Horton's doughnut shops down here in the US. Ever have any? GOOD stuff!
Yes I have and, and it's more the love of "Timmy" than has to do with any quality than can be had inside the store. (Eh?) ......You Betcha!
"The true sign of intelligence is not knowledge but imagination."-Albert Einstein
http://gearedsteam.blogspot.com/
Hey, don't underestimate Southern engineering. During the War Between the States, the South devised the world's first ironclad warship (CSS Virginia, formerly the sunken USS Merrimack which had been raised), then manufactured several more ironclads; designed and built the world's first successful submarine, the CSS Hunley; and stood up a functional gunpowder production complex, all with an industrial base and a cadre of trained engineers a fraction the size of those in the North.
We have one on every third street corner here in Columbus - ours, at least, are run of the mill at best. . Perhaps the ones north of the border are better?
chutton01 Wizlish I was not aware of a Canadian analogue to the duct-tape theology represented by the Red Green franchise, nor did I think that the Canadian 'analogue' of 'git-r-dun' had the same unique combination of kludge-like expediency and unlikely found materials as that particular 'school' of emergineering and aleatory materials science. Wouldn't Red Green, set in northern Ontario, Canada IIRC, be the Canadian analogue to the duct tape theology?Anyway, to keep it simple, the story involves fixing a broken (missing) air brake valve on a VIA "The Canadian" train trip by jamming a stick in the hole and duct taping it enough so the brake pressure doesn't blow the stick out the hole.And I think most Canadian people in the 1980s love SCTV... and still do today.
Wizlish I was not aware of a Canadian analogue to the duct-tape theology represented by the Red Green franchise, nor did I think that the Canadian 'analogue' of 'git-r-dun' had the same unique combination of kludge-like expediency and unlikely found materials as that particular 'school' of emergineering and aleatory materials science.
Wouldn't Red Green, set in northern Ontario, Canada IIRC, be the Canadian analogue to the duct tape theology?Anyway, to keep it simple, the story involves fixing a broken (missing) air brake valve on a VIA "The Canadian" train trip by jamming a stick in the hole and duct taping it enough so the brake pressure doesn't blow the stick out the hole.And I think most Canadian people in the 1980s love SCTV... and still do today.
Fixed it for you. Sorry.
But seriously I'm Canadian and everyone I've ever met loves Bob & Doug and Red Green. How else would we learn to bake bread in a washing machine, or get free beer using a dead mouse? They teach essential skills for survival up here in the Great White North.
We are obsessed with Tim Horton's too, but even more so down east. Cities in Ontario seem to have one on every city block.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
Before Tim's migrated south of the border, on our trips to Ontario, my wife would not let me back into the states without stopping for a dozen or so pecan butter tarts. They were great. Here in the states, they're just so-so. Local bakeries make better stuff.
Norm
Thread creep... (topic, not the person!)
SD70M-2DudeWe are obsessed with Tim Horton's too, but even more so down east. Cities in Ontario seem to have one on every city block.
What you can't get "here" always tastes better... I'm partial to Vernor's Ginger Ale, but it's hard to find here. I always stock up on my trips to Michigan...
Goiod Grief, Wayne..(Firelock76) I would have figured that you would have at least, mentioned that ole Sothern Fav...Krispy Kreme Donuts ! Born in the South.. New Orleans recipe, and bred[bread?] in Nortrh Carolina (1937- Winston-Salem)
While I knew of the "Red Green Show" from an aside in this Medium Large "Canada Day" cartoon from a few years back (title panel), I actually hadn't seen any episodes till last night after re-reading this thread, and checking on-line yielded among other things manyr various "Handyman Tips"/"Handyman Corner" clips. Before viewing those clips, I tended to confuse "Red Green" and "Corner Gas". For that, I apologize to all our friends in Canuckistan.I do realized the"Red Green" duct tape is probably just hiding the bolts and welds the show's prop team uses to keep his contraptions together and (in most cases) operational - I mean a wad of duct tape is not going to be enough for ski-ends to function as forklift tines, lifting a cast iron stove...BTW, Tim Horton opened a branch in Manhattan near Penn Station, about 7 years ago. I wasn't impressed, but so far, they haven't seemed to suffer the fate of Krispy Kreme in the NY area...IMO, on the whole the alumni of SCTV did better in their later careers than their contemporaries from SNL (well, at least the 1980s SNL cast)
That Medium Large cartoon is brilliant! I can't stand Tim's coffee. It's commercials put up a B.S. value system of rewarding conformity. "That new guy in the office likes Tims, he's one of us." is the basic theme of one TV commercial a while back. It's used by politicians to appeal to the "average Timmie's customer." Starbucks customers are objects of suspicion, not that I drink that swill either. Starbucks customers are portrayed by politicians and right-wing newspapers (Toronto Sun) as bike riding environmental vegans and not "our crowd." Not the real Canadians with thier hockey sticks, lumber jackets, canoes, snow shoes, Molsons and Labatts and moose antlers hanging on the wall which all adds up to a bunch of malarkey.
So so everyone knows, the one and only time I was in a Tim Horton's was when Lady Firestorm and I were in Saint John's Newfoundland in 1992. Lady F didn't care for the doughnuts but LOVED the teabiscuits! Can't get enough of them! Personally I liked the doughnuts and the coffee too. Must be something in the water on "The Rock", or the Avalon Pennisula at any rate.
Using the local vernacular Lady F says, "I loves me some teabiscuits!"
Krispy Kreme? Nah, tried them, don't care for them. A little too greasy and I don't care for the glaze they use, I like good-old fashioned SINKERS! Want to impress me, make a good plain doughnut that can stand on it's own without frills.
Firelock76Krispy Kreme? Nah, tried them, don't care for them. A little too greasy and I don't care for the glaze they use, I like good-old fashioned SINKERS! Want to impress me, make a good plain doughnut that can stand on it's own without frills.
Never been really impressed by the standard Krispy Kreme, but I'll eat 'em. Daughter used to go to the local establishment in Lynchburg, VA and watch 'em make the donuts - apparently they're quite the delicacy fresh...
Used to see a lot of them for fundraising.
Krispy Kreme apparently does make "regular donuts," but that's not what they're famous for.
We have a local cider mill that makes donuts, too. I was there one morning first thing (buying a treat for my railroad crew that day) and watched them make my order. Sinkers is a good description, too...
How did we get from "old-time Southern engineering" to modern Northern doughnuts ? Oh, OK - the Southern engineering was applied to a northern train, I get it now.
Quite a few years back, one of the magazines I picked-up from time to time had several columns about how steam locomotive engineers would improvise to field-repair all kinds of broken pipes, valves, appliances, etc. to get moving and over the road to a shop where proper repairs could be made. Not backwoods logging roads, either - most were mainline operations. It might have been in Live Steam (mostly for the 1" scale ride-on types), the NMRA Bulletin, or Freeman Hubbard's Railroad magazine. Most of them seemed to be 'one-of' fixes - and I understood only maybe 20% of the descriptions - but they were ingenious, almost McGiver- (or "The Martian") -like.
Wizlish - the only other place this easterner has ever seen or heard the word "kludge" used was in Tom Clancy's mid-1980's novel The Hunt for Red October, when sonarman Ron Jones was taking apart a Soviet sub's sonar set and started using Valley-speak while muttering to himself: ". . . kludge, mega-kludge to the max". In that context, it was entirely derogatory, more like a synonym for "crap".
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr How did we get from "old-time Southern engineering" to modern Northern doughnuts ? Oh, OK - the Southern engineering was applied to a northern train, I get it now. Quite a few years back, one of the magazines I picked-up from time to time had several columns about how steam locomotive engineers would improvise to field-repair all kinds of broken pipes, valves, appliances, etc. to get moving and over the road to a shop where proper repairs could be made. Not backwoods logging roads, either - most were mainline operations. It might have been in Live Steam (mostly for the 1" scale ride-on types), the NMRA Bulletin, or Freeman Hubbard's Railroad magazine. Most of them seemed to be 'one-of' fixes - and I understood only maybe 20% of the descriptions - but they were ingenious, almost McGiver- (or "The Martian")-like. - Paul North.
Quite a few years back, one of the magazines I picked-up from time to time had several columns about how steam locomotive engineers would improvise to field-repair all kinds of broken pipes, valves, appliances, etc. to get moving and over the road to a shop where proper repairs could be made. Not backwoods logging roads, either - most were mainline operations. It might have been in Live Steam (mostly for the 1" scale ride-on types), the NMRA Bulletin, or Freeman Hubbard's Railroad magazine. Most of them seemed to be 'one-of' fixes - and I understood only maybe 20% of the descriptions - but they were ingenious, almost McGiver- (or "The Martian")-like.
In years gone by, many T&E employees were farm boys looking for something other than farming for their livelyhood; but having grown up on the farm and watching their forebarers work with and 'fix' mechanical equipment they developed a real good handle on what makes things work and work around for when they don't. Applying their farm learned mechanics to railroading was no big deal.
Personal observation - today's T&E employees appear to be being hired from the pool of mechanically declined individuals. They may know the book discription of how something works but they can't apply to book to the steel of reality.
SALfan Hey, don't underestimate Southern engineering. During the War Between the States, the South devised the world's first ironclad warship (CSS Virginia, formerly the sunken USS Merrimack which had been raised), then manufactured several more ironclads; designed and built the world's first successful submarine, the CSS Hunley; and stood up a functional gunpowder production complex, all with an industrial base and a cadre of trained engineers a fraction the size of those in the North.
Swingin' it back to railroadin', after that unschedualed stop for coffee and sinkers, let's not forget those masterpieces of Southern engineering, the Norfolk and Western Classes A, Y, and J!
I still maintain the ONLY reason the Pennsylvania Railroad didn't adopt a Class J as a replacement for the K4 was because they couldn't, wouldn't admit those "hillbillies" down in Roanoke were better at steam locomotive design than they were.
Hey, they borrowed one, it worked fine, they didn't go with it, what other conclusion can I draw?
Firelock76I still maintain the ONLY reason the Pennsylvania Railroad didn't adopt a Class J as a replacement for the K4 was because they couldn't, wouldn't admit those "hillbillies" down in Roanoke were better at steam locomotive design than they were.
Now, now ... they DID mention specifically why they weren't adopting the design, in some detail (their report is in the Hagley collection and also iirc in the T1 Trust material). Note that the PRR 'answer' to PASSENGER locomotive design was finalized long before the testing, and in fact the early and unsuccessful Baldwin design is contemporaneous with the J, long before it was clear that Glaze's balancing philosophy had produced something special. And the likely 'follow-ons' to any steam locomotive of that size were going to be either the general V1 mechanical turbine or the Westinghouse 4-8-4 version of the rodded turbine, not something with inherent compromise in rotating balance (however slight) and Too Low A FA For Demonstrably Ham-Handed Hoggers.
Not to say that an appropriately-scaled 4-8-4 with 80" drivers and Glaze's balance refinements wasn't a splendid alternative -- in fact, an appropriately-scaled 4-8-4 with 76" (to fit the appropriate double Belpaire within clearances) or even 72" (as proven to work for 'necessary' speed on NYC, and on PRR's own 4-8-2s, with much more primitive balancing, no lightweight refinements, and relatively low boiler pressure) might have been interesting. The early history of the Niagara would indicate, though, that an increase from 'smaller' driver size might be warranted -- there are test arguments going either way about why the switch from 75" to the maximum allowed size was made, and PRR certainly had heavier grades in the East to accommodate until electrification could reach Pittsburgh...
Might have been an interesting world if the NYC embraced the C1a and PRR built the best high-speed 4-8-4 in the world, might it not?
Of course, there is a reason all these alternatives were not considered, and a greater 'point' we might raise is what kind of 'engineering' the evolving EMD demonstrated... Dilworth in particular.
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