tree68 Mookie I am reasonably certain that they "spray" the coal before it leaves for delivery? What do they spray it with and does that keep it from leaving a dust trail? "Blue Coal" was so called because it was sprayed with a blue dye, albeit to set it aside from other vendors. I don't know if it had any sealing effect.
Mookie I am reasonably certain that they "spray" the coal before it leaves for delivery? What do they spray it with and does that keep it from leaving a dust trail?
I am reasonably certain that they "spray" the coal before it leaves for delivery? What do they spray it with and does that keep it from leaving a dust trail?
"Blue Coal" was so called because it was sprayed with a blue dye, albeit to set it aside from other vendors. I don't know if it had any sealing effect.
If I recall correctly, the BNSF & UP wanted the Powder River shippers to spray the coal loaded with something to bind in the 'fines' that were fouling the ballast on the Powder River joint trackage. I don't know what the final outcome was.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Some was sprayed on the top of loaded cars with a binder similar to concrete moisture barrier film used at placement to keep moisture from leaving the concrete until the chemical reaction has played-out and the concrete sets. (The "white stuff" you see sprayed in highway construction projects.) ....created it's own issues and has been largely replaced by just water again.
The coal dust has caused track surfacing issues tn the PRB area for years as it fouls the ballast. Lotsa work for Mr. Undercutter.
BaltACDIf I recall correctly, the BNSF & UP wanted the Powder River shippers to spray the coal loaded with something to bind in the 'fines' that were fouling the ballast on the Powder River joint trackage. I don't know what the final outcome was.
BNSF RailwayThe current Coal Loading Rule has been in effect since October 1, 2011. The Coal Loading Rule specifically requires all shippers loading coal at any Montana or Wyoming mine to take measures to load cars in such a way that ensures coal dust losses in transit are reduced by at least 85% compared to cars where no remedial measures have been taken. The Coal Loading Rule also has a "safe harbor" provision stating that a shipper will be deemed to be in compliance with BNSF's Coal Loading Rule if it loads cars in compliance with BNSF's published Load Profile Template, and either (i) applies an approved topper agent to the loaded cars in the specified manner, or (ii) uses another method of coal dust suppression that, together with profiling, reduces coal dust losses in transit by the required 85%.
To my uneducated eye - it looks like hairspray in the sunlight.
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
MC, you may have touched on something I've been wondering about. when I was young many many years ago, I remember seeing concrete being wet down or covered with wet canvas as it cured, but it's been a long time since I've seen that. I had been wondering if there was something different in the formulation of the mix, but if they spray it with a "sealer", (which I've never observed), that would explain it.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
[quote user="Paul of Covington"]...when I was young many many years ago, I remember seeing concrete being wet down or covered with wet canvas as it cured, .../quote]
I've seen that in the not-to-distant past - usually on highway overpasses where there was also a ready source of water. Sprinklers are used to distribute the water...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Coal Sprayer
The blue dye, or more properly wash, on "Blue Coal" was strictly there for looks, it had no sealing effect nor was it meant to.
Seems a bit of a waste of effort to me, but obviously the "Blue Coal" company didn't think so.
rdamon Coal Sprayer
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy - if it was just water, why do I see some of the engines with some kind of discoloration that looks like it was sprayed on the car and then blew onto the engine? (think DPU) Or do my lyin' eyes deceive me?
Murph - I think you answered your own question. There is no means of containing the water at the spray site. The water being sprayed onto the cars will take miles to work through the coal and drizzle onto the roadbed.
The water that would fall between the cars is no small amount, and it doesn't look like the natural drainage is all that great there. So all that water would likely cause problems with the roadbed.
A Youtube video mentions that this is a polymer spray, which would also explain both why they don't spray it on the ground and they don't hit the locos with it either.
It looks to be located here: N 50.83125 W 119.32954
Mookie Murphy - if it was just water, why do I see some of the engines with some kind of discoloration that looks like it was sprayed on the car and then blew onto the engine? (think DPU) Or do my lyin' eyes deceive me?
tree68 Murph - I think you answered your own question. There is no means of containing the water at the spray site. The water being sprayed onto the cars will take miles to work through the coal and drizzle onto the roadbed. The water that would fall between the cars is no small amount, and it doesn't look like the natural drainage is all that great there. So all that water would likely cause problems with the roadbed. A Youtube video mentions that this is a polymer spray, which would also explain both why they don't spray it on the ground and they don't hit the locos with it either. It looks to be located here: N 50.83125 W 119.32954
Murphy SidingWell, isn't polymer another way to say plastic? It seems like something with plasics in it would be sprayed over some type of trough or drainage system that recaptures the solution and keeps it from soaking into the ground and the groundwater. Would polymer make it easier for any neer-do-wells along the tracks somewhere in like, Lincoln, Nebraska to get the fire lit?
As I noted before, anything that manages to run all the way through the coal in the car will dribble along the roadbed for miles. Given that the polymer (I saw another term used, but don't remember what it was) probably sets (hardens/dries), it's very likely that none reaches the ground at all, save a little overspray on a windy day.
Murphy Siding Suppose a malicious trainwatcher was to get up in a carload of coal in some out of the way place, like say Lincoln, Nebraska. How hard would it be for her to get a small fire lit in a big ol' pile of coal, and how would she get in and out of the car?
Suppose a malicious trainwatcher was to get up in a carload of coal in some out of the way place, like say Lincoln, Nebraska. How hard would it be for her to get a small fire lit in a big ol' pile of coal, and how would she get in and out of the car?
There wouldn't be any need for her to get into (or out of again) the car, I would have to imagine that tossing a lit highway flare(or Fusee) into the car would likely get something in there burning.
Doug
May your flanges always stay BETWEEN the rails
Surfactant
challenger3980 Murphy Siding Suppose a malicious trainwatcher was to get up in a carload of coal in some out of the way place, like say Lincoln, Nebraska. How hard would it be for her to get a small fire lit in a big ol' pile of coal, and how would she get in and out of the car? There wouldn't be any need for her to get into (or out of again) the car, I would have to imagine that tossing a lit highway flare(or Fusee) into the car would likely get something in there burning. Doug
Johnny
mudchickenSurfactant
Probably more than that. Surfactants reduce surface tension; I'd also expect a different form of wetting agent (perhaps glycol ether?) -- these things just ensure that the solution runs down quickly over and between the coal pieces, and coats them evenly. The actual 'polymer' would be something that forms a very thin but continuous skin over the coal particles, either with strength enough or self-healing properties enough to withstand trituration, etc. as the coal shakes during transport (and perhaps binding some of the coal dust either in the as-loaded condition -- a substantial problem for the first few miles out of the PRB -- or as developed). This will doubtless be some proprietary thing protected by trade secret practices, but I would start with something like parylene and go from there. (Note that this should also help fairly dramatically in keeping the coal from a number of aging problems, but have very little effect on gas release after the coal has been pulverized...)
Maybe, the malicious trainwatcher was simply shopping for some lumps of coal for gifting to other forum members? In that case, the fire could only be accounted for by the fact that she was accompanied by a snowman wth a tophat and a corncob pipe! What's the world coming to?
My two cents, from a Powder River Basin (PRB) coal mining engineer:
Spontaneous Combustion (spon-com) in Powder River Basin coal is fairly common, the mines I have worked at all have issues with it. The rank of the coal is what drives it; anthracite and upper rank bituminous coals don't have the issue nearly as much, the sub-bituminous of the PRB and the brown lignite coals of Texas and North Dakota seem to have a harder time with it. The lower ranks of coal have a higher moisture content, which could be what drives it.
Open air stockpiles need compaction to drive the air out, and open mining faces need to have the fines cleaned to minimize the "smokers". Even with proper housekeeping, the stuff self heats and catches fire easily. I remember it was especially bad after a rainstorm and some drying wind; all of the research I have done indicates the heating occurs at the air/water interface within the coal. I also remember the only way to truly put out a coal fire was to bury it with packed overburden, no reasonable amount of water would do the job, and it was a bad idea to send any hot coal to the hopper for loadout.
There was a chemical product from GE that could be sprayed onto the coal to seal and reduce the chance of spon-com, but it was only used when the other options weren't practical, since the stuff was kind of spendy. The Asian export coals all require the application of the spon-com preventative, since no one wants a spon-com problem on a boat.
As for the dust issue, I really got a kick out of the chemical shown on the MSDS sheets used to for the "topper" treatment to control the dust on the train: poly vinyl acetate and a surfactant, basically white glue with something to break the surface tension of the droplets. Sounds familar to a model railroad hobbyist.
Hope that random bit of info helps.
Johnny - when I was pretty young, my Dad had fusees in his car trunk. He lit one to put out while he changed a tire and I was just sure it was going to explode. Wouldn't touch one even now. And having two left hands, I wouldn't dream of throwing anything - especially something with a wick. I would burn down the whole Lincoln yards.
Murphy Siding Maybe, the malicious trainwatcher was simply shopping for some lumps of coal for gifting to other forum members? In that case, the fire could only be accounted for by the fact that she was accompanied by a snowman wth a tophat and a corncob pipe! What's the world coming to?
Mookie Murphy Siding Maybe, the malicious trainwatcher was simply shopping for some lumps of coal for gifting to other forum members? In that case, the fire could only be accounted for by the fact that she was accompanied by a snowman wth a tophat and a corncob pipe! What's the world coming to? Get a really big sock ready, Bud!
Get a really big sock ready, Bud!
Deggesty challenger3980 Murphy Siding Suppose a malicious trainwatcher was to get up in a carload of coal in some out of the way place, like say Lincoln, Nebraska. How hard would it be for her to get a small fire lit in a big ol' pile of coal, and how would she get in and out of the car? There wouldn't be any need for her to get into (or out of again) the car, I would have to imagine that tossing a lit highway flare(or Fusee) into the car would likely get something in there burning. Doug Mookie, would a malicious trainwatcher have enough strength and the good aim to get a lit fusee up into a car loaded with coal? Would she have access to a supply of fusees?
Mookie, would a malicious trainwatcher have enough strength and the good aim to get a lit fusee up into a car loaded with coal? Would she have access to a supply of fusees?
There are hundreds of vehicle and pedestrian overpasses that coal trains pass under that a person can drop anything from. Yes, some have a chainlink fence that would prohibit dropping a bowlingball through, but some don't have a 'lid' over it to prevent a gentle toss of larger objects over the fence. I have seen kids tossing pennies into train cars, but not anything else (seeing someone watching them seems to be a deterent to tossing anything else!).
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Speaking of fusees...do they still look like the ones from the 1940's? Have they graduated to LED lights and not look like sticks of dynamite like they did? Maybe I wouldn't know one if I saw it.....not a clue!
I don't remember when I last saw a fusee, but I doubt that they have changed in shape. Back in 1959, I was riding from Statesville to Asheville on #21, and spent some time on the rear vestibule of the last car; the flagman had a topless box of fusees secured to the gate. At one point, a sixth? grade boy looked inside the box, and said, "Look at the dynamite!"
Are fusees that burn red for so many minutes and then yellow still used?
Should I have started a thread on fusees?
I last saw a fusee about two hours ago. I checked the flagging kit on the locomotive as I was getting off. Still required to have them, and a red flag. They still look the same, although I am seeing some shorter, five minute types mixed in with the usual ten minute ones. (I've even seen some 5 minute ones with CSX lettering.)
I've only seen red ones. I know there are, or were, other colors available including ones that would burn red, yellow than green (like Johnny said) but I've never seen one.
Jeff
The five-minute fusees were for use in suburban territory (one guy tried to give me one because I was too new to use a regular one once).I've never seen any color-changing fusees on the job. I know some railroads had rules in which yellow fusees were used instead of red. (So you needed both in your supplies.)No, Jen, no LED fusees (the amount of time they would burn was significant, and I doubt that a battery could be designed to last only that long). Also, no wicks. What may have looked like a wick was just the tape to pull to get the cap off and expose the sandpaper and the chemical that would light.As for throwing one on top of a loaded coal car, having the heft to get one up there would be no problem. However, when it landed it would likely be put out from the force of the impact. You could drop a fusee on the ground from a caboose platform and it would stay lit most of the time. However, the way to extinguish one is to give it a little more forceful contact with the ground.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
I know a guy who worked in the roundhouse at the Milwaukee Road here in town about 50 years ago. He told me a story about a local that went up the valley 15 miles to a quarry to pick up cars. On the way, the conductor lit a cigar with a fusee and then pitched the fusee out the window. On the way back, the train had to stop for the local fire department who was fighting a grass fire near a railroad bridge-started by the fusee. Possibility or tall tale?
Murphy SidingPossibility or tall tale?
Definitely possible. People manage to start grass fires with discarded cigarettes...
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