A story in the news section http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2014/12/utah-drops-plan-to-build-new-oil-field-railroad says that a Utah oil railroad proposal has been dropped. It would have been a 100 mile, $5 billion project. That's $50 million per mile! The article mentions 2.4% ruling grade, an 8 mile tunnel and several dozen bridges. Can this be right? Can a rail line cost $9470 per foot? The good news, I suppose, is that the folks involved figured out it didn't make economic sense to pursue this before spending a gazillion dollars.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Miracle of miracles- I somehow managed to get the link to light up.
Murphy Siding A story in the news section http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2014/12/utah-drops-plan-to-build-new-oil-field-railroad says that a Utah oil railroad proposal has been dropped. It would have been a 100 mile, $5 billion project. That's $50 million per mile! The article mentions 2.4% ruling grade, an 8 mile tunnel and several dozen bridges. Can this be right? Can a rail line cost $9470 per foot? The good news, I suppose, is that the folks involved figured out it didn't make economic sense to pursue this before spending a gazillion dollars.
Johnny
A new RR line through very rough topography can be very expensive construction. Then you add the ROW acquisition costs along with the litigation and its associated delays; the time value of money and necessity to be able to pay your bills on time comprise probably 85% or more of the $50 million.
I would opine that the bulk of the cost would have been tied up in that eight mile tunnel and other engineering challenges. Grading roadbed and laying track would be much less as a part of the overall project.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
In difficult terrain it sounds to be in the ballpark. CPR's Rogers Pass Project from 30 years ago cost $500-600 million dollars for 21 miles of new alignment. Nearly half the distance was in two tunnels (1 and 9 miles respectively). However with various bridges and retaining walls the open section cost close to the same as the tunnels. Factor for 30 years of inflation and the number looks pretty comparable.
John
Tunnels and Bridges have never been cheap!
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Add to that that the San Pete and Thistle entries to the old DRGW Marysville Sub are roaded over or cut-off entirely, so there it goes. Johnny can always hope the Vernal extension happens (nobody ever quite got there yet, although Horace Sumner had Tom Milner survey a line in that direction from the D&SL railhead at Craig. Moffat was out of $$$ and died shortly thereafter.)
I don't comprehend why MC's 11:54 (MT) post does not appear in my Trains forums website, but I did get it in my email.
As to David Moffat's desire for the Denver and Salt Lake Railroad to reach Salt Lake City, it would be just as prohibitively expensive, relatively, today as it was when he ran out of money. As it is, it is 108 miles, by US 40, from Craig, Col., to Vernal, Utah. I doubt that a decent railroad could be built in that distance. Having driven from Carig to Vernal once, in 1974, I do not remember much of the road; I only remember that it is mountainous.
So bring back the Uintah Railway - 3 ft. gauge, 66-degree [91.8 +/- ft. radius] curves, 7.5% grade - Shays and simple articulated steam locos, etc.* - what's not to like ?
* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uintah_Railway
See also: http://utahrails.net/utahrails/six-county.php
http://www.udot.utah.gov/uintabasinrail/index.html
http://www.udot.utah.gov/uintabasinrail/library.html
http://www.udot.utah.gov/uintabasinrail/faq.html
- Paul North.
Tom Wigglesworth and the Colorado Midland found a saner way in 1886, but ran out of $$$$.
Good thing Utah "looked before they leapt" into a deep pit of expenditures (not quite bottomless . . . ) - that's what competent consultants (HDR in this instance) are for. Cost a lot of money for all the studies and EIS so far, but that's small change compared to the estimated cost and possible overruns . . .
Although, while not looking worthwhile right now, if/ when the price of crude oil ever gets back up to the $150 per bbl. range again, it might be economically feasible.
The way these price/demand-supply cycles work, if they started now, it might be completed by the time that happens !
Or, to paraphrase what someone else said about another railroad not too far away: "Gentlemen, either we built this line 100 miles too far, or 100 years too soon." (San Francisco financier Darius Ogden Mills, July 12, 1883, of the Carson & Colorado - 300 miles/ 300 years instead, as quoted in American Narrow Gauge Railroads by George W. Hilton, 1990, pgs. 438-440; see also: http://www.daytonnvhistory.org/cc_history_llc.pdf , pg. 2).
Paul,
Thanks for posting that link to the Dayton History website, it was an interesting read and brought back a lot of memories. One disagreement with the pdf was that the V&T was more of an active shortline railroad as opposed to being a "tourist road" (e.g. see The Silver Short Line by Wurm and Demorro).
Memories include seeing some of the C&C rolling stock by the Nevada state Capitol building when I lived in Carson City. I was amused when an ad for a model of one of the cars said it was parked next to the Governors Mansion, which I went by twice a day on my way to/from the Jr High in 7th grade - we had moved to San Diego when the ad appeared. The familiy travels between Southern California and Carson City almost invariably took us through the Owens Valley.
More recent memories involved a camping trip along the C&C ROW between Keeler and a few miles north of Montgomery pass. This was with some OERM buddies after we finished the building for housing Ward Kimball's 3 ft gauge collection, where several of the cars were from the C&C. I would have loved to take a ride over the Montgomery pass line, but the abandonment took place 16 years before I was born.
In terms of difficulty, the San Diego & Arizona line was a bit closer to the proposed Utah line, especially if it was kept entirely within the US.
- Erik
Generally the cost is $1 million a mile. depending of course on the grade and route.
That's usually the figure for the track structure only - rail, ties, ballast, and fasteners/ accessories (maybe the subballast, too). It does not include the earthwork / grading (clearing, cuts and fills), culverts, bridges over or under, tunnels, special grade crossings of roads or other railroads, signaling, service and support facilities, etc., etc. - nor the 'soft' costs such as engineering, permits, legal, financing, etc.
And lets not ignor the Right of Way acquisition costs including, at times, legal costs and delays because of reluctant sellers.
Plus you gotta buy a few engines and cars,,, otherwise your building a bumpy unoffidial bike path.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
When CSX reinstalled double track on the railroad between Sherwood, OH and Pine Jct, IN to facilitate the ConRail acquisition in the late 1990's - the cost was approximately $2M a mile of track that was reconstructed and the crossovers that were installed - this was track & signalling to permit 79 MPH passenger operations. The reconstruction did not have any land acquisition costs or the necessity to build an significant bridges or tunnels.
To add on to Paul North's comment, I rather suspect that while the one million dollars per mile is a useful starting point for the "track only" part, I believe it is mostly used for secondary tracks. Lighter rail (often 2nd hand) and relatively easy logistics for getting material and manpower to the site. Turnouts will be an extra cost item. It assumes the trackbed is ready and waiting.
The number is very useful for bringing a dose of reality to folks casually thinking of adding tracks into their facility. They are used to having road infrastructure provided at minimal or no cost. Rail access sounds "nice to have" in the concept stage. When faced with real cost, the actual expected use is revisited and often found to be minimal.
If the desire is still to build rail access, then a serious effort will be made to produce a more accurate estimate. That costs time and effort on the part of somebody (often the proposed contractor) so he wants to weed out the naive requests early.
What about the BNSF Abo Canyon double track project. Anyone knows of any figures for that? Being only a few miles, the cost per mile would still be an indication.
jarodlan, good thought but will be a complicated response if the correct total cost can be obtained.
First there was substantial delay and expense because of resistance by a few interests. The legal fees for this may not be attainable; and any costs attributable to mitigating settlements with some of these interests may be sealed. The 'time value' of the dollars spent in this permitting process should also be added.
The costs associated with constructing this second track in very difficult terrain while keeping the current adjoining track operating in what can be 100 trains per day on this southern Transcon makes this project very unique. Its cost(s) are not likely to be comparable to anything like the project which began this discussion.
$85 Million to $118 Million for Abo Canyon, depending on who's bragging about a 4.5 - 8.0 mile long project......IIRC, there is a huge new mountain that looks like a loaf of bread to the north of the canyon containing the waste material excavated from the cuts and widening of the original grade named for SP Location engineer Abo that died there long before ATSF finagled the 1905-1908 Belen Cut-Off.
mudchicken [snipped - PDN]......IIRC, there is a huge new mountain that looks like a loaf of bread to the north of the canyon containing the waste material excavated from the cuts and widening of the original grade . . .
Some day far in the future aliens will wonder what it is, or think it was an early 21st century burial mound . . .
i believe that the second main on the UP Sunset line is costing about $10 million a mile. No land cost and easy grading. Lots of crossovers and new signaling on both tracks. Work is being done under traffic. They seem to be doing about 25 miles a year.
This is an interesting discussion to me because here in Va. Beach, Va., the City bought the NS right-of-way running from Norfolk to the the resort area and have been discussing running light rail on it. The cost figures being kicked around are in the range of $400Million and this is for about 12 miles along the line that NS ran freight trains on just a few years ago and that track is still there although it needs to be upgraded. The line is straight and flat with one bridge structure that is still there. Why should that be so much more expensive?
Urban area will probably cause multiple utility relocations for a electrically powered light rail operation as well as governmental spearheading of the project as opposed to private investment money.
BaltACD Urban area will probably cause multiple utility relocations for a electrically powered light rail operation as well as governmental spearheading of the project as opposed to private investment money.
Been reading back in this Thread, and in particularly, the ABO Canyon Project Costs from $85 million to $116 million, total costs for this project. As was previously mentioned..BNSF suffered some legal expenses with the Project from Local types who were afraid that they were being 'infringed upon(?)'.
To build anything in the enviornment of today's society, with its burden of Regulations, and their EIS statements; legal expenses are as much a part of the compleation of large projects. Costs can mean abandonment (and subsequent remediation?) or huge,over-runs to get to the finish.
When one of these projects is authorized, does the 'Team' include legal counsels, as well as engineers? Does the initial costing of a project contain projections for legal expenses also? Is there a formula for that sort of calculation?
vbeach This is an interesting discussion to me because here in Va. Beach, Va., the City bought the NS right-of-way running from Norfolk to the the resort area and have been discussing running light rail on it. The cost figures being kicked around are in the range of $400Million and this is for about 12 miles along the line that NS ran freight trains on just a few years ago and that track is still there although it needs to be upgraded. The line is straight and flat with one bridge structure that is still there. Why should that be so much more expensive?
samfp1943 [snipped - PDN] . . . When one of these projects is authorized, does the 'Team' include legal counsels, as well as engineers? Does the initial costing of a project contain projections for legal expenses also? Is there a formula for that sort of calculation?
For example, for land development and subdivisions, Pennsylvania law allows the local government to add 10% for these kinds of costs (engineering, inspection, and legal) for an escrow account, letter of credit, or performance bond, etc., to the estimated cost of the work - which is supposed to be fully engineered and ready-to-build at that point - subject to adjustment later on for actual expenditures, and a refund of any left-over amounts. [Pennsylvania Municipalities Planning Code, Section 509 (f) ].
The project in Va. Beach would extend the light rail line that Norfolk already had built to the west edge of VB along the previous NS right-of-way. They already have the light rail cars in use along with the maintenance facilities for them. The existing crossings in VB already have the signals that NS installed and some of the 12 mile stretch has sidings in place and a fair amount of the track was in use by NS up to just a few years ago for freight trains.
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