Overmod <SNIP> No one but a somewhat nutty government would pay the kind of money involved just to accelerate a couple of LD trains and benefit a private company run by one of the richest men in the world. <SNIP>
<SNIP>
No one but a somewhat nutty government would pay the kind of money involved just to accelerate a couple of LD trains and benefit a private company run by one of the richest men in the world.
Overmod,
Huh? Our government, nutty? OH NO! Surely not!
My point is that the line COULD be a target. They have already spent X-millions of dollars on the line. Government money tends to be followed by MORE government money. They have already spent and are continuing to spend money on this line that supports a single daily round trip of an Amtrak train with each train carrying at best 200 passengers. Er, well, that was the case. Now it's more like three round trips per week.
I don't think that a fully sane president of any privately owned railroad company would spend money on this line.
Don't get me wrong. I am not predicting a full revival of this line. I am just saying that it COULD happen and the way things stand now it appears as things might be moving in that direction but, who knows?
But what I really wonder, if BNSF sees that the money is there, they might get more involved too. Will they? Stay tuned.
Regards,
Fred M. Cain
This has been discussed in other contexts in other threads.
Remember that even in pre-oil-embargo days, when the Fast Forties and the BSM were the competition to (handily, as I recall) beat, the Super C made no real money. As with the fast Alphabet Route TOFC trains... speed didn't sell. It still really doesn't for railroad freight -- reliable, precise delivery at least effective cost does.
There might be a case for rebuilding the 'cutoff' and finishing those last 37 miles; I believe there is a similar cutoff proposal for Glorieta mentioned that if 'also' implemented might make the route comparable to other 'transcons'. There are two issues, though:
You're talking more than the amortized cost of effective dual-mode cat over both Raton and Glorieta, which has much better 'optics' for Green New Dealers as well as operational advantages for the prospective traffic, such as it is.
Now if the government could, say, get open access to the line, say with long-term guaranteed tax credits to BNSF or even BH, and then get state buy-in on improving things and helping pay for operations, you might see public money get allocated to upgrades. Do not ask me to start pumping down the electron microscope to measure the probability of that yet...
I've often wondered just what BNSF would do if the states and the feds jumped in there and improved this line with all welded rail, PTC and lengthened CTC-controlled sidings? They might just look upon things differently.
That's kinda what happened with the Devil's Lake Line in North Dakota. At one time it was a possible candidate for abandonment with few if any trains using it other than Amtrak.
Then the states chipped in and improved the line and, I think, BNSF contributed some money as well, and now BNSF uses the line as a pop-off valve. A few years ago when oil traffic peaked they were using it a lot.
I know, I know, Raton Pass is most definitely NOT North Dakota and the grades are steep. But here's the thing: Those grades are only a problem for very heavy freight. Really HOT freight trains such as a lot of hot intermodal are not all that heavy. Santa Fe ran the Super C over this route and prior to the Santa Fe - BN merger they were also running a double stack train a few times per week.
The reason that the AT&SF ran most of their passenger trains on this route is that is was generally faster than the southern route.
The possibility of a big upgrade to this line is not completely out of the question. Joe Biden has been talking about BIG bucks for rail which in the end might or might not happen. Meanwhile the states and even the feds have already committed some funds.
Joe Biden is talking REALLY big but before we get too excited about that - I have watched this movie before where a president-elect has proposed spending a lot of money on the rail mode which, sadly, in the end never quite happened.
FMC
Overmod I wonder how many other high-speed improvements of this kind were seriously contemplated but never finished...
I wonder how many other high-speed improvements of this kind were seriously contemplated but never finished...
I imagine the massive waste of money blown on streamliners after WWII also contributed to RoW improvements taking a back seat..
DC M & T was not used/ Different Alignment. (good luck finding any evidence of it on the part constructed. What little there is in print on it called it crude.)
Someone tell me about the experimentation with broadcast power between Boise City and Farley in those last two years.
diningcarThe line southwest from Dodge City was opened for operation to Elkhart, KS (119.23 miles) on July 1, 1913. It was extended on through Boise City, OK to Felt, OK (58.82 miles) on January 1, 1925.
Perhaps I was conflaiting the Colmor Cuttoff out of Dodge City with the Dodge City, Montezuma & Trinidad Railway which was built about 1890 and abandoned within 5 years. The ROW was used in one of the preliminary surveys for the Cimarron/Colmor cuttoff, but I am not sure if the ROW was used in final construction. It is mentioned in the following link which has a detailed history of the Colmor Cutoff.
http://old.atsfrr.org/resources/burton/Colmor.htm
It also mentions that there was renewed interest in the Colmor Cutoff when the southern transcon was overwhelmed with Texas oil in the 20s.
Erik_MagWow. That would have given the Super Chief a distinct advantage over the City of LA.
diningcar A number generated in the study showed a 2 hr shorter WB and 2 hr 11 min shorter EB schedule could be attained if all the necessary additives were established.
A number generated in the study showed a 2 hr shorter WB and 2 hr 11 min shorter EB schedule could be attained if all the necessary additives were established.
Wow. That would have given the Super Chief a distinct advantage over the City of LA. OTOH, wouldn't make much difference when competing with air travel.
"Overmod"Did anyone calculate the prospective time reduction from finishing the Dodge City - Colmor cutoff? Interesting that they stopped work on it right about the time diesels were proving themselves in passenger service, and would have made the most of that faster trackage. I can see 'contributing the steel to the war effort' but was the bridge that much of a problem? I wonder how many other high-speed improvements of this kind were seriously contemplated but never finished...
The entire line from Dodge City would have to be upgraded (signals - new heavier rail - ballast and more items) to high speed passenger standards comparable to what existed on the line through La Junta before it could operated with trains like the Chief and Super Chief. Diesel servicing needed to be available with a crew change location -probably Boise City - and staffing for servicing etc.
Probably considered a lot of things. Then again the map drawers at ATSF (and other railroads) were full of broken dreams killed by budgets in the A&B accounting era with dwindling income.
Keep on wondering .....The Front Range rail bypass [Ft. Collins - Pueblo/Trinidad] keeps getting tragged out in various forms and iterations. As long as the rubber-tired centric CDOT bubbas are involved, that is doomed to never happen.
Did anyone calculate the prospective time reduction from finishing the Dodge City - Colmor cutoff?
Interesting that they stopped work on it right about the time diesels were proving themselves in passenger service, and would have made the most of that faster trackage. I can see 'contributing the steel to the war effort' but was the bridge that much of a problem?
And they started pulling back in 1942. (There is a claim that they were struggling with bridge piling bearing problems between Mt. Dora and Colmor mentioned earlier.) Santa Fe had run multiple exploratory surveys out there and filed more than one GLO filing map for lines that were never built.
SP (Dawson Ry & Az& CO Ry), CRIP (coming west from Liberal, crossing ATSF at Hugoton & Castaneda/Ramsey), SFRM&E, CB&Q, C&S/FW&D and others were all out there trying to get around and through the canyon country, but only General Dodge's FW&D was even mildly successful. To this day, nobody really lives out there except for the ranchers in the canyons and high desert.
The 4.03% grade (at Morley) is very real and very much there, right in the area where the coal tipple foundations remain. Was sent there more than once to prove where that was and why in my career with Chico's Kids. You can play with the numbers all you want, but you still have to get over it and have operating people who understand it and respect it.
As far as repositories, start with all the GLO filing maps that the (GLO/ Dept of the Interior) had now residing in RG 49 at Archives and follow-up with Kansas Historical's collection of stuff from the Topeka G.O.B. as the mergers played out.
The line southwest from Dodge City was opened for operation to Elkhart, KS (119.23 miles) on July 1, 1913. It was extended on through Boise City, OK to Felt, OK (58.82 miles) on January 1, 1925.
It was further extended from Felt, OK through Clayton and Mt Dora, NM to Farley, NM by November 15, 1931 (59.31 miles.) Total from Dodge City 239.36 miles.
SD60MAC9500Are there any expansive information sources avaible on the proposed Colmer Cutoff? Seems interesting Santa Fe would make a move when the Belen Cutoff was already built.
IIRC they started building the line that would become known as the Colmer Cutoff southwest from Dodge City not all that long after the Raton Pass line was built. It follows the "Mountain Cutoff" of the old Sante Fe trail. However, progress was in fits and starts, and got bogged-down in the panhandle of OK. In the meantime it was eclipsed by the Belen Cutoff, altough as mentioned, construction was restarted into NM before stoping again in the depression. They utilized some trackage rights on the C&S in NM. If they had continued those trackage rights a little further to the NW to Des Moines, NM, where they meet an AT&SF branch from Raton, they also would have had a Raton Pass bypass. While they might have saved the climb over the pass, there was probably no milage improvement. And there was still Glorietta Pass.
Santa Fe always had New Mexico as a destination which its naming implies. In 1873 they had reached the Colorado state line thus fulfilling the obligation which gave them a large land grant. The reason for building toward the Colorado line was because on the route chosen there was water for steam locomotives, plus timber for ties and bridges and minerals for revenue in Colorado; little of which were available along the various southwesterly routes examined
The Belen cutoff was built primarily to aid the freight business which had developed and was handicaped by the Raton Pass grades. Also the freight business between southern Texas and the west coast could now be moved expeditiously with the construction of a new line from Temple, TX connecting to the Belen cutoff at the location Texico, just east from Clovis.
But passenger business was still solicited and mostly utilized the Raton Pass route. A study was made to reduce the Raton Pass constraints with a route between Dodge City and Colmor, NM. If Completed this line would have been sixty six miles shorter than the line through La Junta and Raton Pass with maximum grades of one percent and most curves two degrees or less. Speeds could be 75-100 MPH over much of the cutoff route. Money constraints eventually halted this construction at Farley, NM in November 1931, the beginning of the great depression. Farley was about 37 miles from the completion location at Colmor with a significant bridge needed over the Canadian River.
diningcar Later Santa Fe did look to build the 'Colmor Cutoff' from Dodge City, KS to the location 'Colmor' located some 40 miles south of Raton. They did indeed build part of it but what is now the TRANSCON LINE east from Belen was already established with lesser grades and a much shorter connection to the Texas revenue which was established and growing
Later Santa Fe did look to build the 'Colmor Cutoff' from Dodge City, KS to the location 'Colmor' located some 40 miles south of Raton. They did indeed build part of it but what is now the TRANSCON LINE east from Belen was already established with lesser grades and a much shorter connection to the Texas revenue which was established and growing
Paul_D_North_JrAny curves in that stretch to be compensated for, or conversely, would add to the nominal gradient ?
Total curvature is about 803 degrees, which makes the average compensated grade 3.40%.
mudchickenBNSF got sold a bill of goods [FLYMAP] that a buncha non-surveyor engineers bought into* and they are now busy playing catch-up.)
Is this the German company ("Navigation in Perfektion") that can't even figure out how to get an English-language Web site to work?
All the bells and whistles an air operation (or, BNSF probably noted, drone/UAV operation) would want ... railroads on the ground that have to be precisely aligned, not so much...
You are in tangent where the 4.03% sits (for about 750' IIRC), the curves get tighter uphill going towards the tunnels.
(the problem with the grades published in the track chart is that they were 1878 original top of subrade, don't include vertical curves and don't show T/R profile. There are places up there where it's a serious climb in the ballast shoulder to get up to top of tie level. UP's PMV vehicles have good relative data on what's out there today from their GIS program. BNSF got sold a bill of goods [FLYMAP] that a buncha non-surveyor engineers bought into* and they are now busy playing catch-up.)
* "Hey! - I got coordinates" - Relative to what? Are they repeatable? Are they believable? (Precise? [NO] Accurate? [NO] Going to save BNSF big $$$$ in future design work and planning? )
timz mudchicken Max grade is 4.03% at Morley The chart says the 4.03% is 300 ft long. If we can believe the chart, the steepest half-mile on Raton doesn't average more than 3.5% actual.
The chart says the 4.03% is 300 ft long. If we can believe the chart, the steepest half-mile on Raton doesn't average more than 3.5% actual.
- Paul North.
CatFoodFlambe There are many stories about the completion of the Raton Pass route and the competition between the Rio Grande and the Santa Fe to secure the route that BNSF would gladly rip out today (if they could ensure no competitor would propose taking over the line.. . My question - with the 3% grades and other operational difficulties, I don't fully understand why either of the two roads didn't just swing a few dozen miles to the east and build "around" the Sangre De Christo Range and save all the elevation changes. Full disclosure - I've never been to the eastern CO/NM border area - the net up-and-down may have been just as expensive given the extra mileage involved.
There are many stories about the completion of the Raton Pass route and the competition between the Rio Grande and the Santa Fe to secure the route that BNSF would gladly rip out today (if they could ensure no competitor would propose taking over the line.. . My question - with the 3% grades and other operational difficulties, I don't fully understand why either of the two roads didn't just swing a few dozen miles to the east and build "around" the Sangre De Christo Range and save all the elevation changes. Full disclosure - I've never been to the eastern CO/NM border area - the net up-and-down may have been just as expensive given the extra mileage involved.
The mountains were a two edged sword. They were an operational headache, but also a source of revenue. In the Raton area this was coal, timber, and other traffic that traveled the Santa Fe Trail.
mudchickenMax grade is 4.03% at Morley
MidlandMike mudchicken ... (2) as late as the 1990's, there were proposals floated to put The Dawson Railway back in and bypass Glorietta Hill. (The Dawson RR also had its flaws ... fun in Mountain Country) ... Was this mainly for the York Canyon coal trains so that they could avoid Glorietta Pass? How would the route connect from Tucumcari to the rest of the ATSF?
mudchicken ... (2) as late as the 1990's, there were proposals floated to put The Dawson Railway back in and bypass Glorietta Hill. (The Dawson RR also had its flaws ... fun in Mountain Country) ...
...
(2) as late as the 1990's, there were proposals floated to put The Dawson Railway back in and bypass Glorietta Hill. (The Dawson RR also had its flaws ... fun in Mountain Country)
Was this mainly for the York Canyon coal trains so that they could avoid Glorietta Pass? How would the route connect from Tucumcari to the rest of the ATSF?
M-Mike, The Tucumcari SP-UP line crosses the Santa Fe-BNSF at Vaughn, NM and a connection could have been constructed, but as MC points out the suits just see lines on a map and believe it will work When they are shown the costs and the negative operational features they pretend they did not have the idea.
Everybody forgets about the EB challenge on Glorietta w/ heavy freight, such is the obsession w/ Raton. Passenger trains is one thing - freight is quite another.
(LC claimed the rights to Mongo many moons ago)
NorthWest Thanks for your comments and knowledge, MC. I am lost as to your point with 1, but I think I understand the rest. They're going to move everything to the Boise City Sub?
Thanks for your comments and knowledge, MC. I am lost as to your point with 1, but I think I understand the rest.
They're going to move everything to the Boise City Sub?
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