It is not all that hard to crush a railroad tank car...
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
dehusmanOne also has to ask if them being acordianned is a bad thing. In the derailment the kinetic energy of stopping a train in a short distance has to be absorbed somehow. Are the cars substantively damaged by being accordianed or is that really better from the standpoint of allowing the train to "crumple", absorbing the energy in the least destructive way?
In a mid-train derailment, as the first cars accordion, they continue to be pushed along sideways by the cars coming ahead on the rails behind them. As the accordion continues, it builds a heap that becomes increasingly more resistant to the forward shove of the oncoming cars behind them. If the heap builds enough resistance, and if there are still say 10-40 cars behind it on the rails, their rolling kinetic energy will apply enough force to crush the first car contacted in the heap. The crushing will burst the car.
cefinkjrIsn't the LION somehow violating your "If a train doesn't carry passengers, the LION is not interested in it." creed by commenting at all on oil trains?
But LION lives in Richardton, North Dakota, so him sees the oil trains and other related Bakken services close up. Halliburton is building a sand depot right here in Richardton (west of town). Other firms are building rail terminals just east of town.
And of course we like to see people well employed in this part of the country, and so have a vested interest in the movement of the oil. (The oil industry brings more tasty people to live in our area.)
cefinkjrFollowed the links you provide (obviously) and I gotta say you are not wrapped real tight. In fact, you are almost as nutty as most of us model railroaders.
I resemble that remark!
Broadway:
Isn't the LION somehow violating your "If a train doesn't carry passengers, the LION is not interested in it." creed by commenting at all on oil trains?
Followed the links you provide (obviously) and I gotta say you are not wrapped real tight. In fact, you are almost as nutty as most of us model railroaders.
But in a more serious vein and more appropos of this thread's topic, train handling could have been a factor. We (Penn Central) learned the hard way back in the '70s that running a train full of a liquid is different than running a train full of wheat. We had a northbound Tropicana orange juice train that was literally pushed through a stop signal by the train's contents. The engineer (actually the motorman as the power was a GG1) swore that he had stopped short of the signal and then "here comes thousands of gallons of orange juice!" PC's solution was to recall from retirement some engineers (motormen) who had experience with WW II oil trains. They rode the northbound Tropicana trains for a while to advise the assigned crews.
ChuckAllen, TX
CShaveRRThe new tank specs (DOT-116) will have even thicker shells than the CPC-1232 cars. But use the Titanic-vs.-iceberg analogy. Think this shell is going to withstand a jagged rock hitting it at 40 mph? Uh-uh.
I think the issue is that the public has largely been let to believe that the stronger tank cars will solve the exploding oil train problem. There was never any escape clause about the Titanic-vs-iceberg excuse.
Please recognize that there is no coupler construction possible at all that will withstand jackknifing when you have 143 tons of pressure on each fist snapping the pencil, as it were. The couplers are fine--there was a picture making the rounds a couple of weeks (or months) ago of a string of acid tank cars that tipped over as a unit in a yard (MRL?). It's a safe assumption that these cars weren't moving at 40-50 mph when one of them tipped.The new tank specs (DOT-116) will have even thicker shells than the CPC-1232 cars. But use the Titanic-vs.-iceberg analogy. Think this shell is going to withstand a jagged rock hitting it at 40 mph? Uh-uh.Now, as to these derailments of Baaken crude. The explosiveness is caused by gases contained in the crude, which have historically been stripped from crude before shipment and flared off or put to use (they could be shpped separately in pressure tank cars if the demand were there). That's it, in a nutshell (or a CPC-1232 shell): the railroads have been doing their part, designing safer equipment and operating it over well-designed trackage. There will be failures, there will be breaches. It should be the responsibility of the shippers to take the same precautions regarding explosive gases that have been, and are being, taken elsewhere in the country. If open flares have become problematic, railroads have a solution for that, too.
Carl
Railroader Emeritus (practiced railroading for 46 years--and in 2010 I finally got it right!)
CAACSCOCOM--I don't want to behave improperly, so I just won't behave at all. (SM)
seppburgh2With the fires burning out, interesting how the cars all came to rest, as if some modler lined them all up side by side! Could the newer "CPC-1232" cars have a coupler design flaw that doesn't allow the cars to stay end-to-end? I'll put that out here for discussion.
The LION has recomended TRANSIT type tight couplers. There is no movement or release at all between these couplers, and they connect air and electrical portions in a single package. My engineer friend who is familiar with commuter operations assures me that these newer couplers (as opposed to the lighter couplers used on cars cuch as the R-32) are fully qulified by the FRA and are fully substantial for heavy freight work. And (in theroy) will not come apart in a collision.
Such couplers would keep the train in line, and would be able to transmit load data from the train back to the locomotive. Actually, a dedicated "sand car" would be used on this train, making a standard knuckle coupler to the locomotives and carring all of the electronic gear for monitoring the rest of the train.
LION proposes TRACK BRAKES for parking. Push a button in the cab, and all of the track brakes apply so that there is no chance of a parked consist of moving.
LION submitted plan to GATX and had not heard back from them, but then he did not expect to hear back from them. But you never know when they may look at a plan and enter it in the competition for a design for safe trains. If ever it were made, it would not look at all like what I envisioned, after all, LION is a big cat in a zoo, and not a engineer of any sort. But if you need a cat, do let me know.
And we can't rule out an undetected flaw in the running gear of one of the cars, either, even if they are nearly new cars.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
blue streak 1 When was the last time a CSX, Sperry, FRA or other complete inspection car went over this section of track? What is the weight of the rail ? Last time surfaced ? etc ? If the derailment happened due to defective track maybe higher standards will be imposed ?
When was the last time a CSX, Sperry, FRA or other complete inspection car went over this section of track? What is the weight of the rail ? Last time surfaced ? etc ? If the derailment happened due to defective track maybe higher standards will be imposed ?
Nothing, not even a preliminary cause, has been released yet as to cause. Cold weather has a debilitating effect on more than just track. (we had a major ruckus near here with pipeline installation under track causing massive voids and improper use of drilling fluids causing a derailment and all the local media could focus on was soft/failing fill)
BigJim I have a question that I don't think I have ever seen brought up. Why do these trains not have five buffer cars next to the engines? Seeing how volatile this stuff is, it may not make a lot of difference, but, it sure looks warranted to me. I can't find my HazMat book to look up what they have classed this stuff as.
I have a question that I don't think I have ever seen brought up.
Why do these trains not have five buffer cars next to the engines? Seeing how volatile this stuff is, it may not make a lot of difference, but, it sure looks warranted to me. I can't find my HazMat book to look up what they have classed this stuff as.
If it wasn't a unit train it would need to be 5 cars from the engines. The unit train changes the rules a bit.
Randy
narig01Has anyone knowledge of the large number of oil shipments during WWII when German submarines were sinking US tankers off the Atlantic coast. Were there any problems like we have today? For a number of years during the war oil was moving from Texas to the Northeast in quantity. Thx IGN
I have seen pictures of derailments involving these oil trains with a pretty good fire involved. News of these events was usually suppressed due to wartime censorship. Tank car construction and size were quite different during the WW2 era.
Shelf coupler
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
narig01 Were there any problems like we have today?
Yeah, we were completely ignorant of the effects of pollutants in our water back in the 40s :(
This is the standard arrangement. The couple can swivel in the yoke. Slop in the mating surfaces in the head aren't needed for going around curves, in fact titelock couplers used on passenger cars mate solidly with no slop in any direction.
A shelf coupler that's used on the tank cars has lip that keeps the couplers coupled even if one car moves vertically relative to the other.
Derailment forces can rip and break all sorts of parts once things get to jack knifing. You're not going to design car parts that withstand derailments, but some can help derailments progress in less dangerous ways.
“Gordon Wren Jr., Rockland's Fire and Emergency Service director, said it was "worrisome" that the purportedly tougher tank cars failed.”
The new design is "tougher' not impenetrable. Actually I read reports that seemed to indicate that the newer design may be working. One quote from somebody on the scene said that the every 30 minutes to an hour a car would explode. While that obviously isn't good, that on face value seems to indicate that the better thermal protection is working since it is taking a lot longer for the cars exposed to heat to "cook off". In the 111 derailments the cars were exploding within minutes of being exposed to the fires. Thermal protection doesn't prevent the cars from being overheated, it delays it. Much like in a home drywall is rated at about a half hour. A fire will take a half hour to burn through a wall covered in drywall. It doesn't prevent the fire from spreading, it buys time for the responders to arrive and start taking steps to put the fire out.
Until they dig through the wreckage and figure out which car was the first to be breached and what caused it to be breached, we won't know really if the cars worked as designed or not.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
seppburgh2 With the fires burning out, interesting how the cars all came to rest, as if some modler lined them all up side by side! Could the newer "CPC-1232" cars have a coupler design flaw that doesn't allow the cars to stay end-to-end? I'll put that out here for discussion.
With the fires burning out, interesting how the cars all came to rest, as if some modler lined them all up side by side! Could the newer "CPC-1232" cars have a coupler design flaw that doesn't allow the cars to stay end-to-end? I'll put that out here for discussion.
The couplers are designed to keep from by-passing each other, not to keep the cars rigidly in line. The couplers have to allow the cars to be a some angle to each other or else they would never be able to go around a curve. Once the cars reach that angle (and if they are derailed ther is nothing to keep them in line) the forces are large enough cause them to accordian. One also has to ask if them being acordianned is a bad thing. In the derailment the kinetic energy of stopping a train in a short distance has to be absorbed somehow. Are the cars substantively damaged by being accordianed or is that really better from the standpoint of allowing the train to "crumple", absorbing the energy in the least destructive way?
BaltACD seppburgh2 One other point, local (Central PA) CBS news stated these tanker trains are "bomb trains" hinting these types of shippments should be band. Gee, if there can't build a pipe line to move the oil, guess will either stop drilling, ship it to Canada or start moving by truck. Trucks are a 'safe' method of transportation as they drive around populated areas. Right? They are using a bad analogy - this is a real 'Bomb Train' http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=%28select+3967%29
seppburgh2 One other point, local (Central PA) CBS news stated these tanker trains are "bomb trains" hinting these types of shippments should be band. Gee, if there can't build a pipe line to move the oil, guess will either stop drilling, ship it to Canada or start moving by truck. Trucks are a 'safe' method of transportation as they drive around populated areas. Right?
One other point, local (Central PA) CBS news stated these tanker trains are "bomb trains" hinting these types of shippments should be band. Gee, if there can't build a pipe line to move the oil, guess will either stop drilling, ship it to Canada or start moving by truck. Trucks are a 'safe' method of transportation as they drive around populated areas. Right?
They are using a bad analogy - this is a real 'Bomb Train'
http://specialcollection.dotlibrary.dot.gov/Document?db=DOT-RAILROAD&query=%28select+3967%29
I read the story about that. Days of destruction that made a war zone look good.
Norm
Does anybody have information on the posted track speed for freight trains at that location? Would the train have likely been traveling at the posted track speed at that location, or some lesser rate based on operating rules for the location?
Its because of the potential for incidents like this one, and the increase in rail traffic from the oil trains and the coal trains, here in WA state, that BNSF spent $125 million in 2013 for rail improvements. This year BNSF plans to spend 189 million on rail improvements across in WA state. One of the improvements will be replacing a 107 year old railroad bridge in my local town. There are as many as 35 trains that travel over that bridge in a 24 hour period with multiple oil and coal trains each week. They'll especially need to improve the rails in this area if the Tesoro oil plant goes in at the Port of Vancouver, WA, because the oil trains will definitely increase. I think BNSF is being pro-active in making these improvements to prevent such incidents, and to prepare for the increase in all rail traffic.
Trains Northwest
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC7z2SF15sZ3pfV_VymvNf9A
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
seppburgh2stop drilling
This would be the preferred solution in some people's opinion....
Like many, however, they are probably woefully ignorant of exactly what role such products play in their lives...
This time, it wasn't a "big" disaster but what if it happens going through a heavily populated area such as a Chicago suburb. Say, Hinsdale Illinois by the Hinsdale hospital. The railroads are literaly sitting on a ticking time bomb hauling this Baken Crude.
Euclid What has never been clear to me, however, is the actual performance of the stronger tank cars. Will they be strong enough? What would have happened in yesterday’s derailment if the tank cars were all built to the new standard of strength?
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