schlimm +2 Thanks for what would seem to be the final word on this event.
+2 Thanks for what would seem to be the final word on this event.
Final word you say? Challenge accepted.
wanswheel Excerpt from Napa Valley Register ... Johnson said, the train’s maître d’hotel told the group, “Your noise level is a little loud, and you have to tone it down so we don’t make others uncomfortable." ... “She said people were complaining and I said, ‘Who’s complaining?’ And she said, ‘Well, people’s faces are uncomfortable,'” said Johnson. “At that point, one passenger nearby said, 'Well, this is not a bar.' We reacted, 'Yes, it is a bar, a bar on wheels.'"
although these are Johnson's quotes of someone else's quotes, if they're accurate:
1. In my opinion noone in customer service should EVER use words like "you need to". This phrase does not defuse a problen, it angers the recipient and escalates the situation.
2. apparently the staff did not lie, at least one fellow passenger complained, presumably the person who said "this is not a bar"
3. the photo clearly shows drinking glasses hanging from the ceiling, that sure fits my definition of a bar.
wanswheel
and the clincher is this photo. That sure looks like a bar to me.
Patrick Boylan
Free yacht rides, 27' sailboat, zip code 19114 Delaware River, get great Delair bridge photos from the river. Send me a private message
gardendanceFinal word you say? Challenge accepted.
I think you misunderstood what I said. NVWT CEO Tony Giaccio's statement indicated that the train crew acted inappropriately, both on the train and afterwards in the FB post. I agree with the CEO, you and Wanswheel. The train is a bar and not the public library. The expectation should be that groups will be somewhat noisy.
“Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group.
“We were insensitive when we asked you to depart our train by marching you down the aisle past all the other passengers. While that was the safest route for disembarking, it showed a lack of sensitivity on our part that I did not fully conceive of until you explained the humiliation of the experience and how it impacted you and your fellow Book Club members.
“We also erred by placing an inaccurate post on our Facebook site that was not reflective of what actually occurred.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Like a bar it’s got a bouncer.
http://nvrpolice.com/nvrpolice.html
Enjoy’n the party?
http://online.ceb.com/calcases/C3/50C3d370.htm
EuclidUsing the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons
litigation has established time and again that bars have a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of it's patrons, and act proactively to assure unsafe conditions do not arise.
I'd say that if customers consuming alcohol in a bar become unruly and uncooperative, the "bar" has a duty to at minimum to quit serving intoxicating beverages to the offending patrons.
That may have gotten the message across in a way the offenders could appreciate?
Well, there's bars and there's bars. When I go to a bar, which isn't very often, what I want is place to enjoy a quiet beer or two with a friend or two. That being the case I don't go to sports bars, singles bars, music bars, biker bars, party bars, or what-have-you bars. I know what to expect in those places so I don't go there.
Seems to me that the Wine Train should figure out just what kind of venue it wants to be and post that on the reservation information so any potential patrons know what they're getting into and what's expected of them so there's no surprises.
I mean, none of us go to a fancy, high-toned restaurant and expect to shout to be heard, do we?
Just so there's no mistake, I wasn't on the Wine Train when this incident occured so I'm making no pretense at knowing what happened.
Convicted One Euclid Using the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons litigation has established time and again that bars have a responsibility to monitor the behaviour of it's patrons, and act proactively to assure unsafe conditions do not arise. I'd say that if customers consuming alcohol in a bar become unruly and uncooperative, the "bar" has a duty to at minimum to quit serving intoxicating beverages to the offending patrons. That may have gotten the message across in a way the offenders could appreciate?
Euclid Using the presumption that bars entitle unlimited loudness of patrons
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Sidingwhat unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from?
If the customer is growing so inebriated that they are defiant and uncooperative, who can say for sure where that will lead? You sure don't want one of the customers getting so tipsy that they crash while driving home, in which case that person's heirs will surely play the "you witnessed their growing impairment, yet continued to serve them?" card
I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location.
I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.
Convicted One Murphy Siding what unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from? If the customer is growing so inebriated that they are defiant and uncooperative, who can say for sure where that will lead? You sure don't want one of the customers getting so tipsy that they crash while driving home, in which case that person's heirs will surely play the "you witnessed their growing impairment, yet continued to serve them?" card
Murphy Siding what unsafe conditions were the train people supposed to protect the other riders from?
ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong.
How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."
schlimm ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong. How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group."
Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women.
To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken.
Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women?
I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III
Wow. Didn't see that coming. I did notice that about three days ago, the book club said that the wine train's apology was not accepted, and there was mention of a lawsuit. Maybe some others on the train will come forward and tell what really happened.
Murphy Siding schlimm ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong. How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group." Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader? How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear? To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error. That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue. Good for them.
Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader? How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear? To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error. That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue. Good for them.
No unlike some, I do not pretend to be able to devine what people really mean, as opposed to their clear public statements. You are simply imposing your own particular views without any actual information to the contrary, aka, a projection.
Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III
Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew.
I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?
schlimm Murphy Siding schlimm ChrisB1962 I can tell from some of the comments that few if any of you have actually ridden the Napa Valley Wine Train. I have. It is most definitely "not a bar" despite the name. It is a rolling upscale restaurant and boisterous behavior would be as out of place as in any similar establishment in a fixed location. I have no doubt the CEO is doing what needs to be done to combat the Internet firestorm the company is probably experiencing. If somebody gets fired, then maybe I'll think they did something wrong. How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Are you a mind reader? His statement is very clear: “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Somehow that vital information never made it to the appropriate channels and we failed to seat your group where you could enjoy yourself properly and alert our train’s staff that they should expect a particularly vibrant group." Well, using that logic, are you a mind reader? How do you know what the CEO is really doing? Is he speaking the truth, or simply reading from a script given to him by Singer Associates Inc. Public Affairs & Corporate Communications PB folks have told him people want to hear? To me, it appears that the company messed up and the boss (or owner?) apologized and is trying to make up for the company's error. That's the right thing to do, and they seem to be pursuing that avenue. Good for them. No unlike some, I do not pretend to be able to devine what people really mean, as opposed to their clear public statements. You are simply imposing your own particular views without any actual information to the contrary, aka, a projection.
schlimm Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew. I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime?
Murphy Siding Have you read anything that said anyone was growing so inebreiated that they were defiant and uncooperative?
The account I read stated that the staff asked the bookclub to "tone it down" three times, to no avail. Let's bear in mind that the train belongs to the NVWT, they have a right to try and control the environment. The fact that the bookclub defied and refused to cooperate with those requests serves as it's own testimony.
In an environment where intoxicating beverages are served, I believe that it's reasonable to conclude that uncooperative behavior defying requests made by staff, could be a result of intoxication.
I know of absolutely no precedent whatsoever, where a bar has been found in error for "cutting-off" suspect troublemakers. I know of no incidents where a bar was required to administer a blood alcohol test to back up their suspicion that a customer has had too much. But I invite you to provide examples if you can find them.
If you go back and read my comment, I offered that "cutting-off" the offending revelers would have been a superior solution to the events as they actually transpired.
"Here, have a cup of coffee on the house, your behavior is causing us to become concerned for your welfare". Try and sue me for that
Murphy Siding silly threads such as this one
I was simply saying I take the CEO's account word for word. I see no reason to 'interpret" it.
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edblysard schlimm Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew. I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime? Please cite the supporting documentation of the "folks" here who would support such actions based on the book club group's skin color.
Please cite the supporting documentation of the "folks" here who would support such actions based on the book club group's skin color.
Please do not put words in other's posts. I never said one word about skin color. But you did.
And "folks" was used in a question as to how many here might have done the same thing as that crew. So why would I need to cite any documentation? Or in your world, is that now a prereq for asking questions?
schlimmI never said one word about race
The subject is entirely without merit, absent any angle of race. It is inherently a matter of race.
If the group expelled for being too loud was all, or predominantly white, there would be no news significance to the story, and people would scoff at the mere suggestion that the group had in any way been wronged.
This is ONLY a matter of race. But not the one getting all the attention.
edblysard schlimm Paul3 Just a reminder, folks, that none of this would have made the news if the NVWT hadn't calulatedly lied on social media about the reason why these women were kicked off the train. The book club didn't go after the NVWT until after they saw the lies about the "verbal and physical abuse" of the train crew supposedly committed by these women. To be quite honest, I would have felt the same way. Ask me to leave a restaurant because I'm too loud? Okay, that's embarrassing and I wouldn't want to tell the newspapers about it, but okay. Lie to the world that I was kicked out because I verbally and physically abused the waitstaff when I hadn't? Heck no, not okay. Now I'm ticked. Now I want action taken. Again, why did the NVWT lie? What made this group of women different? So different that they went out of their way to make stuff up about their behavior? Why didn't other people on the same train who behaved in a similar fashion not get kicked off? Why did the NVWT call the St. Helena police, something they hadn't done "in memory"? (have to get that one right) Why did fellow passengers rip the NVWT for their behavior instead of cheering the removal of these particular women? I guess the train staff just didn't like booklovers?Paul A. Cutler III Sadly, Paul, you have to realize that there are many on here who probably would have done the same atrocious actions had they been part of the NVWT crew. I wonder how many folks here would find it acceptable to be told your group is too loud and then be marched through the length of the train to get off with the police waiting as though they had committed some crime? Your use of the word atrocious defines the issue, clarifies that it is indeed about race. If this had been a group of mid-level white businessmen, it would never have made the news, much less attracted attention here. It certainly would not have been “atrocious”, in fact, I imagine it may even have been lauded as the proper thing to do. You then suggest, obliquely, that some people here are raciest and would have gladly participated in escorting the group off the train. And yes, I have been part of such a group. Loud, obnoxious, rude and pretty much into our cups, we discovered if you all, as a group, get in the rear portion of a 727, and everyone runs forward at the same time; the nose of the aircraft will dip, a lot! And if you then run to the back, it rises. I thought the second officer was going to have a stroke or a heart attack! Delta refused to ever book our group again, and had airport police escort us off the plane when we landed. Totally deserved, and we understood why.
After you sobered up.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Perhaps if you actually read what the CEO had said, you would not make such a comment. Since when does "atrocious" define that the issue is about race? Nor did I say, whether directly or obliquely, that some people here are "raciest." You seem to read that into the remarks.
I also do not like loud, noisy, drunken groups. I avoid them. I seldom drink alcohol and do not go to bars. To each his own. However, you seem to be oblivious to a major point. The CEO said “Clearly, we knew in advance when we booked your party that you would be loud, fun-loving and boisterous—because you told us during the booking process that you wanted a place where your Club could enjoy each other’s company. Your story of drunks on an airplane really is not analogous.
What is atrocious is marching a group of people down the aisle of a party train (in business to serve alcohol), and forcing them off to exit to a police reception, whether they were a group of black book club women or Asian, male hedge fund managers or a white Gay Pride group.
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