NKP guy I told you so. The news that Congress has passed and the President has signed the PTC extension proves me right: the federal government will not allow the railroads to shut down and disrupt the economy (the heck with passengers; no one cares about us). I predicted this some weeks or months ago when this issue surfaced here in the forum. There was never any reason to get one's undies in a knot on this point, as many here have.
I told you so.
The news that Congress has passed and the President has signed the PTC extension proves me right: the federal government will not allow the railroads to shut down and disrupt the economy (the heck with passengers; no one cares about us). I predicted this some weeks or months ago when this issue surfaced here in the forum. There was never any reason to get one's undies in a knot on this point, as many here have.
I think there was every reason to worry. I'm actually surprised it happened. There are some members of congress who are so ideologically driven that they would be willing to go to extremes to get what they want. I'm surprised some of those didn't offer amendments that they want that they know the President wouldn't normally sign. So what if it would collapse the economy as long as we can blame the person holding the White House.
I think it wasn't so much the railroads as their customers who held sway. Once they started telling congress what would happen, congress listened.
Jeff
NS is going to keep hauling the chemical loads, now that the PTC deadline has been extended.
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jeffhergert NKP guy I told you so. The news that Congress has passed and the President has signed the PTC extension proves me right: the federal government will not allow the railroads to shut down and disrupt the economy (the heck with passengers; no one cares about us). I predicted this some weeks or months ago when this issue surfaced here in the forum. There was never any reason to get one's undies in a knot on this point, as many here have. I think there was every reason to worry. I'm actually surprised it happened. There are some members of congress who are so ideologically driven that they would be willing to go to extremes to get what they want. I'm surprised some of those didn't offer amendments that they want that they know the President wouldn't normally sign. So what if it would collapse the economy as long as we can blame the person holding the White House. I think it wasn't so much the railroads as their customers who held sway. Once they started telling congress what would happen, congress listened. Jeff
I also said folks were catastrophizing way back on the PTC thread.
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schlimmI also said folks were catastrophizing way back on the PTC thread.
Yes, but.....
One poster enhances his post count by doing so.
Norm
schlimm I also said folks were catastrophizing way back on the PTC thread.
Any time you have to depend on Congress to do something by a deadline date - all bets are off. Remember they 'shut down' the government itself on more than one occasion.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD schlimm I also said folks were catastrophizing way back on the PTC thread. Any time you have to depend on Congress to do something by a deadline date - all bets are off. Remember they 'shut down' the government itself on more than one occasion.
"Oh ye of little faith."
NKP guy I told you so. The news that Congress has passed and the President has signed the PTC extension proves me right: the federal government will not allow the railroads to shut down and disrupt the economy... There was never any reason to get one's undies in a knot on this point, as many here have.
The news that Congress has passed and the President has signed the PTC extension proves me right: the federal government will not allow the railroads to shut down and disrupt the economy...
There was never any reason to get one's undies in a knot on this point, as many here have.
schlimm BaltACD schlimm I also said folks were catastrophizing way back on the PTC thread. Any time you have to depend on Congress to do something by a deadline date - all bets are off. Remember they 'shut down' the government itself on more than one occasion. "Oh ye of little faith."
Correct! - I have NO FAITH in Congress.
Euclid NKP guy I told you so. The news that Congress has passed and the President has signed the PTC extension proves me right: the federal government will not allow the railroads to shut down and disrupt the economy... There was never any reason to get one's undies in a knot on this point, as many here have. It seems to me that the railroads had their “undies in a knot” over the deadline. Or are you suggesting that their worry a phony display that was just staged for public consumption?
Well... consider what would have happened if they didn't get their 'undies in a knot" and just let let the time expire and shut down because they would be breaking the law and subject to fines if they didn't.
Jan 1, 2016: Note to out Manufacturer customer; You may have noticed that we didn't deliver your chemicals today. Please send tanker trucks to our nearest rail yard to transload your product for over the road transport to your processing plant. Sincerely, Your RR Service.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Its not a case of getting panties in a knot or crying wolf. Its a case successful communication and lobbying.
The Congress asked the railroads what would happen, the railroads told them and then communicated the situation effectively, Congress acted in a timely fashoin and everything worked out.
The big communication points the railroads wanted to get across was there were negative consequences to inaction and that the deadline for those consequences was earlier than the deadline for the law.
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NKP, I and others were saying folks on here were the ones catastrophizing, not necessarily the railroads.
schlimm NKP, I and others were saying folks on here were the ones catastrophizing, not necessarily the railroads.
The railroads were certainly leading the way in the catastrophizing. Catastrophy was their point. And it worked. Someone needs to explain how Congress was blindsided by the amazing turnabout with a mandate that was meaningless.
How will the ECP brake mandate for oil trains be any different? It won't.
Euclid schlimm NKP, I and others were saying folks on here were the ones catastrophizing, not necessarily the railroads. The railroads were certainly leading the way in the catastrophizing. Catastrophy was their point. And it worked. Someone needs to explain how Congress was blindsided by the amazing turnabout with a mandate that was meaningless. How will the ECP brake mandate for oil trains be any different? It won't.
I would say posters on here, none of whom have any influence on the issue, were overreacting. The railroads were using catastrophic threats to get an extension for a deadline they had agreed to.
schlimmThe railroads were using catastrophic threats to get an extension for a deadline they had agreed to.
Railroads learn well from their employees. You want a rule (or law) changed? Follow it without fail.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Well if you would like an under-reaction, I conclude that the railroads would not have actually shut down as they threatened.
The only catastrophy is the revelation that the mandate had no teeth.
EuclidWell if you would like an under-reaction, I conclude that the railroads would not have actually shut down as they threatened.
Yes they would have. We even got operating bulletins (since cancelled) to that effect.
zugmann Euclid Well if you would like an under-reaction, I conclude that the railroads would not have actually shut down as they threatened. Yes they would have. We even got operating bulletins (since cancelled) to that effect.
Euclid Well if you would like an under-reaction, I conclude that the railroads would not have actually shut down as they threatened.
Johnny
Moot point. There won't be any more oil trains by then...
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
EuclidThe only catastrophe is the revelation that the mandate had no teeth.
Poppycock. The mandate had teeth or there wouldn't have been a need to extend the deadline.
As has been pointed out here numerous times by numerous people, it was found that the timeline was not realistic. Given the amount of lobbying that took place in trying to get the deadline extended, I would opine that the new deadline represents a more realistic goal, and one the industry can attain, or at least come close.
If you have your car in the shop, and the mechanic promises it'll be ready by COB tomorrow, but then updates you that the part he needs won't be in until the next day, does that make him a dishonest person? Or is he just dealing with reality, as you would also need to do?
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tree68 Euclid The only catastrophe is the revelation that the mandate had no teeth. Poppycock. The mandate had teeth or there wouldn't have been a need to extend the deadline. As has been pointed out here numerous times by numerous people, it was found that the timeline was not realistic.
Euclid The only catastrophe is the revelation that the mandate had no teeth.
As has been pointed out here numerous times by numerous people, it was found that the timeline was not realistic.
An amazing amount of doublespeak there.
In summary, what's your point, in twenty-five words or less?
And why are you so adamant to make it?
Hard to make out what the point of Euclid's post was. It seems to me the original mandate, when passed as a law, was at best a guess for a deadline. It would have been better to give the FRA the authority to modify it without an Act of Congress. It did serve the useful purpose of getting the process of PTC implementation underway. Would that have happened without the law? Impossible to know.
EuclidPerhaps I can make it clearer.
In less than 25,000 words? Doubtful.
If the mandate had no teeth, and still has no teeth after the extension, than why are the railroads still installing PTC? If they think that one extension would lead to extensions indefinitely, wouldn't they cut back their PTC efforts?
They have gotten an extension only because they have been making an effort to install PTC. An effort they could not meet in the deadline given. Had they just sat around thinking they could bluff the government into extending the deadline indefinitely, I'm sure they wouldn't have started putting big money into PTC. And I'm just as sure if the railroads had taken that attitude there would've been no extension granted.
jeffhergert If the mandate had no teeth, and still has no teeth after the extension, than why are the railroads still installing PTC? If they think that one extension would lead to extensions indefinitely, wouldn't they cut back their PTC efforts? They have gotten an extension only because they have been making an effort to install PTC. An effort they could not meet in the deadline given. Had they just sat around thinking they could bluff the government into extending the deadline indefinitely, I'm sure they wouldn't have started putting big money into PTC. And I'm just as sure if the railroads had taken that attitude there would've been no extension granted. Jeff
EuclidPTC will never reach a conclusion, but will forever be a work in progress.
As is everything in life.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
EuclidJeff, You say this: “They have gotten an extension only because they have been making an effort to install PTC.” I would say that is one way to look at it. The railroads have been making an effort and simply ran out of time. But the ultimate reason for the extension was that it was required to prevent the railroads from shutting down. There was no choice in the matter. Even if the railroads had not made a good effort to install PTC so far, they would have still gotten the extension because it was absolutely required by the threat of a shutdown. When I say that the mandate had no teeth because its deadline could not be enforced, what I do not know is when this became apparent to the railroads. They only began talking about it a couple months ago. Maybe most of the seven years so far, the railroads never considered that the not meeting the deadline would lead to an extension. So maybe they took the deadline seriously enough to be motivated to spend money on PTC. Or maybe the railroads would have just gone ahead and installed PTC because the government asked them to do it, and so there was no actual need for a deadline. But somewhere in the past, Congress must have concluded that the only way we would get PTC was if they mandated it. But whatever was thought about the mandate so far, going forward, all the players know that there is no deadline that will stand. So we will soon find out whether the railroads will make progress without a deadline. The underlying premise of a three year extension is that most of the work is done, and only three more years is needed. Yet, they appear to have gotten into the phase where new research and development is needed, and nobody can predict how long that will take. The cost overruns of the unpredictable R&D phase may require a lot more expenditure than what has been done over the last seven years. So it will be interesting to see how much progress is made going forward compared to what has been done so far. My guess is that with the uncertainty of progress during the R&D work, the rapidly changing state of the art, the feeding frenzy of developers and suppliers, and the lack of any meaningful deadline; PTC will never reach a conclusion, but will forever be a work in progress.
Although the statement, "How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?" was never stated by John Duns Scotus or Aquinas or any other of the Scholasticist theologians, the sentiment seems to apply here.
Once PTC reaches full implementation, the technology will continue to develop. New methods of completing the same tasks will be found, equipment will be improved, and new requirements come to light after the next Chatsworth.
You are fixated on the mandate having no teeth, yet it did have teeth, and still does. Discretion being the better part of valor, those who could enforce the deadline chose instead to react to the reality of the situation and move the target.
As has already been pointed out, work was begun - and continues - on the implementation of PTC.
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