david l stricklin Why cant the Toll road Tunnel underneath Bensonville yard. Tunnel the whole thing from 294 to Ohare.
Why cant the Toll road Tunnel underneath Bensonville yard.
Tunnel the whole thing from 294 to Ohare.
Murphy Siding Carl- I'll second that thanks for the decsription. I was able to follow the route on Google Maps as well. (So easy, even a caveman could do it.) If this has reached a point where there's talk of condemnation and eminent domain, does that mean they're already past the part where an offer to buy the land outright was made?
Carl- I'll second that thanks for the decsription. I was able to follow the route on Google Maps as well. (So easy, even a caveman could do it.) If this has reached a point where there's talk of condemnation and eminent domain, does that mean they're already past the part where an offer to buy the land outright was made?
Since you asked,K.P., my opinion is that there are no dying railroads here, unless they're committing suicide. Bensenville used to be a major classification yard, and they've eliminated that function, for the most part, moving those duties up to St. Paul. The tracks that need to be bridged by the new road are part of the old receiving yard, I think. Intermodal stuff is considerably to the east of this area. If CP has any plans for building here after decommissioning so much, I'd be really curious. As I said, they just don't want to give up land...but I don't know who would have given them a better deal for land that they're not going to use again. Maybe if this goes to court they'll come up with something, otherwise I'll stand by what I said just now.Thanks for the direct links to the map.Most of the industries being pushed out by the highway are small ones like the granite-polishing firm; I think they have to be paid to move (I could be wrong about that), and there are plenty of places that could house them (again an assessment based on what I've seen in the way of vacant buildings).And the railroads losing out on road or highway construction projects is nothing really new...I've seen a few examples on "my" line (CNW's east-west main line) where the railroad countered a proposal with something totally ridiculous, and gained nothing or next to nothing.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Well, I did say "Approx. location". And it was somewhat better than a mere opinion - an estimate of the location based on the pproportions from the (limited) references that I cited. Happens to be the first attempt here to do that, too.
Nevertheless, thanks to the others who did more research and provided more accurate and precise locations.
- Paul North.
Norm48327 The map of the proposed tollway shows the road east of the railroads. That would place it on airport property and close to the approach ends of runways 10L and 10C. The FAA would likely be involved, and they are very resistent to any incursion on safety areas near runways.
The map of the proposed tollway shows the road east of the railroads. That would place it on airport property and close to the approach ends of runways 10L and 10C. The FAA would likely be involved, and they are very resistent to any incursion on safety areas near runways.
Looks like maybe 1200 feet from the runway ends. I believe they checked with the FAA and the City of Chicago, which owns the land under O'Hare itself.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Norm
I'm not sure how dead the businesses are on Frankin/Green St are but when I got my kitchen granite countertops about three years ago, they were cut and polished there. Though I do recall the owner said he was going to have to move. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. If you look at Google earth, the tollway will go between the Ex C&NW/MLW now UP/CP and the end of the two EW runways. Looks like the runway approach landing lights are where the Tollway would go. Used to park on York road in the 60's and watch the birds land but that seems pretty tight between the RR & the end of Runway. The airport took out a cemetary and many houses in that area to build the three runways, and moved Irving park road South up against the RR property.
From the map, I'm not clear what RR property the Tollway needs except to build piers for bridges. The Tollway has to go up over the UP's line which is going over the CP's yard. Building "flyovers" is something highway engineers love to do.
I suspect there will be many meetings between the CP & the tollway to resolve what the tollway will pay to get what they need and that this was an opening gambit in the negotiations.
Thought I remembered this in my wayback:
http://www.rtands.com/index.php/track-structure/ballast-ties-rail/rail-line-relocation-boosts-o.html
I suspect that the tollway's new wrinkle is contrary to what was agreed to in the previous O'Hare expansion project. Would not be surprised at all if the tollway is destroying CP's long term expansion planning by cabbaging property that CP just bought (at a higher price than the quasi public toll authority is willing to pay for) for its expansion. taking a big bite out of CP's elbow-room is rubbing a railroad raw (the wrong way)....CP's construction of a new yard and support facilty is fairly obvious, would love to see what THAT railroad long range plan for that area looks like. It isn't as much the York Road area as it might be County Line to Wolf Road in conjunction with the 4L & 4R crosswind extensions plus the now defunct West OHare satellite terminal. (Which sorta appears in the PDF.)
I need a new scorecard to see what's been promised and what's still on the books.
......."Don't fence me in".... ...
"Nevermind!"
N012944 (11-16):
Anyway, since you’ve taken sides, what is your solution? Does a dying railroad justify the government cutting off their arms for the public good?
What railroad is "dying"?
Well, just a bit of ironic sarcasm, I suppose, based on what CShaveRR said in his fine, enlightening, detailed post …
CShaveRR … CP's attitude is basically that of the dog in the manger, especially considering how they've done nothing but cut back operations at Bensenville since EHH took over …
Cutting back could be a sign of desperation, OR cutting the fat out of operations. Railroads are notorious for the first, but in latter days the latter is dominating. This western contributor is unfamiliar with the actual situation at the site in question, and it is desirable to learn more. But, it strikes me that the railroad will win. If it doesn’t, WE are all in trouble! Can you imagine the government saying a project is more important than the Transcon, and BNSF would just have live with their line being severed?
Take care,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
K. P. Harrier Anyway, since you’ve taken sides, what is your solution? Does a dying railroad justify the government cutting off their arms for the public good?
An "expensive model collector"
CShaveRR (11-16):
Hi, Carl!
I had to go to the ‘site map’ at the site you suggested, and was able to locate what you suggested that way; however, the link wouldn’t work on my computer, nor the links provided by others. Oh, well.
Curious minds want to know,
This should help
http://www.illinoistollway.com/documents/10157/8320517/4_EOWA_ConceptPlan_WesternAccess_I-294
A link to the map of the proposed route.
Whose tracks are curving on the Western Boundry of O'Hare, I've seen CP trains on them and thought they also belonged to CP? Is that Belt Railway of Chicago?
O'Hare was pretty easy to get to from Shaumburg, IL from the year I spent up there not too long ago. Western access was OK but done via surface streets, is that what they are trying to fix? Have Western access be entirely Freeway?
Carl,
Thaks for the description. I was able to follow it on Google Earth and draw a mental picture. Can you link o that map?
I agree that a map showing the proposed route is a must. Norris, the proposed interchange is indeed for the new tollway going west of the airport. I was able to find a map showing what is planned. Interstate 294 will be improved and made into an interchange from all the way down by North Avenue (Illinois 64) northward. The new route will finally leave 294 beyond the "Grand Avenue Curve" and east of the Union Pacific overpass. It will continue east of the UP until just south of Franklin Avenue (Green Street), where it will curve toward the west, crossing Franklin Avenue and the UP at about the same spot. The interchang in question is basically a northward extension of County Line Road beyond Green Street/Franklin Avenue (the name changes at the county line). From its cossing of Franklin Avenue, the new road will settle into the area between Green Street and the railroad, taking out a bunch of small factories but mostly covering vacant land owned by the CP itself. For those who remember where the diesel shop was, it will probably be under the new road, and that large building they built to the east of the old shop area will have to go, as will the still-standing turntable. But the only trackage in jeopardy (as shown on the Google map) is the single line considerably to the south of everything else. The interchange at Green Street/Franklin Avenue is only a partial connection, between the tollway to the north of the street and the street itself (i.e., you won't be able to use Green Street to get onto the new road going south, or exit from the south to Green Street).The new highway will then curve to the north, crossing over both railroads at about the point where the UP separates from the CP, making its easier curve. For the stretch along the western edge of the airport, the highway will be east of the two railroads. The interchange between the new road and the also-new Elgin-O'Hare tollway will feature no fewer than five bridges over the tracks.Looking at all of this, I would say that the tollway's plans are fairly sound (but what do I know?). CP's attitude is basically that of the dog in the manger, especially considering how they've done nothing but cut back operations at Bensenville since EHH took over. Most of the casualties along the south end of the new route and the eastern part of Illinois 390 ("Elgin-O'Hare") will be light-industry buildings, a number of which are probaby vacant anyway (some have already been torn down). It doesn't appear that any more of Bensenville's (the city/village) footprint will be impacted by this. I don't see how CP's suggestion for an interchange south of Green Street (instead of north, on CP property) would work at all, given the map I saw.That map, by the way: go to Illinoistollway.com. Look for Elgin O'Hare Western Access (EOWA) Project Overview. Scroll down, and under "EOWA Land Acquisition Documents" click on "EOWA Concept Plan Drawing - Western Access (pdf)".I can't side with the railroad on this one.
Murphy Siding (11-16):
You wrote, “Surely a project this far along in the design process ...” It may be. But the situation shows up a flaw in the higher education system. Higher education seems to teach the condemnation of property as a last option. Higher education did NOT teach them, however, that that is just NOT an option with a railroad.
Anybody for making some money by writing a book on the subject BEFORE word gets around?
Reading the articles and looking at the map provided and Google Maps, it's not really clear where the new road is proposed to go. The only thing I can figure out is that it appears that a new interchange would be built in the southeat corner of the rail yard, using the railroad's property. That property seems to currently be occupied by lots of containers, both east and west of the tollway. If that interchange is for a new tollway coming around from the west of the airport as the article seems to suggest, it looks like it would indeed go right through a main part of the yard from southeast to northwest. Surely a project this far along in the design process has some more defined maps available to the public?
With all the seriousness of the matter if it comes to a vote, Al Capone will take the train to Chi town and vote early and often as in the past.
Y6bs evergreen in my mind
Norm48327 schlimm, Paul North provided a link to a map that shows the road crossing the center of the CP yard.
schlimm,
Paul North provided a link to a map that shows the road crossing the center of the CP yard.
That was his opinion based on a very poor "map", really just an inaccurate sketch (Taft ave. is shown going in the wrong diection). Neither Carl nor I, who are more familiar with the area, would say it goes through the middle of the yard. Probably it would go from York Rd along the north side of Green St. (south edge of the yard) and then turn south to connect to I 294. But as I said, to draw any real conclusions would require te actual planning map.
https://www.google.com/maps/@41.9544158,-87.9272908,15.25z
No, the do not pass go. Aks ex govenor Bronkdonovich. I believe he is currently residing in the federal prison in Norht Carolina.
Reading the IDOT plan is entertaining: "greenest plans" -- no road is green, it just encourages more cars, "reduced congestion" -- widening roads don't reduce congestion, they just move it to a new area. When are road designers going to realize that adding lanes and parking spots is what got them where they are.
From the articles etc., my recollections of the area from not long ago and the view on Earth, that SW corner of the Bensenville yard property appears quite empty. The yard and intermodal are to the east. But without details of the precise route of the road, it's hard to tell what the impact might actually be. But that doesn't stop a bunch of speculation on here as though this were a catastrophic, cataclysmic event.
CShaveRR I suspect that the land the Toll Highway Authority is after is land owned by the CP which is currently vacant. They would build an overpass over the yard leads and main lines, all of which run east-west at this point, and the tollway wants to go north-south. (Mind you, I have not seen a map of this north-south segment...I've been wondering how they can possibly shoehorn any more infrastructure in that corridor!).This will also pit CP against Bensenville. That city has been hard-hit by the airport expansion (and resultant railroad relocation). The new road will cut a swath through Bensenville at some point, and suggesting that even more land and buildings (light industry and bars along Green Street at this point, IIRC). I think the railroad is just holding out for a better deal--about the only thing they'd use the property for would be to park more trailers (further observations contingent upon seeing a map of were they want the road to go).
I suspect that the land the Toll Highway Authority is after is land owned by the CP which is currently vacant. They would build an overpass over the yard leads and main lines, all of which run east-west at this point, and the tollway wants to go north-south. (Mind you, I have not seen a map of this north-south segment...I've been wondering how they can possibly shoehorn any more infrastructure in that corridor!).This will also pit CP against Bensenville. That city has been hard-hit by the airport expansion (and resultant railroad relocation). The new road will cut a swath through Bensenville at some point, and suggesting that even more land and buildings (light industry and bars along Green Street at this point, IIRC). I think the railroad is just holding out for a better deal--about the only thing they'd use the property for would be to park more trailers (further observations contingent upon seeing a map of were they want the road to go).
I just looked at the location via Mapquest and I don't see that kind of open acreage the Tollway is requesting on what appears to be CP property.........all I see is tracks and most are in use. Looks like their intermodal yard is space constrained quite a bit but I don't know how much of that they use or need.
I too think the Railroad has a solid case though.
At last, a voice of locally informed reason.
Link to Tollway Map: http://www.illinoistollway.com/construction-and-planning/projects-by-roadway/elgin-o-hare-western-access
at: http://www.illinoistollway.com/move-illinois
Approx. location: N 41 56.967' W 87 54.704'
I have to wonder what the Tollway is thinking here. Does it have incompetent advisors, who don't know that the STB will supersede their local action ? Or are they hoping for a Federal amendment to the STB Act to preclude that and give their project special status ? (If so, maybe they waited too long - the Chicago-oriented politicians won't have too much longer in Washington, D.C., and the opposition party controls both houses of Congress.) Or - as the linked article mentions near the end - are they intending to make the STB and CP the scapegoats when the proposed route has to be altered to avoid CP's yard ? Or are they hoping to cut a deal to allow reconfiguration of the yard (and perhaps some improvements, maybe on a CREATE project ?) to allow the Tollway to build over the yard by "air rights" ? Having a 'roof' overhead of the tracks and yard wouldn't be a bad thing for CP in a Chicago winter and heavy snowfalls, either.
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