And Yet Another Oil Train Derailment

[Euclid]

williamsb,

Thanks for posting the report.

I sure would like to see a detailed explanation of why this is.  From the report:

 

“Petroleum crude oil unit trains transporting heavily-loaded tank cars will tend to impart higher than usual forces to the track infrastructure during their operation.”

 

What is meant by “heavily-loaded”?

[williamsb]

The Transportation Safety Board of Canada (www.tsb.gc.ca) released its initial report on the second Gogama accident.

Some things the report said are:

accident at mile 88.7 Ruel Sub.

train going 43 mph (old tt I have says zone speed 50 mph mile 74.3-98.1, permanent slow order 45 mph 89.1 - 93.4 within it)

94 cars, 6089 feet, 14,355 tons.

 

The report says there is a" section of broken rail within a plug rail joint that was installed two days before - the plug rail was put in place as a repair for an in-service thermite weld failure"

It also says ".... oil unit trains transporting heavily-loaded tank cars will tend to impact higher than usual forces to the track infrastructure during their operation. These higher forces expose any weaknesses that may be present in the track structure, making the track more suseptable to failure."

This is class 4 track - speed up 60 mph frt 80 mph pass.

Temperature was -10. The previous accident reportedly had a windchill of -45

I believe such extremes cause broken rails and flat spots on cars make it worse in such temps.

CN has put a slow order of 35 mph from Winnipeg to Capreol for trains with 20 or more cars of oil.

The bridge is replaced and the track is open.

[BaltACD]

Tank truck on fire -

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/03/11/tanker-fire-shuts-down-i-94-michigan/70149392/

[tree68]

As noted in the "What Causes a Derailment" thread, KP Harrier reports a derailment just occurred that didn't involve an oil train (although some tank cars are in evidence).  

Most notable is that until KP posted it here on the forum, none (or very few) of us knew about it.  John Q. Public, local resident of that area, probably didn't know about unless it affected his travels or he saw an item about it in the local media.

By the looks of it, this was no minor "dropped a wheel on the ballast" incident.

[Euclid]

That is the basic question that needs an answer.  I would state it thus:

Does the frequency of oil train derailments that have occurred since the Lac Megantic wreck exceed the frequency of derailments of other types of freight trains during that same period?

On the face of it, it seems that oil trains are derailing more frequently, but that might be due to the fact that every oil train derailment makes the national news. 

If the oil trains are derailing more frequently, then that raises the very provocative and unanswered question as to why that would be the case. 

But I suspect that the frequency of oil train derailments is not greater than the frequency of derailments of all types of freight trains. 

I also assume that there have not yet been enough oil train derailments to reach that statistical conclusion.

[Anonymous]

tree68

 

samfp1943

 I would hate to pull the " Conspiracy Alarm" at this point.  Not knowing the statistics, or being able to understand their implications. I would leave that up to the 'Professionals' to make that call.

Statistical anomolies do occur....

One must also consider that had these wrecks involved unremarkable merchadise trains, they wouldn't have been newsworthy, except locally. 

Do tank cars have a higher rate of derailment than other freight cars, i.e. box, stack, hopper, etc.?

[Euclid]

dakotafred

I wouldn't be afraid to raise the POSSIBILITY of sabotage at the first shred of evidence. After all, the kind of people who "spike" lumbering timber are CERTAIN that oil trains contribute to irreversible climate damage.

I await the evidence. But let's not be innocents, either.

 

As I mentioned, I cannot see any way that saboteurs could cause a mid-train derailment without leaving evidence.  And I cannot imagine that the investigators would not find such evidence.  If evidence of sabotage is found, it sure will change the narrative.  Ironically, it will reduce the growing public relations problem surrounding the safety of oil trains.  And of course, this would constitute a third motive for sabotage. 

[dakotafred]

I wouldn't be afraid to raise the POSSIBILITY of sabotage at the first shred of evidence. After all, the kind of people who "spike" lumbering timber are CERTAIN that oil trains contribute to irreversible climate damage.

I await the evidence. But let's not be innocents, either.

[Euclid]

Norm48327

 

ROBERT WILLISON

Sabotage really?  A little over the top. In most cases  someone takes credit for the dirty deed.

 

 

 

 

Not if they can further their agenda without being named suspects. Sometimes it is better to remain covertly anonymous than to advertise your mission. The media is doing a good job of publicizing the damages. Why would any intelligent saboteur out himself.

 

I agree that sabotage cannot be ruled out simply because nobody claims credit.  If it were sabotage by the anti-oil movement, they would not want it to be known to be sabotage.  So they would not claim credit.  If the incident were known to have been caused by sabotage, it would completely defeat the purpose.  The purpose of the anti-oil activists would be to heighten the worry that oil trains are a fundamental threat to public safety.  To convey that message, oil trains must be seen as derailing without the help of sabotage.

So I don’t think you can rule out sabotage based on the fact that nobody claims credit.  However, there is another problem that I think rules out sabotage.  That would be the difficulty of creating a mid-train derailment without leaving any evidence. 

[Norm48327]

I'm not really into conspiracy theories. Was just pointing out that a smart crook does not tell the cops he just robbed a bank.

[oltmannd]

ricktrains4824

While I agree there have been "frequent" derailments of late, I also do not, as of yet, feel that something more than just "accidents" occurred here.

Agree, but I'm starting to get that SDP40F feeling....

[ricktrains4824]

While I agree there have been "frequent" derailments of late, I also do not, as of yet, feel that something more than just "accidents" occurred here. Let's see what the investigators say caused all of these derailments before we jump that bridge and go straight to the sabotage card.

However, most of us know that these accidents will be cited as the reason that the fuel prices are going back up....... 

[ROBERT WILLISON]

Sorry not drinking the kool aid. While I am sure every aspect is investigated, I believe the issue goes a bit deeper

I am also sorry I don't know the characteristics of an intelligent sabatour.

[Norm48327]

ROBERT WILLISON

Sabotage really?  A little over the top. In most cases  someone takes credit for the dirty deed.

 

Not if they can further their agenda without being named suspects. Sometimes it is better to remain covertly anonymous than to advertise your mission. The media is doing a good job of publicizing the damages. Why would any intelligent saboteur out himself.

[schlimm]

The Day autobiographical stories were set in 1883, written and published in 1935, the play 1939, the movie 1947, a TV series 1953-55.

[ROBERT WILLISON]

Sabotage really?  A little over the top. In most cases  someone takes credit for the dirty deed.

[dakotafred]

Agree with all above about wait-and-see on the sabotage angle. If there is any evidence of monkey business whatsoever, I would expect the railroads to sing out loud and long.

[wanswheel]

Life With Father on one of Chauncey Depew's birthdays (perhaps April 23).

https://books.google.com/books?id=7bdvut8WP7cC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=%22damn+another+wreck+on+the+new+haven%22&source=bl&ots=SrnHSLkH7O&sig=27CVvBN4nuCwAjfIt31njZQp9_M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=n4n-VKGlIIXCggSL1IPQBQ&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22damn%20another%20wreck%20on%20the%20new%20haven%22&f=false

[lenzfamily]

samfp1943

If it were not for 'Bad Liuck..."  CN is having a run of it.  The above Post is in the same area as last month's incident..In fact: That line was apparently opened on the 18th of Feb after repairs were made from the Feb incident.   FTL:"...CN Rail says its crews completed repairs to the tracks near Gogama, Ont. Tuesday night and re-opened the rail line to train traffic about 10:30 p.m.

Hi All

Something about this report twigged my memory.

As others have said, this is the third derailment in three months on the CN Ruel Sub. There have been other track failures. In March 2011 a significant trackbed failure occurred in the general area. It is shown occurring on a Youtube video taken by CN MOW forces on site. I just looked at it again. It appears to be a substantial failure of the subgrade as the video shows. I can't recall the cause with certainty but plugged culverts among other things somehow sticks in my mind. (There was no TSB investigation or other external information I could find regarding this occurrance.)

For those not familiar with this area it is on the Canadian Shield and is best described at times as a bog. A very extensive bog covering much of that part of Ontario. As a teenager I used to do a lot of canoe tripping (as a summer job) not too far from there (Lady Evelyn, Smoothwater Lakes area) There's a lot of groundwater there at the best of times, small lakes/beaverponds etc are everywhere as well. It is near the Mattagami River. The ground was pretty soggy then and  probably now isn't any better. What we used to call 'moose pasture'. It wasn't easy country to canoe trip in, I can only imagine what it is like to run through with a railway.

Psgr track speed is 60 mph, freight is 50 mph according to my trackside guide.

I can well imagine track forces having a very difficult time maintaining track and structures through here.

Winter hasn't been kind this year either and I can imagine all kinds of problems for MOW. Plugged/frozen culverts etc.... 

I wonder if there is significant trouble with the track in the area given local weather conditions, the existing ground conditions and potential drainage issues which I'm quite sure would be a big deal here at the best of times.

IIRC CP had a significant derailment in the general area (Wanup, Ontario) last year due to a bridge failure. Same kind of topography too....(I checked TSB investigation report for this derailment. I was in error. It was bearing failure on a tank car wheelset that caused the derailment and destroyed the bridge.)

I'm no track expert but I do wonder about the ground conditions in the area and its effect on the track, grade and subgrade. Having travelled by canoe in the area myself, granted years ago, there are times I'd best describe it as soup. It could be that bad here too. 

I'll look back though the TSB archives to see what I can find, if anything, about this 2011 failure. (See above)

I'll be interested to see the TSB investigation reports forthcoming.

Charlie

Chilliwack, 
BC

[Wizlish]

Victrola1

A principal character on stage looks at his newspaper and announces, "There's been another wreck on the New Haven." It is a line in a play written early in the 20th Century. I can not remember the title of the play.

You're all dancing around it.  The play version, by Lindsay and Crouse, came between the book and the movie, and had something of a record run on Broadway between 1939 and 1947.  And yes, it has the line about 'another wreck on the New Haven' -- there were quite a few wrecks in the Mellen years, enough to be embarrassing for the crown jewel of would-be railroad tycoon Morgan et al.  I'm sure Mr. McDonald can track down the chronology...

[schlimm]

Deggesty

Well, the reference to the Hollywood production mentions the New Haven--another example of the liberties taken by writers for the silver screen.

 

Sounds pretty accurate.  If Clarence were attending Yale (in New Haven) that would be the railroad he would ride.

[Deggesty]

Well, the reference to the Hollywood production mentions the New Haven--another example of the liberties taken by writers for the silver screen.

[samfp1943]

wanswheel

 

Deggesty

I did not remember the reference to the New Haven,

 

 

 

Johnny, I don’t see New Haven in the book. The Erie will do…

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0608341h.html#c18

Mike

 

Johnnie or Mike:  Might not have the inference to [The?] New Haven,  have been made more in reference to the location of "Yale University" ?

From the first paragraph of the reference linked above: FTL"...I [Clarence] was finishing my freshman year at Yale, and by the time I got home they had gone. Father had written me that I had better follow on and join them, but I couldn't. I had spent all my allowance. There would be no more money coming to me until college opened again in September.."[snipped]

[wanswheel]

Deggesty

I did not remember the reference to the New Haven,

Johnny, I don’t see New Haven in the book. The Erie will do…

http://gutenberg.net.au/ebooks06/0608341h.html#c18

Mike

[Deggesty]

wanswheel

 

Victrola1

A principal character on stage looks at his newspaper and announces, "There's been another wreck on the New Haven."

 

 

 

http://www.quotes.net/mquote/54605

 

Mike, thank you for your post. I read the book more than sixty years ago, and enjoyed it; I did not remember the reference to the New Haven, but I did remember the tussel over getting Mr. Day baptized.

Considering that the book is set about 130 years ago, wrecks were not uncommon.

I miss spel Czech--I still  miss some words when I proofread.

[wanswheel]

Victrola1

A principal character on stage looks at his newspaper and announces, "There's been another wreck on the New Haven."

http://www.quotes.net/mquote/54605

[Euclid]

samfp1943

The photo included with the above linked article  incident ( in Ontario) shows that the tank cars at least in part were not thrown 'chock- a- block',  about the derailment scene, but seem to be laid side- by-side, in the row(?).   I am sure that an 'accident investigator' could probably assign a reason for the 'orderly' way in which the cars seemed to wind up. (?). 

The cars being laid out side by side like that was the result of “jackknifing” which leads to a zigzag or “accordion” pattern.  It is caused by the slack run-in and compression of the train.  In other words, the compression “buckles” the train. 

The compression is caused sometimes by the resistance of the derailment adding to the resistance of the brakes; and sometimes by a difference in brake retarding effort between the cars ahead of the derailment and those behind it. 

In the case of the CN wreck, the cars “zigzagged” completely into a tightly closed pattern.  Some version of the pattern is usually evident in train derailments.  An exception is when the cars derail on a high fill that causes them to loosely separate and roll downward and out of the pile-up as it happens.  You could see some of that loose separation of cars in the West Virginia CSX oil train derailment, for example.

I believe that the tendency for cars to jackknife plays a big role in rupturing tank cars.  I also believe that there are measures that could minimize the tendency for cars to jackknife. 

[schlimm]

Victrola1

one should not be suprised to see burning oil trains as fodder for television sitcoms. 

"Fireball!!!"  

[Victrola1]

A principal character on stage looks at his newspaper and announces, "There's been another wreck on the New Haven." It is a line in a play written early in the 20th Century.

I can not remember the title of the play. The New Haven's ills had obviously caught the public's attention. 

Another oil train derailment was reported today on the CN in Canada. 

If this keeps up, one should not be suprised to see burning oil trains as fodder for television sitcoms. 

 

 

[samfp1943]

Euclid

I see that there are some photos starting to show up from the oil train wreck in Ontario on Saturday morning:

http://news.nationalpost.com/2015/03/08/cn-crude-oil-train-derailment-in-gogama-ont-very-concerning-transportation-minister-says/

 

The photo included with the above linked article  incident ( in Ontario) shows that the tank cars at least in part were not thrown 'chock- a- block',  about the derailment scene, but seem to be laid side- by-side, in the row(?).   I am sure that an 'accident investigator' could probably assign a reason for the 'orderly' way in which the cars seemed to wind up. (?). 

My point is, that even these 'latest technology cars' can still derail, for many reasons.    With the thousands of cars moving about the Continent, at any given time; 'statistics' would indicate that derailments will occur at some porportional rate(?).

In December of 2014, there was an incident in Montana of a single loaded car striking a string of 30 coupled empty tank cars, resulting in the string of empties rolling onto their sides.  Point is, inspite of safety appliances used, there will be circumstances that subvert the performance of those safety appliances, as used.

See linked story, and photo @  http://missoulian.com/news/local/montana-rail-link-trains-collide-tank-cars-derail-in-missoula/article_fed15c44-9b80-5b3f-8495-63e49d5b5810.html

FTL: [snip]"...MRL spokesman Jim Lewis said the cars were rigged with double shelf couplers designed to prevent individual cars from detaching and potentially causing punctures.

“This safety feature of the tank cars worked properly, resulting in all 30 cars rolling on their side(s), as designed,” ..." [snipped]