Boxcars in 2014

[BOB WITHORN]

Coors started shipping beer concentrate to a bottling plant in Va. in 1987. Just add water, instant brew. Than pack and ship.

[WSOR 3801]

MillerCoors in Milwaukee (the city that made beer famous) only receives inbound malt and corn syrup.  Outbound loads stopped 3-4 years ago.  

Apparently lack of suitable cars (RBLs) was part of the problem.  The dock was set up for 4 50 foot inside length cars.  Many of these cars are getting to be 40 years old and scrapped.  

[tree68]

Train Guy 3

Beer. Lots and lots Beer. The Coors plant...

I think all of the product of the Budweiser plant in Baldwinsville, NY goes out by truck.  They get raw materials in by rail, but that's covered hoppers.  

[Train Guy 3]

Beer. Lots and lots Beer. The Coors plant in my aera sends out and average of 8-12 cars of beer daily. I have neever calculated for a boxcar load but that's quite a few cases of the Rocky Mountain beverage. Not sure how many trucks leave the plant daily but there are about 200 trailers on site everyday. My guess is that the loaded boxcars are going to a distribution center far away while the trailers are destined for a much more localized market. I would have to say the beer market is going to keep the boxcar and trailer traffic 'east bound & down' for a good long while.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

samfp1943

[snipped - PDN] To Paul North;

   And some of the others who responded about Wal-Mart D.C.'s and their receiving habits... Admittedly it has been some time since I had anything to do with Inbounds to their facilities, and so outbounds, as well.   Then you were 'scolded', and quickly rescheduled.  That does not happen too often.

. . .

  From the first time I was inbound to a Wal*Mard D.C. they insisted on a delivery within a very, tight 'window'.. miss that 'window', and you were forced out of their property, to await another re-appointed delivery scheduled appointment.  No excuses, you missed their time, and you cooled your heels waiting for another 'window'- unless, they needed it really badly. . . .

The signs I've seen and the actions of the drivers - parking along the approach roads, etc. - at that distribution center seem to be very similar to what Sam has related above.

- Paul North. 

[Murphy Siding]

HI IRON

I never believed or saw any justification  for the BS of boxcars to disappear from the American freight railroad network. They carry far too many goods for which they were invented for. If anything, they're numbers seem to be increasing.

 

 

  I don't know about justification, but it seems a fair amount of stuff that used to go in a boxcar now goes in a different type of car- grain, lumber, etc...

[chutton01]

HI IRON

I never believed or saw any justification  for the BS of boxcars to disappear from the American freight railroad network. They carry far too many goods for which they were invented for. If anything, they're numbers seem to be increasing.

While they certainly continue to be a significant percentage of the NA rail fleet, it is true that their percentage dropped significantly starting in the 1960s (I believe), due, among other things, first to loss of LCL traffic, then the movement of bulk loads such as cement and grain (especially grain*) to covered hoppers (heck, they even tried shipping potatoes in refrigerated covered hoppers), and then in the 1970s and 1980s a loss of freight flows to containization and TOFC (which might have just went to truck and skipped the railroad all together, hard to say), so by the 1980s it was really easy for hot-air pundits and self-proclaimed futurists to pronounce the boxcar dead (the fact that almost no new boxcars were constructed in the 1980s and early 1990s certainly didn't help). The refrigerator car was even worse, I think there was a gap in construction from the mid-1970s till the mid-1990s - I recall an article in the hobby press to the effect that "Will the refrigerator car survive".

*Actually, at this late date, it sort of boggles my mind of all the work and bother required to get a boxcar ready to recieve bulk grain as was common prior to the 1960s, but I guess it was more cost effective than purchasing dedicated grain-loading covered hoppers.

[erikem]

HI IRON,

Welcome to the discussion! (Noting you've seem to have made your first post.)

- Erik

[HI IRON]

I never believed or saw any justification  for the BS of boxcars to disappear from the American freight railroad network. They carry far too many goods for which they were invented for. If anything, they're numbers seem to be increasing.

 

[carnej1]

I am no expert on the railroad industry but what I notice in my neck of the woods is that remaining boxcar traffic tends to be products that are not intended to be crossdocked (transloaded) from rail to truck directly but are being produced (or aggregated in the case of paper waste) or used at the site the boxcar is delivered to..

 The commodities coming and going from RI by boxcar seem to be exclusively paper products. Newsprint and cardboard packaging materials in and recycalble paper products out.

 From that I hypothesize that if the item being shipped is an already packaged consumer product many of the manufacturers prefer intermodal. I understand there are bulky items like appliances that are exceptions to the rule.

[MarknLisa]

There are a couple of warehouses across from our office park. One ships bales of scrap paper, the other receives loads of Morton water softener salt.

[csxns]

Clearwater paper just built a plant near me and built two tracks to load and unload boxcars,about twenty miles from that Horsehead metals built a large plant and i know it is not boxcars they get lots of tank cars and covered hoppers and that is on CSX.

[EMD#1]

Boxcars haul a variety of products. Most 50' boxcars are used to haul paper products of which can be printing paper, pulpboard or scrap paper. They also haul lumber, brick, aluminum and copper wire. Most companies nowadays prefer the 100 ton cars over the 70 ton cars. Customers like to use Railroads to haul the heavy stuff as they can get three to four truck loads in one car and generally ship it for about the same cost as one truck would charge. The high cube 60' boxcars are often used to haul lighter weight products like where the extra space comes in handy. This might be food grade products like canned goods and cereal. But they can also be used to haul plywood and particle board. Some are also used to transport paper and tires. GM uses 60' boxcars to haul auto parts. The large 86' boxcars are used by Ford and Chrysler to haul auto parts. They also are used to haul appliances like washers, dryers, refrigerators and dishwashers.

Tim G

Norfolk Southern Locomotive Engineer

[Dasco]

I've always kept tabs on who's loading what into boxcars wherever I can, particularly the more unusual loads.  So, in the midwest (MN and surrounding areas) I've seen recently - boxcars at the brewery in LaCrosse, at a brick manufacturer south of Sioux City, at area canneries like Rochester, Sleepy Eye & Arlington, MN, at Brown Printing in Waseca, occasionally at the flour mill in Mankato, MN, and countless others in the Twin Cities.  

But going back to the 80s, growing up in Mankato, we had more - a Budweiser distributor, salt coming in for roads in the winter, cubes of scrap metal, and then coming through on trains were loads of wood chips heading to Wisconsin mills.  So, it seems that some of the smaller users have been dumped or changed to some other car or mode, but some continue on....

[samfp1943]

To Paul North;

   And some of the others who responded about Wal-Mart D.C.'s and their receiving habits... Admittedly it has been some time since I had anything to do with Inbounds to their facilities, and so outbounds, as well.   Then you were 'scolded', and quickly rescheduled.  That does not happen too often.

  Their problem as I see it, is similar to many food related and store merchandise distributors. 

Mostly, everything they(The Dristribution Whse) get(s) has to be hand unloaded, and restacked on their pallets, to their specs. 

  'Driver unload' is their key.. ( The Trucking Company hires Wal*Mart approved 'lumpers, or the Trucking Company compensates their driver for the unload.( This is the rub, for the longest time, a driver's compensation to unload was ALWAYS less than what the 'Lumpers' demanded.  So the driver had to pony up the difference.  ( This has led to some explosive confrontations on docks around the country.)

  I would defer to some of the other Posters here, who are actively into the day to day OTR Delivery business. 

  From the first time I was inbound to a Wal*Mard D.C. they insisted on a delivery within a very, tight 'window'.. miss that 'window', and you were forced out of their property, to await another re-appointed delivery scheduled appointment.  No excuses, you missed their time, and you cooled your heels waiting for another 'window'- unless, they needed it really badly.

  Trucking Companies that have negotiated with WalMart to drop trailers and have WalMart lumpers unload, pay a 'premium for this priviledge.  Companies that deliver containers also fit into this problem. They may have their own employed Lumper Companies that work at WalMart, and just unload their own inbounds to WalMart specs.  Otherwise a road driver is tied up at WalMart Docks unloading their company inbounds...not a thing that goes gently with OTR Drivers ! 

 If WalMart had rail docks,thenWal Mart would have 'to jump through the hoops' they have created for other carriers, to unload their own inbound merchandise (that means: WM is responsibe for wages and benefits to those employees, engaged in those activities).  With the lumper unload services, WM ducks all those costs and responsibilites for benefits, and compensation costs, not to mention liabilities...

Ultimately, the receiver is able to dodge some liability and employee compensation costs, while passing those cost to the Transportation side of their Distribution inbound operations.. and the Transportaton Industry takes another hit... and that is probably still how " the hog ate the turnip."   IMHO

I would hope that Ulrich or maybe Randy V. can respond...

I'd bet things have not changed too much since I retired.

Ok, I'm off my Soapbox.

[Paul of Covington]

   Walmart, from what I read a while back, is obsessed with timing.   The truck is given a time that he is expected to arrive, and he can be something like 1/2 hour early or one hour late, (I don't remember the exact time window.)   If he doesn't make that window, it's curtains for him.   They obviously don't want their loading docks tied up. so the railcar scene is something that doesn't fit in with their philosophy.   There is a Walmart distribution center a few miles from here, and I frequently see trucks stopped in vacant lots or on the side of the highway apparently waiting for their time.

   My stepson worked there for a short time, and to me it sounded like the the definition of a sweat shop: constant running to move merchandise.

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

Can't answer the P&G part, but within the last 10 days I had a phone conversation with a marketing guy for an eastern regional/ short-line about the Wal-Mart distribution center #6080 in the Tobyhanna/ Mt. Pocono area of NorthEastern Pennsylvania, which abuts his track ( N 41 9.747' W 75 24.173' ).  He said that when it was built, the RR offered to install a siding - no interest on Wal-Mart's part, though.  No deep insights as to why not, either - the terrain was (and is) pretty good for such a sidetrack, too.  The truck volume seems to be in the range of 200 - 300 per day, so you'd think someone would take a look at it . . .  

One thought that occurs to me is that a rail siding along a building takes up a lot of space that they'd probably rather be able to use for truck docks.  There are ways to do that, of course  - tracks in paving, and boxcar doors and canvas covers every 60 ft. or so with the regular truck docks and levelers between, but that's still a complication and some loss of truck capacity.  Also, imagine what happens when the train shows up and there's still 1 - or many trucks - at the docks waiting to finish loading/ unloading.  The train has to wait until they're all cleared, and no loading/ unloading of the trucks can occur until the train is done and gone, etc.  

A clever or energetic person could probably figure out a way to integrate or manage it all, but they seem to be in short supply these days.

- Paul North.   

[jclass]

OK, so why did Proctor & Gamble's huge paper product distribution center in east Green Bay not include direct rail service for boxcars as part of its design, and why don't Walmart's centers include them also?  As I understand it, Walmart is the paragon of distribution efficiency.  Are they missing a bet?

[Overmod]

erikem

 

 

Paul_D_North_Jr

 Most of you know I'm a big (maybe the biggest ?  ) John Kneiling fan - he was famous (notorious ?) for advocating essentially that all freight should go into either bulk unit trains or containers.

 

 

 

My father in law gave me a book he picked up when he was a lad, STEEL TRAILS, the Epic of the Railroads By Martin Stevers (C 1933).  The book went into great detail about the business of running the railroads, with interesting vignettes of life prior to computers. One of the main points of the book was that railroads excelled when engaged in mass transportation, rather than retail transportation. While carload lots aren't as cost effective as trainload lots, they're still more cost effective than LCL.

Given proper infrastrcture, boxcars are just fine for handling cargo.

- Erik

P.S. Where's the Spell Czech when I need it...

 

P.P.S. -- IT coders please note that the 'smiley' feature does not work correctly in quoted text.

[erikem]

Several of the Trains issues from 1H1968 had articles by JGK on the problems of loose car railroading, one being that the cars were averaging 1 t 2 MPH in service (i.e. spent most of their time standing still). The was the poor capital utilization argument against loose car railroading, which was in addition to the high labor cost.

My point in bringing up the Stevers book is that concerns about loose car railroading preceded JGK. FWIW, I dod have a copy of Integral Train Systems in my library.

Agree wholeheartedly about the use of tols making a big difference.

- Erik

[MP173]

Two points:

1.  About 15 years ago I had a discussion with a major consumer company who ordered decals from me for railcars.  I asked him "what kind of cars".  He replied boxcars and they were aggressively purchasing such cars as they were extremely efficient for their product.

2.  Today on the Chesterton In webcam, the eastbound 10R run thru from BNSF had a block of 25 boxcars, almost all the same size.  I have asked the question on another thread...could this be wine?  All cars were larger than the typical 60 ft paper cars.

3.  A great site is seeing the UP switch the Chicago Tribune plant in the north loop bringing in boxcars.

Ed

 

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

What I forgot to mention was that JGK also advocated the demise of 'loose car' railroading as it was then performed.  The main reason was the high costs of the 'retail' transportation aspect of it - typically, the 'first/ last mile' component with a peddler or local switching train and a full 5-man crew plus caboose, etc. and some of that has indeed happened  - for example, 2 man-crews, remote control, no caboose, denser grouping of industries, multiple-car deliveries instead of just single cars, RFID car tracking, etc.  

These changes reinforce the validity of the maxim from greyhounds above - it's how the tools are used  that matters.

- Paul North.    

[erikem]

Paul_D_North_Jr

 Most of you know I'm a big (maybe the biggest ?  ) John Kneiling fan - he was famous (notorious ?) for advocating essentially that all freight should go into either bulk unit trains or containers.

My father in law gave me a book he picked up when he was a lad, STEEL TRAILS, the Epic of the Railroads By Martin Stevers (C 1933).  The book went into great detail about the business of running the railroads, with interesting vignettes of life prior to computers. One of the main points of the book was that railroads excelled when engaged in mass transportation, rather than retail transportation. While carload lots aren't as cost effective as trainload lots, they're still more cost effective than LCL.

Given proper infrastrcture, boxcars are just fine for handling cargo.

- Erik

P.S. Where's the Spell Czech when I need it...

[rvos1979]

The way my company's trucks are set up, I can get 47,000 lbs in the box before going overweight. So, weight wise, it's about a 4 to 1 ratio at its best, a little less if the product cubes out........

[Paul_D_North_Jr]

greyhounds

I've done a 180 on this one.

I'm now convinced that boxcars have a bright and shining future.  Business handled in boxcars will grow.  It's not the equipment, it's how the equipment is used. 

Great quote ! (aphorism). 

Most of you know I'm a big (maybe the biggest ?  ) John Kneiling fan - he was famous (notorious ?) for advocating essentially that all freight should go into either bulk unit trains or containers.  But even back in the late 1970's I wondered about the validity of that while watching 20-car strings of boxcars coming out of the huge Procter & Gamble Paper Products Co. plant at Mehoopany, PA.  It seemed to me even then that there was maybe a niche - or more accurately, a middle ground - for carload-sized freight traffic between those two extremes of a 10,000 ton train or a 20 or 25 ton container.  Subsequent developments and history have validated that view - there's a need for all 3 types of tools, and they can and do function well together to cover the panoply of traffic sources - it's not a "one-size fits all" type of thing. 

And the carload traffic is more than just boxcars - tank cars, reefers, center-beams, etc. are just some other examples. 

One essential reason is that a single car can hold about 200,000 lbs. = 100 tons of payload (263,000 lbs. gross wt.), and even as much as 110 to 125-tons on certain routes (315K car), if the payload is dense/ heavy enough.  That's the equivalent of 4-1/2 to 6 truckloads - a cost advantage that's pretty compelling. 

I'll let others comment on the cubic capacity of freight cars vs. trucks or containers.  I'm sure there is some advantage there too, but not as dramatic - maybe by only a factor of 2 or 3 instead ?

- Paul North.   

[MidlandMike]

They seem to be prevalent in produce type farming areas.

[Lake]

greyhounds

OK, think about it:

"The thing itself is not supreme, but rather the use we make of it. . . ." Gallamore, Robert E.  American Railroads

A very good quote indeed!

[greyhounds]

dakotafred

 

 

greyhounds

I've done a 180 on this one.

I'm now convinced that boxcars have a bright and shining future.  Business handled in boxcars will grow.  It's not the equipment, it's how the equipment is used.

 

 

 

 

Boy, would I love to see an expansion of Greyhounds' thinking on this. (At your leisure, G.)

 

OK, think about it:

"The thing itself is not supreme, but rather the use we make of it. . . ."

 

Gallamore, Robert E. (2014-06-17). American Railroads (Kindle Locations 906-908). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

 

 

[Lake]

During the different harvest periods we see lots of these along the I5 rail corridor. Every town, big or small seems to have some kind of processing plant.