NorthWest To clarify: the theory is that the engineer opened the throttle to accelerate the train, and a projectile compromised the windshield. The engineer hit the floor with the throttle still open, allowing the train to reach 106 MPH before he returned to his seat and applied the emergency brakes. I am skeptical of this theory, and agree that it is best to wait for the NTSB report.
To clarify: the theory is that the engineer opened the throttle to accelerate the train, and a projectile compromised the windshield. The engineer hit the floor with the throttle still open, allowing the train to reach 106 MPH before he returned to his seat and applied the emergency brakes.
I am skeptical of this theory, and agree that it is best to wait for the NTSB report.
And miss all the fun of conjecturing based on hearsay?
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
schlimmSome people on here seem to be trying to find a cause, any cause, other than human error. Even if the windshield were struck by a rock, how would that explain or excuse the engineer's acceleration of the train from 70 to 106 before he then decided to apply the emergency brakes?
Agreed. I have to believe that rocks on the windshield are fairly common - maybe not every day, but often enough. Don't some of those NEC locomotives have grates over the windshields?
Most chemicals that might have been thrown on the locomotive would leave a residue. I'm sure that's been considered and dealt with.
I'm satisfied to wait for something from NTSB.
In the meantime, we have an engineer who, for reasons unknown (and he's not offering any), was running well over the speed limit, even without the 50 MPH curve. Pending the ruling out of any medical problems, it's pretty much on him.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Some people on here seem to be trying to find a cause, any cause, other than human error. Even if the windshield were struck by a rock, how would that explain or excuse the engineer's acceleration of the train from 70 to 106 [from BALTACD: "NTSB stating the train was running at 70 MPH until about 1 minute before the crash - in that minute the train accelerated from 70 to 106 before the emergency brake was applied" ] before he then decided to apply the emergency brakes?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Not a completely crazy suggestion. Used to be a Rohm & Haas chemical plant in Bridesburg (last portions closed in 1999) - about 1.5 miles due east of the wreck site. It was notorious for allowing employees to breathe in the toxic fumes that were released from the open vats where a by-products was formed - bis-chloromethyl ether (BCME), apparently a carcinogen. See:
http://articles.philly.com/1995-05-22/news/25674902_1_rohm-and-haas-chemical-buildings
http://articles.philly.com/1986-05-31/news/26050099_1_rohm-haas-cancer-claims-class-action-suit
Then there's the 'urban legend' about casinos pumping oxygen into the gaming floor:
http://www.businesspundit.com/10-most-sinister-ways-casinos-keep-you-gambling/
http://hoaxes.org/weblog/comments/do_casinos_pump_in_oxygen
- Paul North.
"If someone is found to have done same isn't sabatoge of a RR a capital federal offense ? Won't take much of a reward to find culprit."
Last I knew, Train Wrecking was a Federal Offense and also one of the crimes subject to the Death penalty. I also agree that a decent reward would rapidly lead to an arrest--unless its one perpetrator who is able to keep his mouth shut [normally unlikely about the mouth shut part, especially in this age we live in].
[/quote]
daveklepper I am with you, KP, and the spray was released by the same terrorists that produced the "projectiles" that damaged the SEPTA train windshield.
daveklepper KP. If I were in the USA right now, I would call my nearest FBI office with the suggestion that the scrape the exterior of the locomotive to see if there is chemical residue from the spray. There should be. The terrorists' plot was this. They expected that the SEPTA train would stop with the cab windshield shattered. Then the spray wouldl prevent the engineer from stoppinig the following train, which would plow into the stopped SEPTA train. But the engineer of the SEPTA train did not stop until the next station where passengers could detrain. He avoided a possibly much greater tragedy. KP, please call the FBI with your idea and experience.
daveklepper (5-14 / 5-15):
I personally think calling the FBI would be a waste of time, and seriously doubt any residue would be present in any evident quantity to be valuable to investigators.
Nevertheless, if you feel my awareness of incidents in the past and my experience in auto purchases would be valuable to the FBI, you might email them about this matter. If they think my awareness and experience might be valuable to them in some small way, I would be happy to talk to them. My email is kpharrier@gmail.com.
Take care,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
I can't see one in the photo of the locomotive but would think there is a forward facing camera. Using that and data from the event recorder they should be able to plot exactly when and where on the track the windshield was shattered and correlate the throttle position at that time. If the throttle was increased a second or so after the window was shattered it would be enlightening.
I've had rocks break the windshield in my truck and the reflex to duck is a natural response when I see one coming.
Norm
MikeF90 In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side.
In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side.
Had noticed same. This is going to make the PHL mayor eat crow.
With the FBI now called in a lot of politicians may have to take back some statements.
It is almost imossible for anyone who thinks he / she is taking gunfire or rocks not to duck and cover even though told windshield can take it. If something was aimed at the windshield we will never take fault for the engineer not controlling his speed.
If someone is found to have done same isn't sabatoge of a RR a capital federal offense ? Won't take much of a reward to find culprit.
“He recalls ringing the train bell as he went through North Philadelphia Station, as required,” Mr. Sumwalt said. “He has no recollection of anything past that.”
The assistant conductor, however, who was working in the cafe car, heard the engineer talking to his counterpart on a SEPTA regional line, who said his train had been “hit by a rock or shot at,” according to Mr. Sumwalt. The assistant conductor said she thought she heard the Amtrak engineer, Brandon Bostian, reply that his train had also been struck.
I'm not sure I've seen all the relevant photos, so keep that in mind as you read this. The closeups I've seen show windshield damage that is not like the damage caused by bullets. In my experience, bullets tend to make a neat, regular, circular pattern. I'm guessing these were caused by something larger and probably more irregular in shape. Maybe a projectile; maybe some damage incurred in the wreck. I don't know which.
Tom
The NTSB has called in the FBI to investigate the windshield:
Investigators Examining Whether Amtrak Train Was Struck By Object MAY 15, 2015 6:38 PM ET KRISHNADEV CALAMUR Twitter One of the assistant conductors on the Amtrak train that derailed Tuesday, killing eight people and injuring more than 200, has told investigators that just prior to the crash she heard a radio transmission from the engineer that the locomotive had been struck, the National Transportation Safety Board said Friday. "Our investigation has not independently confirmed this information, but we have seen damage to the left-hand lower portion of the Amtrak windshield that we have asked the FBI to come in and look at for us," NTSB board member Robert Sumwalt said. The FBI planned to conduct the examination Friday night. . .
One of the assistant conductors on the Amtrak train that derailed Tuesday, killing eight people and injuring more than 200, has told investigators that just prior to the crash she heard a radio transmission from the engineer that the locomotive had been struck, the National Transportation Safety Board said Friday.
"Our investigation has not independently confirmed this information, but we have seen damage to the left-hand lower portion of the Amtrak windshield that we have asked the FBI to come in and look at for us," NTSB board member Robert Sumwalt said.
The FBI planned to conduct the examination Friday night. . .
More here: http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2015/05/15/407103927/investigators-examining-whether-amtrak-train-was-struck-by-object?utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=npr&utm_medium=social&utm_term=nprnews
/Mr Lynn
I am curious on the European Throttle design Amtrak is moving to on these passenger locomotives. Why don't they have a button on the throttle assembly grip that needs to be pushed and move the throttle up in notches like a frieght train? Or do they?
Whats to prevent an operator from accidently bumping the throttle forwards without realizing it? Or worse, what if the Engineer collapses forwards onto the desktop with a major health issue?
MrLynn If the engineer had been hit with a projectile, between the state of the windshield and the condition of his head, it should be pretty obvious to the NTSB investigators. I imagine that they would make that known quickly, as it would exonerate the engineer. /Mr Lynn
If the engineer had been hit with a projectile, between the state of the windshield and the condition of his head, it should be pretty obvious to the NTSB investigators. I imagine that they would make that known quickly, as it would exonerate the engineer.
Such would remove the instant referral to PTC and EPC, and make a lousy sound bite anyway.
23 17 46 11
oltmannd MikeF90 Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic .... There has been mention here and on The Other forum about 'projectiles' possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact 'craters' from small diameter, roundish objects. http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be 'distracting'. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen. In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side. Looks to me like the locomotive grazed the cat pole. Also, look at all the mud on the front. It plowed the balast and ran into the debris field it created. Gunshots? Throwing rocks at trains has a LOONG tradition on the NEC. Why to you think Metroliners and Amfleet have such narrow windows? Anyone else remember when rock shields on the locomotives were the norm?
MikeF90 Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic .... There has been mention here and on The Other forum about 'projectiles' possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact 'craters' from small diameter, roundish objects. http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be 'distracting'. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen. In case you hadn't noticed, the local Philly media has shied away from references to gunfire, mustn't offend the fine residents of the North side.
Wow, all this talk about suspicious chemicals in the loco cab. IMO some posters need to back off on the medical weed, air out their home longer after the fumigation treatment or just stop watching the Faux News Channel. Now back to the serious subject of this topic ....
There has been mention here and on The Other forum about 'projectiles' possibly impacting the cab. I discovered this high resolution photo and it clearly shows what appear to be impact 'craters' from small diameter, roundish objects.
http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg
The damage to the very left pane could be explained by post-derailment impact, but I hope the NTSB finds a plausible cause of those craters. If they occurred pre-derailment, that would definitely be 'distracting'. It would take a lot of energy to make divits in that thick, no-ghetto-grille-required, windscreen.
Looks to me like the locomotive grazed the cat pole. Also, look at all the mud on the front. It plowed the balast and ran into the debris field it created.
Gunshots? Throwing rocks at trains has a LOONG tradition on the NEC. Why to you think Metroliners and Amfleet have such narrow windows? Anyone else remember when rock shields on the locomotives were the norm?
When you 'blow up' the picture to it's maximum resolution there appears to be 3 impacts to the engineer's side of the windshield that don't appear to be related to crash damage. There are also 2 impacts to the firemans side windshield that also appear to be from rocks or something similar. There is no doubt in my mind that the engine was 'rocked' somewhere - the results of the NTSB investigation will show if that was a contributing factor in the derailment.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
I'm not going to say much here, certainly not about hallucinogens or gunfire. But there is a wreck with some eerie similarities -- not the one in 1943, the one in 1940.
Seems to me there were very similar train dynamics at Gulf Curve, where sharp increase in locomotive resistance caused run-in from the train. The point of 'buckling' in the train appears to have been between the rear of the locomotive and that first car, and I believe it was severe enough to have the engine swap ends by the time it came to rest. Would moving the throttle sharply 'off' on an ACS-64 put it into high dynamic/regenerative braking, before the train brakes had started to take hold? Is the behavior different from an AEM-7?
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
Phoebe Vet Ockham's razor
Ockham's razor
+1 Sleepy engineer
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Observation:
The MNRR derailment due to excess speed caused MNRR to fix its signal system so overspeeds into slower speed locations would cause pentaly brake applications.
The MTA had LIRR to do the same thing to LIRR locations.
Question:
Why did Amtrak not learn from the MNRR derailment around its curve?.
Are there any other agencies that did the same as MNRR ? Do know that LAX Metrolink added ATS to its own lines after Chatsworth although that did not solve the ATC lack completely.
schlimm Terrorists with chemicals? Delinquents shooting? Seems to me far more likely that the engineer simply made an error of negligence. Terrorists, delinquents, negligence, nodding off...all arguments for the return to two man crews in the cab.
Terrorists with chemicals? Delinquents shooting? Seems to me far more likely that the engineer simply made an error of negligence.
Terrorists, delinquents, negligence, nodding off...all arguments for the return to two man crews in the cab.
daveklepper Terrorists don't know lots of things. But you are correct. perhaps if the SEPTA train had stopped, the tragedy would have been averted by an automatic emergency brrake application as the train passed a stop signal. But perhaps the SEPTA engineer wanted to avoid being a target. In any case, i think the area and the locomotive should be analyzed for residue of a chemical spray.
Terrorists don't know lots of things. But you are correct. perhaps if the SEPTA train had stopped, the tragedy would have been averted by an automatic emergency brrake application as the train passed a stop signal. But perhaps the SEPTA engineer wanted to avoid being a target. In any case, i think the area and the locomotive should be analyzed for residue of a chemical spray.
This is a scenario that has never actually occured anywhere in the world and belongs in the pages of a suspense novel...
Don't you think if the various radical groups out there have managed to weaponize hallucinogenic or "knockout" gasses/sprays you would have seen such an attack already in the part of the world you live in?
The only time any type of anesthetic chemical was actually employed in gaseous form to incapacitate a bunch of people was by Russian security forces inside a theatre taken over by a Chechan group (i.e the enclosed space within a building) and the chemical not only rendered the hostage takers unconscious but killed a number of hostages.
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
While I am unsure about the "chemical" theory, seppburgh2 and the "projectile" point may just be on to something... I've wondered about that myself ever since the report of the other two trains being "shot at" or hit by something.... And it is interesting that Brandon can't remember what happened, if he had been hit by another projectile and rendered unconscious, that would account for the memory loss, and possibly the last minute rapid acceleration. (Hand on the throttle, slumping forward, which just happens to be the direction he would have to push the throttle on some other Amtrak electrics.) It also could explain the last second emergency application of the brakes, without his remembering it, as he may have been starting to come back around, and on instinct, hit the emergency stop button, and then began with the horn to signal the rest of the crew that there was an issue. That could have been purely instinctive reaction of a semi-conscious engineer, so he would not remember that.
Ricky W.
HO scale Proto-freelancer.
My Railroad rules:
1: It's my railroad, my rules.
2: It's for having fun and enjoyment.
3: Any objections, consult above rules.
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
Note also the possible bullet strikes to 601's front window: http://media4.s-nbcnews.com/i/newscms/2015_20/1021861/amtrak-train-ejo-051315_fa571da5d106d530bceb6900e1dce761.jpg
wanswheel I don’t see a murderer. I don’t see a copycat of the German pilot. He dozed off. Horrible tragedy.
+1 It appears this guy was a "true believer", like many of us.
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