In this day and age of smart technology are lineside signals still really needed? The same information could be sent to crews via much cheaper devices in the cab. Or is that not the case? Buying, installing, and maintaining all those signals must cost a mint.
Those lineside signals will always be a help....some of us still wish to heck the old motorcar indicators were still around.
(there are plenty of buttonpushing morons out there that should be denied access to GIS and GPS because of the false sense of security created - many of those are the ones that think PTC implementation is so simple and have not a clue about the reliability issues that come with the beta versions of that black box technology that they have been hornswaggled into blindly believing is the neatest thing since sliced bread.)
UlrichIn this day and age of smart technology are lineside signals still really needed?
Would self-driving cars obviate the need for stop lights?
Norm
mudchicken Those lineside signals will always be a help....some of us still wish to heck the old motorcar indicators were still around. (there are plenty of buttonpushing morons out there that should be denied access to GIS and GPS because of the false sense of security created
(there are plenty of buttonpushing morons out there that should be denied access to GIS and GPS because of the false sense of security created
blue streak 1 mudchicken Those lineside signals will always be a help....some of us still wish to heck the old motorcar indicators were still around. (there are plenty of buttonpushing morons out there that should be denied access to GIS and GPS because of the false sense of security created MC: Absolutely. What is worse are the manufacturers who foist these push buttons onto unsuspecting people. Think of Airbus that has built software that fly aircraft into peril that pilots cannot over ride.
And pilots that have forgotten how to fly because all their recent flight hours are where the computer does the flying.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Norm48327 Ulrich In this day and age of smart technology are lineside signals still really needed? Would self-driving cars obviate the need for stop lights?
Ulrich In this day and age of smart technology are lineside signals still really needed?
Probably. Toyota is developing a system whereby cars "communicate" with each other and the roadway.. no conventional signals as we know them today would be required. But that's another story.. we're talking about railroad signals here.
BaltACD blue streak 1 mudchicken Those lineside signals will always be a help....some of us still wish to heck the old motorcar indicators were still around. (there are plenty of buttonpushing morons out there that should be denied access to GIS and GPS because of the false sense of security created MC: Absolutely. What is worse are the manufacturers who foist these push buttons onto unsuspecting people. Think of Airbus that has built software that fly aircraft into peril that pilots cannot over ride. And pilots that have forgotten how to fly because all their recent flight hours are where the computer does the flying.
And it is still much safer to fly anywhere than it is to venture out in one's car..
http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/10/31/study-self-driving-cars-accidents/74946614/
"Even though they haven't been at fault, self-driving test cars are involved in crashes at five times the rate of conventional cars, a new study finds."
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
Cab signals are not used on CN or CP in Canada. Most guys don't even know what they are. So, yes, they are of the utmost importance.
10000 feet and no dynamics? Today is going to be a good day ...
DSchmitt Norm48327 Ulrich In this day and age of smart technology are lineside signals still really needed? Would self-driving cars obviate the need for stop lights? http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2015/10/31/study-self-driving-cars-accidents/74946614/ "Even though they haven't been at fault, self-driving test cars are involved in crashes at five times the rate of conventional cars, a new study finds."
It's new technology.. give it time. Railroads weren't all that safe either 150 years ago.
I think Positive Train Control could eliminate the need for intermediate block signals, if the railroads wished to do away with them, but, given the fact that something that may be a PTC antenna has been installed on or by many of them, I don't think that's going to happen.Control point signals, and perhaps the approach signals thereto, probably will stay no matter what. Back when I hired out, the CNW main line was protected by Automatic Train Control, with cab signals. There were no intermediate block signals at all--just distant signals and home signals for the interlockings. When UP came in, intermediate signals were installed...ATC and cab signals are still in force as well. I suspect those will disappear when PTC is operational (UP expects to make the new 2018 deadline).
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
Seems to me that, at present, cab signals are the redundancy.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
What so bad about cab signals? Are they hard on the eyes?
Having developed the requirements, analyzed systems and written more programs than I wish to count, I can tell you that the more complex the system the more prone it is to errors. No matter how much testing you do on the software, you cannot think of every situation that PTC will encounter and program it into the system. In addition their is an old trueism in the computer world "GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT". In other words bad data will result in bad results.
Ulrich What so bad about cab signals? Are they hard on the eyes?
mudchicken Ulrich What so bad about cab signals? Are they hard on the eyes? When you're preoccupied with watching a screen instead of looking out the wndow/ windshield. I-Zombies gone railroading.
When you're preoccupied with watching a screen instead of looking out the wndow/ windshield. I-Zombies gone railroading.
That would be news to the aviation industry... instrument flying.. (pilots not looking out the window) can't be all that safe then either.
caldreamer Having developed the requirements, analyzed systems and written more programs than I wish to count, I can tell you that the more complex the system the more prone it is to errors. No matter how much testing you do on the software, you cannot think of every situation that PTC will encounter and program it into the system. In addition their is an old trueism in the computer world "GARBAGE IN, GARBAGE OUT". In other words bad data will result in bad results.
Apparently lineside signalling falls short... hence the push for PTC. Signals (lineside or otherwise) don't matter if no one is watching them.
What do you do if the cab signals fail? Without cab signals (under our rules) you can run on wayside indications, not exceeding 40 mph without an absolute block. Once you receive an absolute block, you can run up to 79mph on wayside indications. Without wayside indications and without an absolute block, you can run at Restricted Speed.
With wayside signals, it's easier to authorize an absolute block. You can't pass a Stop, Restricted Proceed, Restricting (except to clear the main track at a switch immediately past the signal) without permission. With waysides then the Block can be established with trains ahead within the abolute block limits. Routinely when giving us an abolute block the dispatchers give it for the entire crew's run. Without waysides, there can't be any train ahead within the absolute block limits. The blocks granted were shorter or sometimes they couldn't give one at all and you had to run at restricted speed. I remember a few times due to heavy traffic where we ran 15 or 20 miles at restricted speed.
Waysides also allow non-equipped engines to operate, where allowed by timetable/special instructions, to operate between certain points. For example, trains between Council Bluffs and Sioux City don't need to have an ATC equipped engine to operate between CB and Missouri Valley, Iowa. They can run 40 mph on wayside signals. (I've read that PTC ws also to have such a provision to allow a railroad that doesn't otherwise need PTC, such as a short line, to operate up to 20 miles over a PTC equipped line.)
Without the wayside signals, you still have to maintain all the circuitry for the blocks. Then you have to have the extra gear that transmits the signal code pulses through the rails. You have to maintain the receiving gear on the locomotives. No matter which route is taken, keeping trains apart on a busy main track isn't going to be cheap.
Jeff
Aren't lineside signal defined as the back-up to PTC?
mudchickenWhen you're preoccupied with watching a screen instead of looking out the wndow/ windshield. I-Zombies gone railroading.
Not really. We have territory that is cab signals without waysides. Works fine. Cab signal tree is between teh windshields (or above it). A quick glance out the corner of your eye and you know what you are running under. If the aspect goes more restricting, you have to acknowledge it. (and you quickly learn the cut sections).
A lot safer than relying on waysides only, IMO.
Plus it's a lot more efficient. Wihtout cab signals you have to run long blocks under approaches (or restrictings) until you find your next signal. Under cabs, as soon as the track opens up, the cab signals go up, and off you go. It's awesomeness.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.
I speculate that the complete replacement of wayside signals with cab signals is inevitable. It just hasn't happened yet.
It HAS happened on Metro North. In 1996, while I was still commuting between GCT and WPlains North Sta., the only wayside signal still left in operation from Mott Haven to White Plains North Station were approach and home signals for interlockings. I believe this has been expanded since to the entire electrified terratory, both Hudson and Harlem, north of Mott Haven, and possibly also the four tracks into GCT. Not sure about the New Haven or other diesel territory. I think floating-block technology may have been applied at the same time, but I a unsure about this.
All seems so strange to hear all these different operating styles. In Canada in CTC it's all about the block signals. VIA is allowed to do 100mph in the standard CTC.
I don't know why anyone would want the railroads to take down the block signals. Not only do they give information about what's ahead they split up sections of track. It would be tough to not have that marked.
Cab signals would be great for foggy and around a blind curve situations but we get along fine without it.
As technology advances (not to mention PTC), I would opine that even cab signals that get their information from the rails will go the way of the dodo.
The only reason to have track circuits will be to indicate that something is shunting (shorting) the rails or that there is an open (broken rail). Eventually, I'd bet that every car will have a GPS/transponder.
We aren't really that far from there now.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
UM......
(1) More than just the folks in the cab of a locomotive depend on lineside signals.
(2) The big organic processor behind the eyes and between the ears is the biggest safety device out there. Trading that in and running solely on electronics will just create another WMATA tragedy.
Playing the devil's advocate...
When I'm sitting in Deshler, waiting for the next train to pass, I'm watching ATCS, not the signals. Sometimes we'll check the signals to see if they confirm what we're seeing on the screen...
There's no doubt that lineside signals are valuable tools, but I do feel that technology will render them obsolete in most cases.
Recall that a device has already been developed that will warn motorists of the presence of an emergency vehicle in the area.
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