wanswheel Excerpt from Reuters, Oct. 16 http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/16/us-usa-trains-safety-idUSKCN0SA2HV20151016 The U.S. House and Senate are "very close" to reaching bipartisan agreement to extend the Dec. 31 federal deadline for passenger and freight railroads to implement new safety technology for avoiding major accidents, an aide said on Friday.
Thanks for the update on the matter.
Johnny
Euclid For the prospect of breaking the PTC logjam with an executive order, I have no idea which side President Obama would come down on. Would he order a deadline extension in agreement with the railroad industry? Or would he hold their feet to the fire and order that the current deadline be enforced when it arrives?
As I have said a couple of times previously, the White House asked the Senate to create legislation to give DOT the ability to extend the deadline on a case by case basis, which the Senate has done and sent to the House.
MidlandMike Euclid For the prospect of breaking the PTC logjam with an executive order, I have no idea which side President Obama would come down on. Would he order a deadline extension in agreement with the railroad industry? Or would he hold their feet to the fire and order that the current deadline be enforced when it arrives? As I have said a couple of times previously, the White House asked the Senate to create legislation to give DOT the ability to extend the deadline on a case by case basis, which the Senate has done and sent to the House.
EuclidIs that what the three year extension of the Shuster bill will do?
Here's two stories that explain the Shuster bill pretty well.
From the American Journal of Transportation:
Shuster-DeFazio offer sensible PTC extension bill By: AJOT | Oct 01 2015 at 11:26 AM | Intermodal Washington, DC - Edward Wytkind, president of the Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO (TTD), issued the following statement on a bipartisan bill that extends the deadline for implementation of positive train control (PTC) technology: “TTD supports bipartisan legislation – introduced today by the leadership of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee – that extends the statutory deadline for railroads to implement Positive Train Control (PTC) technology on approximately 60,000 miles of track. While we have long called for implementation of this life-saving technology by the December 31st deadline as mandated by Congress in 2008, it has become increasingly clear that the vast majority of railroads will not meet this requirement. Unless Congress takes action to extend the deadline, a number of freight and passenger rail carriers have warned that they will shut down operations on January 1st rather than risk missing a legal deadline. “The legislation, authored by Rep. Bill Shuster (R-PA), the chairman of the committee, and Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR), the committee’s ranking member, provides a three-year extension for the railroads to complete implementation of PTC, with the limited availability of two additional extensions granted on a case-by-case basis. We believe this extension is sensible as it holds the railroads accountable to a hard deadline for implementing PTC and it forces them to demonstrate that extraordinary circumstances exist in any request for additional extensions. The Shuster-DeFazio bill is an improvement over the PTC provisions included in the Senate-passed surface transportation bill which requires initial activation, not implementation, of PTC systems at the end of a three-year extension. “As a PTC extension is enacted, Congress must ensure that commuter railroads receive the federal funding needed to implement this technology. The fact that PTC will be postponed for a minimum of three years on many freight and passenger railroads reinforces the need for Congress and federal regulators to advance long overdue rail safety reforms more broadly. PTC is an important technology that will save lives but there are other sensible measures that will make rail transportation safer across America.”
By: AJOT | Oct 01 2015 at 11:26 AM | Intermodal
Washington, DC - Edward Wytkind, president of the Transportation Trades Department, AFL-CIO (TTD), issued the following statement on a bipartisan bill that extends the deadline for implementation of positive train control (PTC) technology:
“TTD supports bipartisan legislation – introduced today by the leadership of the Transportation and Infrastructure Committee – that extends the statutory deadline for railroads to implement Positive Train Control (PTC) technology on approximately 60,000 miles of track. While we have long called for implementation of this life-saving technology by the December 31st deadline as mandated by Congress in 2008, it has become increasingly clear that the vast majority of railroads will not meet this requirement. Unless Congress takes action to extend the deadline, a number of freight and passenger rail carriers have warned that they will shut down operations on January 1st rather than risk missing a legal deadline.
“The legislation, authored by Rep. Bill Shuster (R-PA), the chairman of the committee, and Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR), the committee’s ranking member, provides a three-year extension for the railroads to complete implementation of PTC, with the limited availability of two additional extensions granted on a case-by-case basis. We believe this extension is sensible as it holds the railroads accountable to a hard deadline for implementing PTC and it forces them to demonstrate that extraordinary circumstances exist in any request for additional extensions. The Shuster-DeFazio bill is an improvement over the PTC provisions included in the Senate-passed surface transportation bill which requires initial activation, not implementation, of PTC systems at the end of a three-year extension.
“As a PTC extension is enacted, Congress must ensure that commuter railroads receive the federal funding needed to implement this technology. The fact that PTC will be postponed for a minimum of three years on many freight and passenger railroads reinforces the need for Congress and federal regulators to advance long overdue rail safety reforms more broadly. PTC is an important technology that will save lives but there are other sensible measures that will make rail transportation safer across America.”
This one is from Shuster's office:
Committee Leaders Introduce Positive Train Control Deadline Extension Washington, DC, Sep 30 | Jim Billimoria, Justin Harclerode (202) 225-9446 | 0 comments f t # e Transportation and Infrastructure Committee leaders today introduced bipartisan legislation to extend the deadline for U.S. railroads to implement Positive Train Control technology. Congress mandated that freight railroad lines carrying certain toxic materials, passenger railroads, and commuter railroads implement Positive Train Control technology by December 31, 2015. However, most freight and commuter railroads have reported that they will not be able to meet the deadline, and require more time to complete implementation. Recently, a Government Accountability Office study on the issue confirmed that railroads have faced a number of challenges in implementing the complex technology, and most will not be able to meet the deadline. “Completion of the Positive Train Control mandate by the end of the year is not achievable, and extending the deadline is essential to preventing significant disruptions of both passenger and freight rail service across the country,” saidTransportation and Infrastructure Committee Chairman Bill Shuster (R-PA), one of the sponsors of the Positive Train Control Enforcement and Implementation Act of 2015 (H.R. 3651). “Railroads must implement this important but complicated safety technology in a responsible manner, and we need to give them the necessary time to do so.” “This extension will ensure our nation’s railroads can continue to function and hold them accountable to implement necessary safety measures on a public timeline,” said Railroads, Pipelines, and Hazardous Materials Subcommittee Chairman Jeff Denham (R-CA), also a sponsor of the bill. “Passenger and freight railroads have stated they can’t meet the current deadline and will shut down later this year. This includes ACE in my district. We must protect communities across the country from a railroad shutdown, which would damage local economies nationwide.” Without an extension, freight railroads will be forced to suspend shipments of certain chemicals, including some used in treating drinking water and in fertilizers; commuter railroads will need to cease operations, significantly impacting commutes in major metropolitan regions; and all Amtrak service outside of portions of the Northeast Corridor will be suspended. The Federal Railroad Administration and the Government Accountability Office have also previously recommended extending the Positive Train Control deadline. The Positive Train Control Enforcement and Implementation Act of 2015 extends the deadline to fully implement the technology to the end of 2018, provides limited authority for the U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary to extend the deadline beyond 2018 if railroads demonstrate they are facing continued difficulties in completing the mandate, but have made every effort to install Positive Train Control as soon as possible, and requires railroads to complete progress reports on implementation. Click here to read the Positive Train Control Enforcement and Implementation Act of 2015.
Transportation and Infrastructure Committee leaders today introduced bipartisan legislation to extend the deadline for U.S. railroads to implement Positive Train Control technology.
Congress mandated that freight railroad lines carrying certain toxic materials, passenger railroads, and commuter railroads implement Positive Train Control technology by December 31, 2015. However, most freight and commuter railroads have reported that they will not be able to meet the deadline, and require more time to complete implementation. Recently, a Government Accountability Office study on the issue confirmed that railroads have faced a number of challenges in implementing the complex technology, and most will not be able to meet the deadline.
“Completion of the Positive Train Control mandate by the end of the year is not achievable, and extending the deadline is essential to preventing significant disruptions of both passenger and freight rail service across the country,” saidTransportation and Infrastructure Committee Chairman Bill Shuster (R-PA), one of the sponsors of the Positive Train Control Enforcement and Implementation Act of 2015 (H.R. 3651). “Railroads must implement this important but complicated safety technology in a responsible manner, and we need to give them the necessary time to do so.”
“This extension will ensure our nation’s railroads can continue to function and hold them accountable to implement necessary safety measures on a public timeline,” said Railroads, Pipelines, and Hazardous Materials Subcommittee Chairman Jeff Denham (R-CA), also a sponsor of the bill. “Passenger and freight railroads have stated they can’t meet the current deadline and will shut down later this year. This includes ACE in my district. We must protect communities across the country from a railroad shutdown, which would damage local economies nationwide.”
Without an extension, freight railroads will be forced to suspend shipments of certain chemicals, including some used in treating drinking water and in fertilizers; commuter railroads will need to cease operations, significantly impacting commutes in major metropolitan regions; and all Amtrak service outside of portions of the Northeast Corridor will be suspended.
The Federal Railroad Administration and the Government Accountability Office have also previously recommended extending the Positive Train Control deadline.
The Positive Train Control Enforcement and Implementation Act of 2015 extends the deadline to fully implement the technology to the end of 2018, provides limited authority for the U.S. Department of Transportation Secretary to extend the deadline beyond 2018 if railroads demonstrate they are facing continued difficulties in completing the mandate, but have made every effort to install Positive Train Control as soon as possible, and requires railroads to complete progress reports on implementation.
Click here to read the Positive Train Control Enforcement and Implementation Act of 2015.
I think these will answer your questions.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Septa hits a bump trying to get PTC to work. Silverliner 4s OK -5s not.
http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/in-transit/In-Transit-Begins.html
Although there’s been no news of a deal, lawmakers and aides in both chambers are said to be trying to negotiate compromise language for extending the deadline that could be added to the multiyear highway and transit bill House T&I is set to mark up on Thursday.
Meanwhile, over in the airline industry (following are just excerpts from a considerably longer and more complicated article). Note the similarities with railroad PTC, esp. in the 2nd paragraph quoted below.
"FAA to Let Airlines Seek to Delay Navigation Upgrades
Federal aviation regulators are ready to exempt numerous U.S. airlines from a requirement to make certain satellite-navigation upgrades by 2020, a delay that may further complicate air-traffic control modernization. . . .
Meanwhile, the agency is sticking with the 2020 deadline for a broader and more powerful technology, known as ADS-B Out, intended to provide more accurate and reliable speed, altitude and other position data to ground stations and controllers nationwide."
From the Wall Street Journal, by Andy Pasztor, updated Oct. 16, 2015 [not sure of original print edition date - not more than a day or two before this - PDN], at:
http://www.wsj.com/articles/faa-to-let-airlines-seek-to-delay-navigation-upgrades-1445017417
Not sure if this article is behind a 'paywall' or not, hence the above quotations.
Draw you own conclusions.
- Paul North.
Paul_D_North_Jr Meanwhile, over in the airline industry (following are just excerpts from a considerably longer and more complicated article). Note the similarities with railroad PTC, esp. in the 2nd paragraph quoted below. "FAA to Let Airlines Seek to Delay Navigation Upgrades The move partly reflects strategy to retain key airline support for more complex, expensive traffic-control improvements Federal aviation regulators are ready to exempt numerous U.S. airlines from a requirement to make certain satellite-navigation upgrades by 2020, a delay that may further complicate air-traffic control modernization. . . . Meanwhile, the agency is sticking with the 2020 deadline for a broader and more powerful technology, known as ADS-B Out, intended to provide more accurate and reliable speed, altitude and other position data to ground stations and controllers nationwide." From the Wall Street Journal, by Andy Pasztor, updated Oct. 16, 2015 [not sure of original print edition date - not more than a day or two before this - PDN], at: http://www.wsj.com/articles/faa-to-let-airlines-seek-to-delay-navigation-upgrades-1445017417 Not sure if this article is behind a 'paywall' or not, hence the above quotations. Draw you own conclusions. - Paul North.
Haven't the Feds been trying to 'upgrade' the Air Traffic Control system for the past 20 years or more - with a notable lack of success?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
wanswheel Excerpt from Politico, Oct. 20 Although there’s been no news of a deal, lawmakers and aides in both chambers are said to be trying to negotiate compromise language for extending the deadline that could be added to the multiyear highway and transit bill House T&I is set to mark up on Thursday.
So where is the need for compromise in the negotiation of compromise language?
BaltACDHaven't the Feds been trying to 'upgrade' the Air Traffic Control system for the past 20 years or more - with a notable lack of success?
The hurrier they go the behinder they get. Typical for the FAA. Like other federal agencies, they grossly underestimate costs and set impractical deadlines. Sound like they're in cahoots with the FRA? From the perspective of someone who made his living in avaition for the last thirty years it sounds plausable.
Norm
Norm48327 Typical for the FAA. Like other federal agencies, they grossly underestimate costs and set impractical deadlines. Sound like they're in cahoots with the FRA? From the perspective of someone who made his living in avaition for the last thirty years it sounds plausable.
blue streak 1 wrote above, plus his 1st 2 paragraphs:
"Guess that this is much of the same problem of programing PTC ?"
Geez, I had no idea that the FAA / ATC problems were so similar to the FRA / PTC ones.
Paul_D_North_Jr blue streak 1 wrote above, plus his 1st 2 paragraphs: "Guess that this is much of the same problem of programing PTC ?" Geez, I had no idea that the FAA / ATC problems were so similar to the FRA / PTC ones. - Paul North.
Never realized that creating something that didn't exist would ever miss a deadline date for industrywide implementation! [/sarcasm]
So this may become the solution, except they plan to attach it to the Transportation bill as opposed to stand alone legislation, so who knows?Lawmakers agree to extend automated train deadline by 3 years
The agreement calls for moving a Dec. 31 deadline for railroads to install an automated train navigation system known as Positive Train Control (PTC) to the end of 2018 at the earliest...Under the new agreement, railroads would have an extra three years to work on the automated train conversion. They will also have the option of requesting an extra two years to work on the installation if they submit plans for doing the work by Dec. 31, 2018. The requests would have to be approved by the Department of Transportation on a case-by-case basis.
Lawmakers look now for the surest path to the president’s desk for an extension of the positive train control deadline, since House and Senate negotiators just settled on compromise language palatable enough for both chambers. They’re so far undecided, though, on whether to hold out in hopes of moving the PTC fix within a multiyear highway and transit plan or to pass it before then with the short-term patch they’ll need to clear before transportation policy expires on Oct. 29. The variables to consider: how quickly they can actually get a multiyear infrastructure investment proposal through both chambers and whether naysayers will block a short-term policy extension if it includes PTC provisions.
What I find interesting is the Congress in 2008 decreed implementation by Dec. 31, 2015 - when their plans for upgrading the Air Traffic Control System was concieved 5 years earlier and has a anticipated completion date well beyond 2015.
wikipedia The Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen) is a new National Airspace System due for implementation across the United States in stages between 2012 and 2025.[1] NextGen proposes to transform America’s air traffic control system from a ground-based system to a satellite-based system. GPS technology will be used to shorten routes, save time and fuel, reduce traffic delays, increase capacity, and permit controllers to monitor and manage aircraft with greater safety margins.[2] Planes will be able to fly closer together, take more direct routes and avoid delays caused by airport “stacking” as planes wait for an open runway.[3] To implement this, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will undertake a wide-ranging transformation of the entire United States air transportation system. This transformation has the aim of reducing gridlock, both in the sky and at the airports. In 2003, the U.S. Congress established the Joint Planning and Development Office (JPDO) to plan and coordinate the development of the system.
The Next Generation Air Transportation System (NextGen) is a new National Airspace System due for implementation across the United States in stages between 2012 and 2025.[1] NextGen proposes to transform America’s air traffic control system from a ground-based system to a satellite-based system. GPS technology will be used to shorten routes, save time and fuel, reduce traffic delays, increase capacity, and permit controllers to monitor and manage aircraft with greater safety margins.[2] Planes will be able to fly closer together, take more direct routes and avoid delays caused by airport “stacking” as planes wait for an open runway.[3] To implement this, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) will undertake a wide-ranging transformation of the entire United States air transportation system. This transformation has the aim of reducing gridlock, both in the sky and at the airports. In 2003, the U.S. Congress established the Joint Planning and Development Office (JPDO) to plan and coordinate the development of the system.
BaltACDWhat I find interesting is the Congress in 2008 decreed implementation by Dec. 31, 2015 - when their plans for upgrading the Air Traffic Control System was concieved 5 years earlier and has a anticipated completion date well beyond 2015.
Methinks the primary difference is that the ATC plan wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to a single incident. I'm going to give Congress (and the feds) a little credit here and suggest that had the concept been presented as an upgrade to rail safety like the ATC plan undoubtedly was for flight, and all the variables were considered at the time of passage, the timeline would have been more realistic.
Progress
https://lipinski.house.gov/press-releases/reps-lipinski-quigley-and-newhouse-and-rail-industry-leaders-urge-immediate-action-to-extend-ptc-deadline/
tree68 BaltACD Methinks the primary difference is that the ATC plan wasn't a knee-jerk reaction to a single incident. I'm going to give Congress (and the feds) a little credit here and suggest that had the concept been presented as an upgrade to rail safety like the ATC plan undoubtedly was for flight, and all the variables were considered at the time of passage, the timeline would have been more realistic.
BaltACD
My gut feeling - Congress viewed ATC as being a technological nightmare. Railroads - my God they are so 19th Century! There can't be any technological challenges in what we are mandating in PTC. Jerking knees short circuit brain waves.
http://www.bizjournals.com/jacksonville/news/2015/10/21/csx-mulls-partial-operations-shutdown-as-federal.html?ana=yahoo
Another complication.
NS' release says they will not accept TIH and other items after Dec 1 on their system. As well they will not accept interchange traffic after Dec 1.
Does that mean that the traffic originating much earlier than Dec 1 by the other RRs sending traffic to NS will have to reject that traffic ?
Since all RRs seem to be holding to the DEC 1st deadline could it be traffic starting as early as Nov 1 that is connecting to NS / and maybe other RRs will be refused ? Any bets ?
Euclid Thanks Larry. That answers my questions. As I expected, the case by case extension does not apply to the basic three year extension. Instead, it applies to the additional extension of up to two years after the initial three year extension runs its course. The reason I wanted clarification is that I interpreted Midland Mike’s comment to mean that the basic three year extension would be on a case by case basis since that is the extension that would be the issue of Obama stepping in to defuse the shutdown crisis. Also, he made no distinction between the initial three year extension and the following two one year extensions. In any case, he was referring to what the Senate sent to the House, and not to Representative Shuster’s bill.
By the end of your post, you seem to have had all your questions answered, or answered them yourself, so I presume you had no further questions.
blue streak 1 Another complication. NS' release says they will not accept TIH and other items after Dec 1 on their system. As well they will not accept interchange traffic after Dec 1. Does that mean that the traffic originating much earlier than Dec 1 by the other RRs sending traffic to NS will have to reject that traffic ? Since all RRs seem to be holding to the DEC 1st deadline could it be traffic starting as early as Nov 1 that is connecting to NS / and maybe other RRs will be refused ? Any bets ?
If the rails need a two-month embargo, that would not speak well for their operation. Dec. 1 is Dec. 1.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
About the worst case from release to interchange would be about a week.
So, if you release your TIH shipment by Novemeber 20, it should get where it's going. The RR will still move it to destination after Dec 1, they just won't tender any new loads. They also won't take any empties back because those are TIH, too. All the cars will have to be off RR property by Jan 1 because of physical hain of custody requirements.
I wonder if there will be a mini-surge or TIH in the first part of November.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
MidlandMikeBy the end of your post, you seem to have had all your questions answered, or answered them yourself, so I presume you had no further questions.
Are you also expecting Hades to freeze over?
Norm48327 MidlandMike By the end of your post, you seem to have had all your questions answered, or answered them yourself, so I presume you had no further questions. Are you also expecting Hades to freeze over?
MidlandMike By the end of your post, you seem to have had all your questions answered, or answered them yourself, so I presume you had no further questions.
I checked the forcast for Norway. Hell might freeze over next week.
A couple of observations on my part about the original deadline. First, there were and are some systems (ARES on the BN, if you missed a post awhile back) here and overseas that are similar to PTC. Although to the layman they all might seem to be interchangeble (one size fits all) and ready to go "off the shelf," the reality is different. Even in apples to apples, a Red Delicious is not a Granny Smith. If someone (congress) thinks it's ready to go, it's easy to order it be done.
Second, concerning the difference in time lines between the next gen of ATC (air, not RR ATC) and PTC, the government is paying for one but not the other. It's really easy to tell someone else they have to have it by a certain date when you aren't going to pay for it.
Jeff
Well - Hell*, Michigan might freeze over in a couple months, too.
* N 42 26.070' W 83 59.166'
jeffhergertI checked the forecast for Norway. Hell might freeze over next week.
In case anyone misses the Believe-It-Or-Not reference (Mr. North did not):
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