zugmannBut what would make a customer want triple crown (or any roadrailer) over conventional intermodal? Is there any reason? Is there a need that roadrailers can uniquely fill?
(sigh) Murphy was asking for a scenario of how I might try to "sell" the service, so i provided one. If you read back, you'll see that i prequalified it as an exercise in futility since NS doesn't seem to want to "grow" that segment.
It would be the roadrailer service operator having the preference to promote their service to the customer, not the customer's preference for Roadrailer over "can on a chassis".
There must have been such a preference at one time, or roadrailer wouldn't have existed in the first place. The tare for the rail segment of travel would have to be less for roadrailer, so possible fuel savings comes to mind as a possible reason.
Murphy Siding If I had called you a nut, that would have been a personal attack of sorts.
The way you tend to use the word 'conspiracy' usually comes across as though you mean it that way. Not worth further discussion, So I'll let it rest there.
Convicted OneEntrepreneurs of small to mid sized businesses 1) watch tv, and 2) are decision makers. I've got this idea where you take an industrial building that currently has a rail line entering the building through a roll up door (rails embedded in pavement) you set up some falsework making that entry look like a standard dock high truck door, and position a triple crown trailer (on a bogey) backed up to the dock. The announcer says -"Whether your needs are one trailer"- (A sinister black Dash 9 comes creeping across the pavement on the embedded rails, hooks up to the lone TC trailer) The announcer continues -"or one hundred"- ( with the falsework removed, the loco pulls away the lone exposed TC trailer, which is now connected to a long string of TC trailers coming out of the building) Announcer continues - "We at Triple Crown are the specialists best suited to meet your specific transportation needs"- (Video image cross-fades into another video image of a Triple Crown train going down a mainline at speed.) Thus projecting the image that the train comes to serve the customer regardless of his location. This concept lends itself to a video presentation, and enough small to mid sized operators watch TV to make this worthwhile. Perhaps not during the superbowl, but maybe somewhere on either side of the 11 o'clock news
I've had significant experience with RoadRailers. I was with ICG intermodal marketing when (over strenuous objections by myself and others) the railroad established the very first modern era commercial RoadRailer service in 1980. It lasted one year. I later went to work for RoadRailer itself in a marketing position.
The incompatibility issue was never solved. That issue destroyed any advantage that the use of RoadRailers may have had. There is no, none, zero, nada service that RoadRailer can provide to a customer, of any size, that cannot be more efficiently provided by a container.
This proposed TV ad is quite silly. It demonstrates that the proposer is basically clueless with regards to transportation economics (and advertising). You pick up/deliver the trailer at the customer's facility with a truck. The truck is the "final miles" link between a rail terminal and the customer. You do not go with "the train comes to serve the customer regardless of his location." That's inefficient and will destroy any ability to be service competitive with over the road trucking.
RoadRailers have been tried and found wanting on the NS, BNSF, UP, CSX, my ICG and the CN. We all need to accept reality. Container movement, for any size customer, is simply a superior system.
CMStPnP schlimm It seems to me there are two issues here that have been confounded. One, is the advantages and disadvantages of Triple Crown service and Roadrailers compared to COFC and TOFC services. Two, is the elimination of most services by the rails except to very large customers. The rather snarky bickering back and forth between CO and Murphy is merely an amusing (to some) distraction. One of my elder Brothers used to be a Truck Driver. FWIW, he told me the Road Railer trailers were not very popular with Truck Drivers because of the Rail Wheels on the back made them more prone to fish tail in bad weather also more difficult when the trailer was empty. He said they were considered a royal PITA in other respects as well and a good portion of truckers just did not like them. I can imagine the Railroads do not like them because of the labor it takes to assemble a train vs a containerized load.
schlimm It seems to me there are two issues here that have been confounded. One, is the advantages and disadvantages of Triple Crown service and Roadrailers compared to COFC and TOFC services. Two, is the elimination of most services by the rails except to very large customers. The rather snarky bickering back and forth between CO and Murphy is merely an amusing (to some) distraction.
It seems to me there are two issues here that have been confounded. One, is the advantages and disadvantages of Triple Crown service and Roadrailers compared to COFC and TOFC services. Two, is the elimination of most services by the rails except to very large customers. The rather snarky bickering back and forth between CO and Murphy is merely an amusing (to some) distraction.
One of my elder Brothers used to be a Truck Driver. FWIW, he told me the Road Railer trailers were not very popular with Truck Drivers because of the Rail Wheels on the back made them more prone to fish tail in bad weather also more difficult when the trailer was empty. He said they were considered a royal PITA in other respects as well and a good portion of truckers just did not like them. I can imagine the Railroads do not like them because of the labor it takes to assemble a train vs a containerized load.
There's an insight. The RoadRailers have had 50+ years to overwhelm the industry with their logic, but never done it. By contrast, with all the stars lining up, containers swept the field in a handful of years. It's hard to argue with the results.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Convicted OneHow about acts of Congress? Conspiracy?
Not to get involved here, but some of those certainly seem to qualify.
Norm
Convicted OneThus projecting the image that the train comes to serve the customer regardless of his location. This concept lends itself to a video presentation, and enough small to mid sized operators watch TV to make this worthwhile. Perhaps not during the superbowl, but maybe somewhere on either side of the 11 o'clock news
But what would make a customer want triple crown (or any roadrailer) over conventional intermodal? Is there any reason? Is there a need that roadrailers can uniquely fill? If there isn't, and the roadrailers were simply a better way to run freight (questionable, since all but one service lane on one railroad has trashed the concept), why have a separate company set up? Why not just combine it with the rest of RR intermodal department?
I see you are trying to justify its existence, but is there an advantage to anyone in keeping the service alive?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Convicted One Murphy Siding I'm not sure where you are seeing personal attacks in my posts I guess it's just as well you don't have a plan, as few people would put much faith in it. It's always hard to hit a moving target. It's much harder if you're shooting from a moving target as well. Did your career flourish after you realized sales wasn't for you? When you couple belittling, smarmy, or dimmunitive comments coupled with pronouns such as "you" and "your", become a personal attack. For example, if I say 'one would have to be an idiot to jump out of an airplane' that is not a personal attack, even if you happen to be a skydiver. However if I say to you "Only an idiot like you would even think about jumping out of an airplane" it becomes a personal attack.
Murphy Siding I'm not sure where you are seeing personal attacks in my posts
I guess it's just as well you don't have a plan, as few people would put much faith in it. It's always hard to hit a moving target. It's much harder if you're shooting from a moving target as well. Did your career flourish after you realized sales wasn't for you?
When you couple belittling, smarmy, or dimmunitive comments coupled with pronouns such as "you" and "your", become a personal attack.
For example, if I say 'one would have to be an idiot to jump out of an airplane' that is not a personal attack, even if you happen to be a skydiver.
However if I say to you "Only an idiot like you would even think about jumping out of an airplane" it becomes a personal attack.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Convicted One Murphy Siding You mentioned "conspiracy allegation". I figured I'd just quote the source. So then, in your way of thinking if the Trains magazine staff decides to go to a bi-monthly publication schedule, would you consider that a "conspiracy"? How about acts of Congress? Conspiracy? Typically when someone at an individual level accredits another individual of "conspiracy allegation", it's pretty much in the same spirit as calling them a "nut", which of course IS a personal attack.
Murphy Siding You mentioned "conspiracy allegation". I figured I'd just quote the source.
So then, in your way of thinking if the Trains magazine staff decides to go to a bi-monthly publication schedule, would you consider that a "conspiracy"?
How about acts of Congress? Conspiracy?
Typically when someone at an individual level accredits another individual of "conspiracy allegation", it's pretty much in the same spirit as calling them a "nut", which of course IS a personal attack.
Convicted One Murphy Siding Convicted One Or perhaps I'm looking a little too deep for meaning? Could the driving force be more of a nature related to the changing of the guard at NS? Perhaps TC was a Wick Moorman pet that has now been cast to the wayside? What are you trying to say? That the above post somehow provoked you into making your personal attacks as some form of retribution?
Murphy Siding Convicted One Or perhaps I'm looking a little too deep for meaning? Could the driving force be more of a nature related to the changing of the guard at NS? Perhaps TC was a Wick Moorman pet that has now been cast to the wayside?
Convicted One Or perhaps I'm looking a little too deep for meaning? Could the driving force be more of a nature related to the changing of the guard at NS? Perhaps TC was a Wick Moorman pet that has now been cast to the wayside?
Or perhaps I'm looking a little too deep for meaning? Could the driving force be more of a nature related to the changing of the guard at NS? Perhaps TC was a Wick Moorman pet that has now been cast to the wayside?
What are you trying to say? That the above post somehow provoked you into making your personal attacks as some form of retribution?
Murphy SidingWouldn't you get more results with feet on the street?
Did you even bother to read my entire post? TV is just one aspect of my multi-pronged program.
The TV ad gives the prospective customer a preview of brand recognition so that when the salesman comes knocking on the door, his target might have a shred of curiousity sufficient to get the salesman inside the door.
Murphy SidingWhy Television ads?
Entrepreneurs of small to mid sized businesses 1) watch tv, and 2) are decision makers.
I've got this idea where you take an industrial building that currently has a rail line entering the building through a roll up door (rails embedded in pavement) you set up some falsework making that entry look like a standard dock high truck door, and position a triple crown trailer (on a bogey) backed up to the dock.
The announcer says -"Whether your needs are one trailer"- (A sinister black Dash 9 comes creeping across the pavement on the embedded rails, hooks up to the lone TC trailer) The announcer continues -"or one hundred"- ( with the falsework removed, the loco pulls away the lone exposed TC trailer, which is now connected to a long string of TC trailers coming out of the building) Announcer continues - "We at Triple Crown are the specialists best suited to meet your specific transportation needs"- (Video image cross-fades into another video image of a Triple Crown train going down a mainline at speed.)
Thus projecting the image that the train comes to serve the customer regardless of his location. This concept lends itself to a video presentation, and enough small to mid sized operators watch TV to make this worthwhile. Perhaps not during the superbowl, but maybe somewhere on either side of the 11 o'clock news
Convicted One ............ I'd put together some television advertisments targeting entrepreneurs of small to mid size manufacturing operations emphasizing flexibility and services tailored to the customer's needs, print up some nice glossy brochures, and get a sales force out pounding the bricks in markets where i could best serve (close to a road to rail transfer point). Perhaps even emphasize that we could expand the customer's business model by taking them cost effectively to distant markets that it doesn't currently serve. Stuff like that.
............ I'd put together some television advertisments targeting entrepreneurs of small to mid size manufacturing operations emphasizing flexibility and services tailored to the customer's needs, print up some nice glossy brochures, and get a sales force out pounding the bricks in markets where i could best serve (close to a road to rail transfer point). Perhaps even emphasize that we could expand the customer's business model by taking them cost effectively to distant markets that it doesn't currently serve. Stuff like that.
Heck, I could even approach those entrepreneurs and tell them they can lay-off all their overpriced American workers, move their operations to Mexico, build new factories on land that I would sell them, using money my capital division would loan them, AND I'D STILL BE ABLE TO DELIVER THEIR PRODUCT to it's current destination on time and at an agreed upon price. WHAT MORE COULD THEY WANT?
Murphy Sidingmade it sound you had the answers
#1 Which problem do you think I should have the solution for? Persuading NS to once again go after smaller customers (rots of ruck, bring the mountain to mohammad), or persuade smaller customers to utilize NS for business which it no longer wants?
Kinda hard to solve that problem when the war is effectively already over, don't you think? Proposing that I solve a problem that desires no solution was an exercise in absurdity. That is why you got no answer. Yet you still found priority in rewarding me with your "guess you got no plan and it's probably a good thing cause no one would take you seriously anyway" and your old stand-by "conspiracy allegation" observations. Why the need to bundle personal attacks along with your commentary? Is that the way you normally think and just don't know any better, or were you trying to provoke something uglier?
I think if the war was still there to be fought, I'd put together some television advertisments targeting entrepreneurs of small to mid size manufacturing operations emphasizing flexibility and services tailored to the customer's needs, print up some nice glossy brochures, and get a sales force out pounding the bricks in markets where i could best serve (close to a road to rail transfer point). Perhaps even emphasize that we could expand the customer's business model by taking them cost effectively to distant markets that it doesn't currently serve. Stuff like that.
But it's too late for that now, all that's left is to speculate why none of that was good enough for NS. Towards that end and caring enough to propose several possibilities that might have been in play, you then accuse me of being a "moving target". Seems more like you are more interested in trying to curtail open discussion by admonishing those who dare to think outside your determined boundries, than to promote it. JMHO
a copy
The railroads dont want short haul buisness, They wont take a load from Baltimore to Philly because that is too short. They wont take a load from Harrisburg to Port of NYNJ even though there is intermodal ramps there.(But they will take a load from Front Royal to Hampton Roads). If you see on the timetable there is no train service from Pittsburgh to Port of NYNJ even though there are 30 intermodal train a day that pass through there-
http://www.nscorp.com/content/nscorp/en/shipping-options/intermodal/terminals-and-schedules/pittsburgh-pa-.html
Well... The way you talked about how the railroads are just giving away all the small customers to the truckers because they won't work for the business made it sound you had the answers. I guess not.
https://people.hofstra.edu/geotrans/eng/ch3en/conc3en/img/na_rail_intermodal_system.png
Intermodal service by railroads seems to me to be a cherry picking operation. The railroads only will ship on certain corridors and only if you have a min amount of freight going over 450 miles. Case in point here in Virgina at the Virgina Inland Port the trains only go between the Front Royal VA Inland port and the Port Of VA for import/export only. This is despite the fact that there are 2 other NS intermodal trains that pass through here.
Murphy Siding I guess it's just as well you don't have a plan, as few people would put much faith in it. It's always hard to hit a moving target. It's much harder if you're shooting from a moving target as well. Did your career flourish after you realized sales wasn't for you?
I guess that's why I never took your "what would you like to discuss about railroading?" invitations seriously. Your bedside manner with people you disagree with. You were no different even back when this site once used you as a moderator.
Convicted One Murphy Siding All I've ever read about Roadrailers made it sound like they almost exclusively hauled auto parts. (?) Did they do muc business with ConvictedOne's Widget factory At one point there was a good number of TC trailers with refrigeration units on them. Doubtful those were autoparts. Over the years I've seen a number of standard TC trailers free-standing at dock doors of pretty small operations. I don't know the exact nature of the business involved (in those instances) because at the time(s) i had no reason to suspect that it might one day become relevant. Thing of it all is, as far as I know NS has always kept the economic cards of TC pretty close to it's chest, making me suspect none of it was all that profitable for them or they woulda been bragging about what pioneers they were, etc.
Murphy Siding All I've ever read about Roadrailers made it sound like they almost exclusively hauled auto parts. (?) Did they do muc business with ConvictedOne's Widget factory
At one point there was a good number of TC trailers with refrigeration units on them. Doubtful those were autoparts. Over the years I've seen a number of standard TC trailers free-standing at dock doors of pretty small operations. I don't know the exact nature of the business involved (in those instances) because at the time(s) i had no reason to suspect that it might one day become relevant.
Thing of it all is, as far as I know NS has always kept the economic cards of TC pretty close to it's chest, making me suspect none of it was all that profitable for them or they woulda been bragging about what pioneers they were, etc.
zugmannMany issues with them in addition to the whole 'business factors' debated here.
I would love to learn what those issues are. Handling? Timing? Managment? Other?
Thanks.
Convicted OneWhen RRnut posted that earlier, it made sense. But let's keep in mind that Triple crown service to the auto industry is still operating. they are not retiring the whole fleet.
Triple crown did get some trailers from Swift, Amtrak, etc over the years. I don't know how the ages all came into play, but I'm sure they consolidated anything of time left to that one service lane. When those trailers/bogies hit the end of life, it'll be interesting to see if they buy more.
The local triple crown yard was downsized years ago so the neighboring intermodal yard could take some of the space. Now it's closed up for good, and I'm sure will be taken over by TOFC/COFC operations soon enough.
I've worked a regular roadrailer job for a spell years ago. I won't miss them. Many issues with them in addition to the whole 'business factors' debated here. Again, nice idea, but I don't think it was the best idea.
I guess that it wouldn't surprise me if NS never really wanted the rubber tire end of the business, they perhaps hoped that other independant operators would eventually take that part "on" once the concept caught on (which it never did?)
Sort of how IBM never really wanted to be in the operating system business for personal computers. they just wanted to sell personal computers, and started an operating system sideline just to make the machines they were selling operational, until other software developers became established.
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