Amtrak Wreck in Philadelphia

[seppburgh2]

One other item to think about is a potato gun.  Bearing Sea Gold next to last 2015 season showed a ‘war’ between three dredgers shooting each other with potato guns. We need to wait for more details to come out.  Given the location's lack of overhead structures (there is a walk-over bridge, but no one has mention if it was still open to the public), going to take ballistic experts to calculate the forces involved with the projectile(s).

 

[Euclid]

schlimm

 

Euclid

With that in mind, I am greatly surprised that Robert Sumwalt said he wants to downplay the theory that the train was struck by gunfire.  Why on earth would he publically announce anything that tends to downplay that theory before it is fully investigated by the FBI and others?  Why would he even personally jump to the conclusion that nothing struck the train?  To me, it sounds like he is downplaying this for some other reason besides the findings of the investigation, because the investigation is far from finished.      

Your answer from your own post is right in front of your eyes, in red, directly below:

Robert Sumwalt said on CBS's "I've seen the fracture pattern; it looks like something about the size of a grapefruit, if you will, and it did not even penetrate the entire windshield," Sumwalt said. 

 

 

I did read that part in read and carefully considered it before posting.  While this seems to be Sumwalt's evidence for concluding that gunfire was not involved, I am at a loss to understand why that evidence leads him to his conclusion. 

 

I don't know anything about Amtrak locomotive windshields.  If they are not bullet proof, and if it is true that bullets would pass though them, then I would reach the same conclusion that Sumwalt has, if the windshield damage does not include a hole through the glass.  But if they are bullet proof to some extent, I might expect to find a fracture pattern about the size of a grapefruit, and maybe no penetration through the glass.

 

The fact that the three impacts are close together, and appear nearly indentical strikes me as being hard to accomplish by throwing or dropping rocks, and easy to accomplish with gunfire if the glass could be damaged by gunfire.

 

Sumwalt's reasoning for discounting gunfire (quoted in red) actually struck me as a rather desparate reach in order to downplay the gunfire theory, escpecially considering that he did not have to say anything about it; and he has experts that will go far deeper into the characteristics of that glass damage than Sumwalt's thumbnail assessment.  And those experts have not yet reached their conclusion.

 

It seems to me that Sumwalt's early conclusion damages the credibility of the investigation. 

[Norm48327]

If you "thought" there may be a fox outside the henhouse would you panic the chickens?

[Euclid]

Norm48327

Mr. Sumwalt's reluctance to divulge certain details is a basic principal of investigation. If you want to catch a bad guy, don't spook him. That may be the reason he won't share at this time.

 

Yes, I agree that he should not divulge details during a sensitive investigation, however, my point was that he did divulge an important detail by publically saying that he wants to downplay the theory of gunfire hitting the train.  I consider that to be very odd.  Why downplay that?  He has the FBI investigating the possibility of gunfire, and they have not yet reached a conclusion.  So why would Sumwalt go out on a limb at this point by publically speculating that gunfire was not involved?

[CMStPnP]

Norm48327

Mr. Sumwalt's reluctance to divulge certain details is a basic principal of investigation. If you want to catch a bad guy, don't spook him. That may be the reason he won't share at this time.

That said, I'm still (impatiently) awaiting the results from the FBI.

Yeah, seriously, first time I heard the "wait until Monday" line from the FBI.

Whats up with that? 

[dlund]

narig01

 

 

dlund

Have they determined yet that he was not affected by alcohol or drugs?

 

 

 

 

A urine was collected at the hospital where Mr Bostian was treated for his injuries. The tested sample was free of any evidence of drugs or alcohol. 

 

 

 

narig01, thank you for the response.  I had assumed that was checked immediately but I was not sure.

 

Thanks!

 

[Norm48327]

Mr. Sumwalt's reluctance to divulge certain details is a basic principal of investigation. If you want to catch a bad guy, don't spook him. That may be the reason he won't share at this time.

That said, I'm still (impatiently) awaiting the results from the FBI.

[schlimm]

Boyd

Of course this could be more of the terrorist type activity that has been happening since 9/11. A thinking (evil) terrorist would attack us in ways we have not been attacked before or expect. 

 

 

Might as well speculate that 'the   devil made him do it' or some other highly improbable cause.

[schlimm]

Euclid

With that in mind, I am greatly surprised that Robert Sumwalt said he wants to downplay the theory that the train was struck by gunfire.  Why on earth would he publically announce anything that tends to downplay that theory before it is fully investigated by the FBI and others?  Why would he even personally jump to the conclusion that nothing struck the train?  To me, it sounds like he is downplaying this for some other reason besides the findings of the investigation, because the investigation is far from finished.      

Your answer from your own post is right in front of your eyes, in red, directly below:

Robert Sumwalt said on CBS's "I've seen the fracture pattern; it looks like something about the size of a grapefruit, if you will, and it did not even penetrate the entire windshield," Sumwalt said. 

[narig01]

dlund

Have they determined yet that he was not affected by alcohol or drugs?

 

A urine was collected at the hospital where Mr Bostian was treated for his injuries. The tested sample was free of any evidence of drugs or alcohol. 

[Boyd]

Of course this could be more of the terrorist type activity that has been happening since 9/11. A thinking (evil) terrorist would attack us in ways we have not been attacked before or expect. 

[Euclid]

The investigators are probably under some public pressure to tell us what happened to cause this crash.  There has already been an exceptional amount of blame being cast at high levels, such as the Mayor blaming the engineer, and all of the blaming about not maintaining the infrastructure.  I will bet that some of these blamers were stunned to suddenly see the theory advanced that vandals damaging the train with projectiles or gunfire might be to blame.

I would expect and hope that the investigation proceed with total honesty and competence, and not be cut short or compromised due to any agenda embedded in all the blaming that has gone on.  I would expect a thorough investigation that will prove or disprove this theory beyond a doubt. 

With that in mind, I am greatly surprised that Robert Sumwalt said he wants to downplay the theory that the train was struck by gunfire.  Why on earth would he publically announce anything that tends to downplay that theory before it is fully investigated by the FBI and others?  Why would he even personally jump to the conclusion that nothing struck the train?  To me, it sounds like he is downplaying this for some other reason besides the findings of the investigation, because the investigation is far from finished.      

Here is a quote:

National Transportation Safety Board member Robert Sumwalt said on CBS's "Face the Nation" program on Sunday that he wanted to "downplay" the idea that damage to the windshield might have come from someone firing a shot at the train shortly before it flew off the tracks, killing eight people and injuring more than 200 others.

"I've seen the fracture pattern; it looks like something about the size of a grapefruit, if you will, and it did not even penetrate the entire windshield," Sumwalt said.

http://bismarcktribune.com/business/conflicting-reports-on-object-striking-derailed-train-probed/article_eb238af9-d0f2-545d-a0ed-1243f5ac7c50.html

[BaltACD]

I can't speak to how Amtrak has configured their radio communications, and the recording of same.

On my carrier, whatever channel the Dispatcher logs into is recorded for the duration that the Dispatcher is logged into it.  Dispatcher consoles are configured to access the road channel and the dispatchers channel for their territories. 

Train crews must monitor the Road Channel.  When crews tone in the Dispatcher, they tone in on the Dispatcher's channel.  When the Dispatcher initiates at call to a train or other on track personnel, the call is made to the Road Channel, if the conversation will be involved the contacted party will be instructed to come to the Dispatchers channel, so a not to get walked over by all the other required communications that take place on the Road Channel.

Additionally there are designated Yard and MofW radio channels so that those communications don't get walked over on the Road channel.  The Dispatcher does not have access to these channels.

On my carrier trains are to announce observed signal indications, scheduled passenger station stops, requests to enter MofW work zones and inspections of passing trains over the road channel.  Additionally, with passenger trains the engineer will communicate the all these to the on board Conductor.  Defect Detectors announce their presence as well as a defect report for each passing train.  On a high volume, multiple track territory the radio traffic on the Road channel can become very congested.

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from LA Times

So far, officials have interviewed dispatchers and listened to dispatch tapes and have “heard no communication at all from the Amtrak engineer to the dispatch center to say that something had struck his train,” Sumwalt said as he made the rounds of Sunday-morning news programs. Nor did the engineer of a nearby commuter train that was struck recall any conversation between the crew of his train and Amtrak 188, he added.

[dlund]

Have they determined yet that he was not affected by alcohol or drugs?

[wanswheel]

Edited post superseded by newer info.

[daveklepper]

Do Amtrak electrics have deadman's control or just alerters?  I thought they had deadman's control, meaning either positive pressure on the throttle and/or foot pedal to prevent a full service application. 

If just alerters, then certainly sleep means no memory while asleep.  And instinctive reactions are possible while at sleep.

[FUSE-]

blue streak 1

WSJ dsyd Amtrak is to immedialy install signal indications for any  reductions of 20 MPH before restarting service.  Maybe reason not starting service until Tuesday ?

This is same order that MNRR got after its wreck.  Why was Amtrak not so ordered as well ?  FRA incompetence ?

 when did Amtrac take 2nd man out of cab 

FUSE-

 

[Euclid]

SealBook27,

The news reported that the engineer did get a concussion in the wreck, but I have not heard an explanation of exactly how.   The news has also reported that the engineer had treatment for a head injury, including several stitches.

It is interesting that you mention your experience of falling on ice.  The same thing happened to me last February.  I was carrying a pan of water in front of me with both hands.  So my hands and arms were not available to break a fall.  Going down an incline, I stepped onto a broad patch of the slipperiest ice imaginable.  Both feet flew out from under me, and I remember it like slow motion.   It was so sudden that it was as if I was intentionally doing a back flip.  I landed flat on my back.  My shoulders hit first, and it was not bad.  But then my head hit at about 100 mph on the solid ice.  It was the most horrendous impact imaginable.  Next thing I knew, I was having a dream. 

In discussion with the doctor, I was told to watch for memory loss since it is a frequent symptom of a concussion.  I seem to have good memory of everything up to the head impact, and everything since, except for the time lying on the ground.  It seems like that was only a few seconds of unconsciousness, but I have no way of knowing because I was unconscious.   It could have been 15 minutes on the ground for all I know. 

In the case of the Amtrak engineer, he does not remember anything from the point of leaving the last station to the point of crawling out of the wreck.  I do not know for sure, but I would assume that if a concussion can cause memory loss of events after the concussion, post-concussion experience could also include the loss of memory of events that happened before the concussion. 

Although falling asleep could also explain a lack of memory.  Is there any way to rule out sleep as the cause of the wreck?    

[daveklepper]

A number of years ago, I was sitting next to a window seat in a vehicle, and a private car drove into the side of the vehicle.  It was not at a grade crossing, but it was the kind of accident where a car does drive directly into the side of a train at a grade crossing.  The impact was just about where I was sitting, but it was not a low-floor vehicle, and the bottom of my seat was above the hood of the car.  I blacked out completely, awoke to find the side panel below the window bent inward and touching my knee which I found had no more then a redish bruise-mark but no blood.  Shatterred glass was all over the place, including on my cloths, but not on any exposed skin area, face, etc.  I think I was out for a minute or less, because the driver was just getting up, pushed open the front door, and people began filing out. I wasn't really injured, turned down the offer of an ambulance ride to a hospital for check-up, but still I had blacked out immediately on the impact.

I also recall a summer-camp incident, at a very  remote outpost we called "Phantom" reached by a hiking trail, about two miles from any road accessable by a wheeled vehicle, and long before the days of cell phones. I was 17, just between high-school and 1st year MIT.  We were sitting around a campfire, dressed in shorts, in a large very open tent.  Spagetti was cooking in a pot over the fire.  The camper who was the cook decided the spagetti was ready, and as he lifted the pot off the fire, the handle broke, and the boiling spagetti covered my bare lower legs.  The pain was so intense that I not only blacked out but my head hit the roof of the tent as a jumped up.  I did not come to until I was lying on my back on one of the canvass cots in use as a stretcher, going down the trail.  I learned the counselor with us probably saved my legs, and I did make a complete, if painful for a while, recovery, by opening the large butter jar packed in ice, using the butter to wipe off the spagetti and cool my legs at the same time.  The recovery involved about five days in the infirmary and a week on crutches.

And I still eat spagetti.  Italian food in general.  We seem to have it every third day at the Yeshiva.

[blue streak 1]

Here is an apperantly a well written outline of how persons behaved right after the wreck. An interesting item was Temple University had a student emergency response group that helped as well.

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/The_wreck_of_Train_No_188.html

 

 

[SealBook27]

Euclid wrote yesterday about the possibility of memory loss. From personal experience I can tell you that this is definitely a possibility. Fifteen years ago I fell on an icy parking lot, hitting the back of my head. To this very day I still cannot remember anything except the act of sitting up with a knot on the back of my head. I spent the next half hour in a mental fog trying to figure out how and where I fell. The only way I can be sure that someone didn't come up behind me and hit me is because my wallet wasn't missing. If the engineer ducked severely enough to hit his head somewhere in the cab, he could suffer a concussion just like mine.

[MrLynn]

wanswheel

Excerpt from NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/us/projectile-problem-goes-beyond-amtrak-train-and-philadelphia.html

. . . Karl Edler, a retired engineer who drove the line hundreds of times, said an impact could help explain the wreck. When a train pulls out of the North Philadelphia station, the engineer usually twists the throttle “up to notch eight, which is engineer-speak for wide open” he said.

It is about three miles to the curve where Amtrak 188 derailed.

“Usually you just leave the throttle open until you get up to 80 miles per hour, then put on the brake for the curve,” he said. “Seems reasonable that something happened right about that time he would have started slowing down that kept him from taking the throttle off. He was startled by the impact or whatever. And by the time he realized it, it was too late.”

This is starting to look like a plausible explanation of what happened.

/Mr Lynn

 

 

[schlimm]

Phoebe Vet

... or perhaps it was a particle beam weapon from a Chinese satelite. 

 

...or an indigestible bit of dinner.

[Phoebe Vet]

... or perhaps it was a particle beam weapon from a Chinese satelite. 

[wanswheel]

Excerpt from NY Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/17/us/projectile-problem-goes-beyond-amtrak-train-and-philadelphia.html

In 1905, a three-pound iron plumb bob hit a train carrying President Theodore Roosevelt in the stretch where Amtrak 188 apparently was hit, and “crashed through the stained-glass transom,” according to a New York Times article from the time. Railway officials at the time said stones often hit the train in the area, sometimes injuring passengers…

Karl Edler, a retired engineer who drove the line hundreds of times, said an impact could help explain the wreck. When a train pulls out of the North Philadelphia station, the engineer usually twists the throttle “up to notch eight, which is engineer-speak for wide open” he said.

It is about three miles to the curve where Amtrak 188 derailed.

“Usually you just leave the throttle open until you get up to 80 miles per hour, then put on the brake for the curve,” he said. “Seems reasonable that something happened right about that time he would have started slowing down that kept him from taking the throttle off. He was startled by the impact or whatever. And by the time he realized it, it was too late.”

[daveklepper]

Here or on the thread I started I proposed that the engineer's mind was fogged because of a spray due to a terrorist attack.  

Thinking it over, it couldl have just as easily resulted from a slow leak of a gas main, detected before an explosion, but still affecting thought processes, or perhaps a local chemical factory had a problem and the gas cloud was released.

[narig01]

How hard is it to throw multiple rocks at a vehicle traveling 60+mph? If rocks were thrown could the person throwing the rocks have gotten off three rocks in a short time period? Unless there were multiple individuals. Or firearms were used. If firearms(rifles, handguns) were used then they would leave at least trace amounts of their existance. Lead or copper trace marks on the richochet locations, or best of all an intact bullet And if this was gunfire the FBI is one of the best organizations at locating and analyzing this. Rgds IGN

[Electroliner 1935]

Clearly, Engine 601 was in a scenerio of being the irresitable force striking immovable objects. That it stopped in what appears to be a short distance and stay upright (my supposition) is amazing. I have a number of questions that perhaps someone can address. 

1. Throttle. Feeds electical lines that can be connected to other locomotives to either control them or vise versa. My understanding id that there is a selector switch that  put a locomotive in "Master" or "Slave" operation. So I would assume that 601 was in "Master" operation. Then the throttle connects to a processor that actuates relays or other modules that control the electrical propulsion system which I have never read about there being a failure similar to a stuck accelerator (Audi) event. Railroad safety has always been tought to me as "fail-safe" so any thoughts there?

2. Ergonomic. Does the engineer push the throttle forward to accelerate or pull the throttle back to accelerate. Could a reflecive move have caused an erronious operation of the throttle? Any thoughts there? 

Unrelated to this event but recalled because of it, when the D&H was running their PA-4's on Amtrak's Adirondack, I experienced a sensation I had never had before or since. It was south of Albany in the 90 mph section of the NYC line and the train was mking track speed. The coach I was in as we went around some curves felt like something was jolting it from the side. My analogy was a croquet ball being hit with a mallet, like something trying to force the car to turn. This was not a repetitive blow but it did recur multiple times. My mind kept thinking the wheels were trying to climb the rail but the sensation was of a force a from the side of the train, not a vertical force. Any thoughts.

[blue streak 1]

WSJ dsyd Amtrak is to immedialy install signal indications for any  reductions of 20 MPH before restarting service.  Maybe reason not starting service until Tuesday ?

This is same order that MNRR got after its wreck.  Why was Amtrak not so ordered as well ?  FRA incompetence ?