Mass Shooting Near Railroad Track in San Bernardino, CA

[K. P. Harrier]

A related discussion about near the incident sites is in the “Perris Valley Line Updates (w/ Photos)” thread. (See December 19, 2015)

http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/214329.aspx?page=16

[daveklepper]

K.P.   If you contact me at [e-mail], be glad to attach to my reply the evidence as to why Islam ceased being a relgion of peace, for some, and became a source of terror.  It is a long story, but a logical one.

Remember that the Germans had Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schiller, Thomas Mann, the World's 1st University at Heidelberg (with some Jewish merchants contributing!), and yet adopted Naziism.   Of course they were pushed in that direction by ruinous terms at Versailles at the end of WWI, by England's winking at the early anti-Semitism as taking blame for problems off their shoulder, and the fact that the Nazis began with the minority Jews, just like Islamic Fundamentalist started - in 1929.  After Muslims had invited 70 Jewish families to return to Jerusalem after driving out the European Crusaders, Caliph of Jerusalem at the Jaffa dock to welcome the Jewish refugees from Spanisih Torquamadas inquisitioh, and much else of Jewish-Muslim friendship up to Colonial period. 

[ouibejamn]

rrnut282

Want to insult me, too?

Naw, what's the point.  Indiana, I think you've suffered enough already.

[rrnut282]

tdmidget

terrorist attack kills 14, injures 21 and the OP is concerned because it happened near a railroad track.

 Now that is what you call a narrow minded clown. The railroad had absolutely nothing to do with anything but that was your major focus? Do you think the bereaved families give a *** about how close it was to a rairoad track? You are the perfect definition of a foamer. 14 people die, and you are concerned that it was near a railroad track.

Gee, I saw the tracks on the news reports, too, and knowing ATSF had a large operation in the town, but not where this took place, wondered the same.  Want to insult me, too? 

[Norm48327]

K.P.,

Do you remember the novel "The Manchurian Candidate"? Some people can easily be convinced.

[K. P. Harrier]

Visiting the Area Saturday, December 12, 2015 …

… with Public Access

Below is the incident area (left background past the left side street, across from the center roadway divider shrubbery), with the Redlands Loop track in the foreground.  Redlands is to the left.

Obviously, everything is quiet now.

The grade crossing, among others in the area, is in preparation for redoing, with ballast and ties on site.

Looking inbound:

Outbound:

A final look:

The husband and wife team that shot-up the area and killed 14 had terrorist links.  As an American, I find it difficult to comprehend the radicalization process and the warping of the mind to hate their fellowman.  I wonder if the initiation process includes a needle injection of crazy juice.  Now, that would make sense!

[K. P. Harrier]

The “Sunset Route Two-Tracking Updates” thread has a post about the shoot-out being very near the lodging of trainmen, thus there was a major Sunset Route service disruption because lodging crew were under a lockdown situation.

Find that topic, page 227, the x:32 time on either December 7 or 8 depending on your time zone.  The above photo is in that post.

[BaltACD]

ChessieCat123

tdmidget

A terrorist attack kills 14, injures 21 and the OP is concerned because it happened near a railroad track.

 Now that is what you call a narrow minded clown. The railroad had absolutely nothing to do with anything but that was your major focus? Do you think the bereaved families give a *** about how close it was to a rairoad track? You are the perfect definition of a foamer. 14 people die, and you are concerned that it was near a railroad track.

This nation is in trouble, under attack , and you had better get your priorities straight.

This matters because operating a railroad thru a police/fire incident is a problem because no bothers to inform the railroad despite having there emergency number posted on the grade crossings.

More times than not, the authorities do notify the railroads.  At least in my territory of operations.  When railroads are notified - there is no big sign that gets hung up for all to see that the railroad has been notified.

[K. P. Harrier]

An Area Visit

The Wednesday, December 2, 2015 mass shooting site, at least close to it on the north side, was visited Saturday.  The main roadway artery, Waterman Ave., was still blocked off and the police presence was strong.

It was hoped that Waterman Ave. would have been open, and a photo taken near the tracks (with a crossing gate or gates) and the buildings where the incident took place all in view, but even after several days the scene is still under investigation and cordoned off for blocks.

The scene was more dramatic in person than the above photo suggests.  Because of a relatively fast shutter speed, most of the squad car’s flashing lights were off during the split second the shutter captured the scene.  Most were on and flashing.

For those that are halfway local, they may be interested to know that the grade crossings in the immediate area had much ballast poured trackside, obviously the first step in rebuilding the line to commuter train standards.  The track presently is in a rather deplorable condition, and photos of that were hoped to be taken, but to no avail because of the road closures.

[tree68]

tdmidget

...OP is concerned because it happened near a railroad track.

Wouldn't be the first post on the forum with only a slim, slim tie to railroading - there have been many instances of an otherwise off-topic thread having only a passing connection to railroading in any form.  Such threads usually contain at least on post saying something to the effect of "keeping this rail-oriented..."

I don't think the OP meant to minimize any aspect of the incident.  Those of us in fire and EMS are more focused on the response than the carnage.  But that doesn't mean we don't care about the victims and their families.  

You'll note that there was discussion on how the incident might affect traffic on the line.  This is little different from discussing how a major fire might affect traffic on a line.

 

[tdmidget]

A terrorist attack kills 14, injures 21 and the OP is concerned because it happened near a railroad track.

 Now that is what you call a narrow minded clown. The railroad had absolutely nothing to do with anything but that was your major focus? Do you think the bereaved families give a *** about how close it was to a rairoad track? You are the perfect definition of a foamer. 14 people die, and you are concerned that it was near a railroad track.

This nation is in trouble, under attack , and you had better get your priorities straight.

[usmc1401]

County of Los Angeles Fire department lost a new fire engine to UP local going ten miles per. This was about ten yeas ago on the former PE/SP El Segundo CA branch.

[schlimm]

wanswheel

I think it was a combination of preplanned and spur of the moment. Terrorists waiting for the right time and place, suddenly deciding this will do. Perhaps this awfulness is the least worse they might’ve done.

 

The presence of several pipe bombs in their house along with the discovery they were in contact with local "persons of interest" i.e., persons suspected of contacts with known terrorist groups, leads me to revise my opinion and see this as a terrorist attack.

[tree68]

BaltACD

Potentially - they notified the track owner to hold traffic on the line.  My carrier gets frequent calls from local authorities to hold traffic because of Emergency Perosnnel (Fire & Police) activities.

That's SOP around here - and I preach it to fire officers whenever possible.  Our county fire coordinator's home fire department is on the local CSX line, so it's high in his mind when appropriate.

[BaltACD]

K. P. Harrier

Phoebe Vet (12-3):

Phoebe Vet

 

At the risk of making this thread about TRAINS, While watching this in progress on TV I saw a fire truck parked across the track.

With the live coverage yesterday of the shooting incident aftermath, like you I was surprised to see fire engines and trucks parked on the nearby railroad track.  From what I know from insiders, the San Bernardino Fire Dept. totally emptied their stations and sent all their equipment to the shooting site; and in accord with mutual aid agreements in place, the community had to wait for surrounding communities to jockey their equipment so some fire stations were again manned by mutual aid fireman and equipment.

The speed limit on that track, I believe, is 10 M.P.H., so there probably wasn’t any real danger to firemen or their equipment.  But, that certainly wasn’t a very good example for the population to see.  A few miles away are both the BNSF Transcon and the UP Sunset Route.  On those lines a city losing a fire engine or truck would be a costly and embarrassing situation for the city.

It may be because of the railroads’ history of eliminating grade crossings and a new generation of firefighters coming onboard that they may not have the respect for railroads that their ancestors had.  Sometimes we as railroaders and / or railfans take for granted the reality of trains.  And, that doesn’t bode well for cities whom likely will lose more fire equipment by trains.

Take care,

K.P.

Potentially - they notified the track owner to hold traffic on the line.  My carrier gets frequent calls from local authorities to hold traffic because of Emergency Perosnnel (Fire & Police) activities.

[K. P. Harrier]

Phoebe Vet (12-3):

Phoebe Vet

At the risk of making this thread about TRAINS, While watching this in progress on TV I saw a fire truck parked across the track. 

With the live coverage yesterday of the shooting incident aftermath, like you I was surprised to see fire engines and trucks parked on the nearby railroad track.  From what I know from insiders, the San Bernardino Fire Dept. totally emptied their stations and sent all their equipment to the shooting site; and in accord with mutual aid agreements in place, the community had to wait for surrounding communities to jockey their equipment so some fire stations were again manned by mutual aid fireman and equipment.

The speed limit on that track, I believe, is 10 M.P.H., so there probably wasn’t any real danger to firemen or their equipment.  But, that certainly wasn’t a very good example for the population to see.  A few miles away are both the BNSF Transcon and the UP Sunset Route.  On those lines a city losing a fire engine or truck would be a costly and embarrassing situation for the city.

It may be because of the railroads’ history of eliminating grade crossings and a new generation of firefighters coming onboard that they may not have the respect for railroads that their ancestors had.  Sometimes we as railroaders and / or railfans take for granted the reality of trains.  And, that doesn’t bode well for cities whom likely will lose more fire equipment by trains.

Take care,

K.P.

[wanswheel]

I think it was a combination of preplanned and spur of the moment. Terrorists waiting for the right time and place, suddenly deciding this will do. Perhaps this awfulness is the least worse they might’ve done.

[Norm48327]

Euclid

The attack may have been planned prior to the argument, and the argument set it off; or the attack may have been intended to be carried out regardless of the argument.

Given California's Draconian gun laws, one does not run around town with two Ar-15's and two handguns and plenty of ammunition in the car unless they are planning on doing some serious damage. At this point, it appears to have been planned but the motive remains unclear. Hopefully, the FBI will get to the bottom if it. In the mean time, it would behove those in Washington screaming for more gun control to shut their mouths.

[edblysard]

Euclid

 

schlimm

 

Euclid

The level of the shooters' preparedness indicates to me that this was highly unlikely to be a case of personal workplace violence.  Workplace violence typically is rather rash and spontaneous.  It does not involve the massing of guns, ammo, pipe bombs, bomb-making materials and information, bullet proof vests, and assault style garb. 

 

 

 

 

Then why did the shooter go to the party first, argue with unnamed person(s) and then return and murder?   If he and his wife had a pre-arranged plan, he likely would not have gone there and argued in advance.  He might have gone there to "case out" the place in advance but would not have made an emotional scene, lest that tip off potential victims or get the police called in and spoil his "plan."

 

 

 

Although it was reported that the shooter went to the party and argued with someone, we cannot conclude that that means he simply got into an argument with one person, and that the whole conflict began there because of that argument.

The attack may have been planned prior to the argument, and the argument set it off; or the attack may have been intended to be carried out regardless of the argument. 

The argument may have just been an unplanned facet of the overall unfolding of the conflict.   

 

Goodness, we agree on something....

[CBT]

Will they still beable to operate the line through there?

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

ChessieCat123

Arming and training teachers and those in the education system would make someone think twice before pulling off this BS.

And how you reply to those teachers who do not wish to carry deadly force in the classroom since it could make a bad situation worse?

[Euclid]

schlimm

 

Euclid

The level of the shooters' preparedness indicates to me that this was highly unlikely to be a case of personal workplace violence.  Workplace violence typically is rather rash and spontaneous.  It does not involve the massing of guns, ammo, pipe bombs, bomb-making materials and information, bullet proof vests, and assault style garb. 

 

 

 

 

Then why did the shooter go to the party first, argue with unnamed person(s) and then return and murder?   If he and his wife had a pre-arranged plan, he likely would not have gone there and argued in advance.  He might have gone there to "case out" the place in advance but would not have made an emotional scene, lest that tip off potential victims or get the police called in and spoil his "plan."

 

Although it was reported that the shooter went to the party and argued with someone, we cannot conclude that that means he simply got into an argument with one person, and that the whole conflict began there because of that argument.

The attack may have been planned prior to the argument, and the argument set it off; or the attack may have been intended to be carried out regardless of the argument. 

The argument may have just been an unplanned facet of the overall unfolding of the conflict.   

[Norm48327]

schlimm

Then why did the shooter go to the party first, argue with unnamed person(s) and then return and murder?

As Balt said, "We can't read the minds of the dead". But his motive to visit first may have been to make certain a particular individual against whom he may have had a grudge was there so he could get the redress he thought was necessary.

The news reports are saying the perp's home was an arsenal and IED bomb factory. That sort of precludes the simple explanation of a disgruntled employee seeking revenge for a perceived wrong.

[BaltACD]

schlimm

Euclid

The level of the shooters' preparedness indicates to me that this was highly unlikely to be a case of personal workplace violence.  Workplace violence typically is rather rash and spontaneous.  It does not involve the massing of guns, ammo, pipe bombs, bomb-making materials and information, bullet proof vests, and assault style garb.

Then why did the shooter go to the party first, argue with unnamed person(s) and then return and murder?   If he and his wife had a pre-arranged plan, he likely would not have gone there and argued in advance.  He might have gone there to "case out" the place in advance but would not have made an emotional scene, lest that tip off potential victims or get the police called in and spoil his "plan."

Unfortunately, we have yet to perfect the means to interrogate the minds of the dead for their actual motives and intentions.

[schlimm]

Euclid

The level of the shooters' preparedness indicates to me that this was highly unlikely to be a case of personal workplace violence.  Workplace violence typically is rather rash and spontaneous.  It does not involve the massing of guns, ammo, pipe bombs, bomb-making materials and information, bullet proof vests, and assault style garb. 

 

Then why did the shooter go to the party first, argue with unnamed person(s) and then return and murder?   If he and his wife had a pre-arranged plan, he likely would not have gone there and argued in advance.  He might have gone there to "case out" the place in advance but would not have made an emotional scene, lest that tip off potential victims or get the police called in and spoil his "plan."

[Euclid]

The level of the shooters' preparedness indicates to me that this was highly unlikely to be a case of personal workplace violence.  Workplace violence typically is rather rash and spontaneous.  It does not involve the massing of guns, ammo, pipe bombs, bomb-making materials and information, bullet proof vests, and assault style garb. 

[wanswheel]

It doesn’t help that the mass murderer gets to hijack the TV and the internet for hours and days, inspiring  more angry punks to plot their blaze of glory.  It was better when Huntley-Brinkley didn’t have the satellites and the helicopter cams and the bad guys had to do without the instantaneous fame.

[tree68]

schlimm

However, since the man was an employee of the agency holding the party and had gotten into an argument there with others, it seems likely it was personal (likely a mental illness involvement) and had nothing to do with political terrorism...

I would opine that terrorism, as we commonly think of it, had nothing to do with the incident.  OTOH, it was reported as being a Christmas/holiday party, and the difference in the beliefs of the partygoers and the assailants may well have been a factor.

We'll have to wait until the final story comes out.

Whether it's a gun issue or a religious issue, it's not going to end well.

[schlimm]

Euclid

It may have been a form of personal revenge, but authorities are considering that it was terrorism based on jihad and the question of whether the shooters were influenced to act or trained with that motive.  

 

A thorough investigation must consider some form of terrorism in either the broad or narrow sense.  However, since the man was an employee of the agency holding the party and had gotten into an argument there with others, it seems likely it was personal (likely a mental illness involvement) and had nothing to do with political terrorism, whether jihadist-inspired or the anti-abortion type as in Colorado Springs.