Listening to my scanner and fire dept on scene with a smoldering fire in only one car. I will go out on a limb and say spontaneous combustion. Is this unusual and could there be other causes?
She who has no signature! cinscocom-tmw
Mookie Listening to my scanner and fire dept on scene with a smoldering fire in only one car. I will go out on a limb and say spontaneous combustion. Is this unusual and could there be other causes?
I'll see your spontaneous combustion and raise you a vandalism!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Warm weather we've been having, isn't it?I suspect that there's a lot more smoke than fire, regardless of cause. If it was spontaneous combustion, it won't be easy to put out.We once had a smouldering load of garbage at the hump, back when old box cars were used for transporting it. I'd rather smell coal smoke, I think...
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
At the cleaning track in La Junta, we had a pile of dunnage that smoked and sizzled all winter, no flames visible. Tore it apart twice with a backhoe - no success. Spring flood on the Arkansas River finally put an end to it. The pile was mostly coal, waste ore, the little glass balls from the Geneva ore cars and whatever the yard cleaner broomed-up.
I would agree with the cat's diagnosis.
I once saw U.P. set out from unit train, a coal car that was smoldering. Local fire dept. put a lot of water into it. They kept feeling the side of the car and then dumping more water into it. They said they would remain on scene overnight to be sure it was out.
The general consensus of those at the scene was that someone had flicked a cigarette into it from an overpass. Whether true malicious intent vandalism, simple stupidity vandalism with no thought as to consequences, or just sheer stupidity on the part of the smoker there was some disagreement. There were a few that doubted that a cigarette could set coal on fire, but others said it was possible.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Coal spontaneously combusts, this is a real problem in stockpiles at mines and ports. I have seen some trains (which were loaded with old coal from the mine's outdoor pile, where the fire started) with fires in 20 or 30 cars, small fires that is which usually put themselves out or smoulder and only leave a small grey patch of ash on top. Those fires are common enough we don't think twice about seeing them.
Greetings from Alberta
-an Articulate Malcontent
As a kid, we used some coal for heating. I recall it being really hard to get lit. My how times have changed. Now the darn stuff lights itself.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
CShaveRR Warm weather we've been having, isn't it?I suspect that there's a lot more smoke than fire, regardless of cause. If it was spontaneous combustion, it won't be easy to put out.We once had a smouldering load of garbage at the hump, back when old box cars were used for transporting it. I'd rather smell coal smoke, I think...
Remember that coal can start burning inside a mine.
Johnny
Legend has it that the Titanic started its fateful voyage with a smoldering fire in a coal bunker which was deemed not to be enough of a problem to cancel the trip. Guess they should have stayed in port to put the fire out.
SD70M-2Dude Coal spontaneously combusts, this is a real problem in stockpiles at mines and ports. I have seen some trains (which were loaded with old coal from the mine's outdoor pile, where the fire started) with fires in 20 or 30 cars, small fires that is which usually put themselves out or smoulder and only leave a small grey patch of ash on top. Those fires are common enough we don't think twice about seeing them.
We go past the Fremont NE power plant when coming into town. Often you see them with end loaders going over the coal pile moving it around. When the plant runs a skeleton crew on holidays (such as Halloween ) they don't do that and you can sometimes see little bits of smoke and little patches of grey/white ash. It never amounts to any flame or fire that I've seen, but it's noticable if you're looking.
They once had to unload a car of coal at Boone because it had caught fire. If you look at a loaded coal train, you sometimes can see the little spots of ash. You might have even seen it without really noticing because the spots usually aren't very big. Of course, during the winter little white or grey spots might not be ash but something else.
Jeff
Straying a little off topic-- I seem to remember reading years ago about an underground fire in coal seams in an abandoned mine that had been burning for decades, in Pennsylvania, I think. Am I remembering right?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
Paul of Covington Straying a little off topic-- I seem to remember reading years ago about an underground fire in coal seams in an abandoned mine that had been burning for decades, in Pennsylvania, I think. Am I remembering right?
You are remembering right, and if I am not mistaken it is still burning today.
Laurel Run (PA) mine fire. Still burning.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurel_Run_mine_fire
Norm
bedell Legend has it that the Titanic started its fateful voyage with a smoldering fire in a coal bunker which was deemed not to be enough of a problem to cancel the trip. Guess they should have stayed in port to put the fire out.
Absolutely true. The cause of the fire was the coal hadn't been properly wetted down before loading, the combination of coal dust and static electricity started the fire.
Captain Smith was informed of the fire, a smouldering fire, not a rip-roaring blaze, and was told it was nothing the engine room crews couldn't handle, they'd get the fire extinguished. So, Captain Smith decided to acept the risk and proceed with the voyage.
Where the story gets hazy is just WHO finally put out the fire, the crew or the Atlantic Ocean.
And yes, coal isn't that easy to ignite. My grandparents had a coal furnace into the 1960's, and the procedure was to build a small wood fire and then add the coal to it. Or maybe it was that good Pennsylvania anthracite that was hard to ignite.
http://www.centraliapa.com/history.htm - 4th para.
http://www.businessinsider.com/coal-mines-in-centralia-pennsylvania-have-been-burning-since-1962-2015-7
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centralia,_Pennsylvania
http://www.centraliapa.org/
In the early 1960's, there were many such mine fires, esp. around the Scranton, PA area. For a few years there was an effort to extinguish them, which was mostly successful.
- Paul North.
In Superior Wisconsin there is a mountain of coal that comes from Wyoming via BNSF that gets shipped out on lake boats. Every summer when I'm by there big sprinklers are hosing down the coal to keep it from smoldering.
Details! I need details!
(my scanner is police/fire only)
Details? I'm a little far away to tell you much, but um...where there's smoke there's fire?
Murphy Siding..where there's smoke there's fire?
Or an ALCO that thinks it's a steam locomotive.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding In Superior Wisconsin there is a mountain of coal that comes from Wyoming via BNSF that gets shipped out on lake boats. Every summer when I'm by there big sprinklers are hosing down the coal to keep it from smoldering.
Growing up in Memphis, in the 1950's as a rail fan and (part-time fire buff) we were occasionally witness to similar, strange happenings regarding fire on the rails.
From time to time, the Frisco would bring across the Frisco Bridge ( Harahan) from Arkansas; flaming boxcars [some old,wood and outside-braced boxcars that were were stored, and then used to load bales of cotton from country gins to the big Federal Compresses at Memphis] . Sometimes the flames could be see through the top of the bridge; as the trains went to meet the Memphis FD waiting on the East side of the Mississippi. Most of the time, it was simply smoldering from spontaneous combustion within the bales, but occasionally, there would be a pretty spectacular show..
Then there was the Great Quaker Oats Corn cob fire of December 1958. That pile of cobs was almost a quarter of a mile long, and six to seven stories tall. It burned for almost a month while the MFD fought it with everything from bulldozers to apparatus 24/7.. The cobs came in by rail, and were stockpiled to be processed into chemicals. see link @ http://www.insidememphisbusiness.com/Inside-Memphis-Business/June-2014/The-Great-Corncob-Fire-of-1958/
If a coal car is on fire and the fire department pours 10,000 gallons of water onto it, or even if the coal train goes through heavy rains, doesn't the end consumer pay for a lot of water? Or is payment based on the weight when the coal left the mine?
The water drains out (the cars are constructed with small drain openings to let it go). I suspect (though this is not an area with which I'm familiar) that the coal companies pay for a trainload of X number of tons shipped. Water, even if it lasted long enough to go through the dumper, would be of little consequence in delivery of the product.There would be loss of product en route anyway, due to wind and other circumstances, all of which it's in everyone's interest to minimize.
CShaveRRThere would be loss of product en route anyway, due to wind and other circumstances, all of which it's in everyone's interest to minimize.
One would assume that it was probably PRB coal, or possibly Illinois coal. I suspect that VA coal would not take that route. There is no coal mined in NY that I'm aware of.
Whatever the source, the coal had already travelled quite a distance before reaching Utica, yet it was still shedding dust.
Could that coal have traveled thru the Great Lakes (eg. Duluth-Buffalo) and then put back on the train (churning up more dust) for final delivery to a plant?
CShaveRR The water drains out (the cars are constructed with small drain openings to let it go). I suspect (though this is not an area with which I'm familiar) that the coal companies pay for a trainload of X number of tons shipped. Water, even if it lasted long enough to go through the dumper, would be of little consequence in delivery of the product.There would be loss of product en route anyway, due to wind and other circumstances, all of which it's in everyone's interest to minimize.
Freight rates are applied on one of three weight system. Shippers Weight Agreement, wherein the shipper states and certifies the weight of product loaded. Destination Weight Agreement, wherein the consignee states and certifies the weight of product unloaded. The third method is Railroad Scale weights, where the product is weighed on railroad certified scales.
In today's world, bulk commodity trains are weighed on 'weigh in motion' scale systems. Car light weights are a part of their UMLER (Universal Machine Language Equipment Register) record. The standing order of cars in a train are known and the train moves across the motion scale - the weights are calculated in the recieving computer subtracting the UMLER light weight from the Gross weight indicated by the scale to give the net weight of the product.
All weights, no matter the method, are in 100 pound increments.
I am reasonably certain that they "spray" the coal before it leaves for delivery? What do they spray it with and does that keep it from leaving a dust trail?
Suppose a malicious trainwatcher was to get up in a carload of coal in some out of the way place, like say Lincoln, Nebraska. How hard would it be for her to get a small fire lit in a big ol' pile of coal, and how would she get in and out of the car?
Murphy Siding Suppose a malicious trainwatcher was to get up in a carload of coal in some out of the way place, like say Lincoln, Nebraska. How hard would it be for her to get a small fire lit in a big ol' pile of coal, and how would she get in and out of the car?
Mookie I am reasonably certain that they "spray" the coal before it leaves for delivery? What do they spray it with and does that keep it from leaving a dust trail?
"Blue Coal" was so called because it was sprayed with a blue dye, albeit to set it aside from other vendors. I don't know if it had any sealing effect.
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