Back in 1980, or thereabouts, we were told by the "experts" that the boxcar was dying out and would soon be gone. Yet, in 2014, I still see them in trains that come through my hometown. Who ships freight in boxcars in 2014? Specifically, what kind of frieght is it? Could the boxcar share of the market grow?
Thanks,
George
I would opine that certain commodities, like auto parts, are pretty much set up to use boxcars. A change to the alternative, containers, would require changes to how they handle them - ie, a reconfiguration of the loading and unloading facilities. As long as the railroads are providing the service required with boxcars, they probably see no need to change.
On the other hand, a commodity like newsprint might well find its way into containers, as local service dwindles, sidings are removed, etc. But, a large printing facility, which might go through boxcars of paper regularly, will likely continue that mode.
Other commodities, like lumber (I recall watching the crew from a local lumberyard unload a boxcar one board at a time...) have moved to centerbeam flats, or perhaps containers for "fancier" items.
Since boxcars by their nature "hide" their contents, I can only guess what's moving down the line here, but a lot of it comes out of Canada.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Up in the PNW, paper boxcars are one of the most common types of cars on manifest trains.
I've done a 180 on this one.
I'm now convinced that boxcars have a bright and shining future. Business handled in boxcars will grow. It's not the equipment, it's how the equipment is used.
greyhounds I've done a 180 on this one. I'm now convinced that boxcars have a bright and shining future. Business handled in boxcars will grow. It's not the equipment, it's how the equipment is used.
Boy, would I love to see an expansion of Greyhounds' thinking on this. (At your leisure, G.)
The reason why newsprint would not be loaded in as many box cars this year is because several large newspapers and newspaper chains have moved all of their operations away from locations next to railroad tracks. Many of the newspapers have cut back on the the number of printings per-day and per-week.
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overall Back in 1980, or thereabouts, we were told by the "experts" that the boxcar was dying out and would soon be gone. Yet, in 2014, I still see them in trains that come through my hometown. Who ships freight in boxcars in 2014? Specifically, what kind of frieght is it? Could the boxcar share of the market grow? Thanks, George
Lumber and plywood are still shipped in boxcars. As is veneer to make plywood.
Also lots of scrap paper going to paper mills to be made into new paper.
All manner of products that need to be protected from the weather -- foodstuffs, machinery, hardware store items, plumbing fixtures, bathroom fixtures, cabinets, etc. etc.
Boxcars make up about one third of the cars in the general freght trains that come thru Tallahassee. This is a rough "eyeball" estimate, not acount.
In our area, plywood and carboard stock are shipped in by boxcar.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
During the different harvest periods we see lots of these along the I5 rail corridor. Every town, big or small seems to have some kind of processing plant.
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dakotafred greyhounds I've done a 180 on this one. I'm now convinced that boxcars have a bright and shining future. Business handled in boxcars will grow. It's not the equipment, it's how the equipment is used. Boy, would I love to see an expansion of Greyhounds' thinking on this. (At your leisure, G.)
OK, think about it:
"The thing itself is not supreme, but rather the use we make of it. . . ."
Gallamore, Robert E. (2014-06-17). American Railroads (Kindle Locations 906-908). Harvard University Press. Kindle Edition.
greyhoundsOK, think about it: "The thing itself is not supreme, but rather the use we make of it. . . ." Gallamore, Robert E. American Railroads
"The thing itself is not supreme, but rather the use we make of it. . . ." Gallamore, Robert E. American Railroads
A very good quote indeed!
They seem to be prevalent in produce type farming areas.
Most of you know I'm a big (maybe the biggest ? ) John Kneiling fan - he was famous (notorious ?) for advocating essentially that all freight should go into either bulk unit trains or containers. But even back in the late 1970's I wondered about the validity of that while watching 20-car strings of boxcars coming out of the huge Procter & Gamble Paper Products Co. plant at Mehoopany, PA. It seemed to me even then that there was maybe a niche - or more accurately, a middle ground - for carload-sized freight traffic between those two extremes of a 10,000 ton train or a 20 or 25 ton container. Subsequent developments and history have validated that view - there's a need for all 3 types of tools, and they can and do function well together to cover the panoply of traffic sources - it's not a "one-size fits all" type of thing.
And the carload traffic is more than just boxcars - tank cars, reefers, center-beams, etc. are just some other examples.
One essential reason is that a single car can hold about 200,000 lbs. = 100 tons of payload (263,000 lbs. gross wt.), and even as much as 110 to 125-tons on certain routes (315K car), if the payload is dense/ heavy enough. That's the equivalent of 4-1/2 to 6 truckloads - a cost advantage that's pretty compelling.
I'll let others comment on the cubic capacity of freight cars vs. trucks or containers. I'm sure there is some advantage there too, but not as dramatic - maybe by only a factor of 2 or 3 instead ?
- Paul North.
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Paul_D_North_Jr Most of you know I'm a big (maybe the biggest ? ) John Kneiling fan - he was famous (notorious ?) for advocating essentially that all freight should go into either bulk unit trains or containers.
Most of you know I'm a big (maybe the biggest ? ) John Kneiling fan - he was famous (notorious ?) for advocating essentially that all freight should go into either bulk unit trains or containers.
My father in law gave me a book he picked up when he was a lad, STEEL TRAILS, the Epic of the Railroads By Martin Stevers (C 1933). The book went into great detail about the business of running the railroads, with interesting vignettes of life prior to computers. One of the main points of the book was that railroads excelled when engaged in mass transportation, rather than retail transportation. While carload lots aren't as cost effective as trainload lots, they're still more cost effective than LCL.
Given proper infrastrcture, boxcars are just fine for handling cargo.
- Erik
P.S. Where's the Spell Czech when I need it...
What I forgot to mention was that JGK also advocated the demise of 'loose car' railroading as it was then performed. The main reason was the high costs of the 'retail' transportation aspect of it - typically, the 'first/ last mile' component with a peddler or local switching train and a full 5-man crew plus caboose, etc. and some of that has indeed happened - for example, 2 man-crews, remote control, no caboose, denser grouping of industries, multiple-car deliveries instead of just single cars, RFID car tracking, etc.
These changes reinforce the validity of the maxim from greyhounds above - it's how the tools are used that matters.
Two points:
1. About 15 years ago I had a discussion with a major consumer company who ordered decals from me for railcars. I asked him "what kind of cars". He replied boxcars and they were aggressively purchasing such cars as they were extremely efficient for their product.
2. Today on the Chesterton In webcam, the eastbound 10R run thru from BNSF had a block of 25 boxcars, almost all the same size. I have asked the question on another thread...could this be wine? All cars were larger than the typical 60 ft paper cars.
3. A great site is seeing the UP switch the Chicago Tribune plant in the north loop bringing in boxcars.
Ed
Several of the Trains issues from 1H1968 had articles by JGK on the problems of loose car railroading, one being that the cars were averaging 1 t 2 MPH in service (i.e. spent most of their time standing still). The was the poor capital utilization argument against loose car railroading, which was in addition to the high labor cost.
My point in bringing up the Stevers book is that concerns about loose car railroading preceded JGK. FWIW, I dod have a copy of Integral Train Systems in my library.
Agree wholeheartedly about the use of tols making a big difference.
erikem Paul_D_North_Jr Most of you know I'm a big (maybe the biggest ? ) John Kneiling fan - he was famous (notorious ?) for advocating essentially that all freight should go into either bulk unit trains or containers. My father in law gave me a book he picked up when he was a lad, STEEL TRAILS, the Epic of the Railroads By Martin Stevers (C 1933). The book went into great detail about the business of running the railroads, with interesting vignettes of life prior to computers. One of the main points of the book was that railroads excelled when engaged in mass transportation, rather than retail transportation. While carload lots aren't as cost effective as trainload lots, they're still more cost effective than LCL. Given proper infrastrcture, boxcars are just fine for handling cargo. - Erik P.S. Where's the Spell Czech when I need it...
P.P.S. -- IT coders please note that the 'smiley' feature does not work correctly in quoted text.
OK, so why did Proctor & Gamble's huge paper product distribution center in east Green Bay not include direct rail service for boxcars as part of its design, and why don't Walmart's centers include them also? As I understand it, Walmart is the paragon of distribution efficiency. Are they missing a bet?
Can't answer the P&G part, but within the last 10 days I had a phone conversation with a marketing guy for an eastern regional/ short-line about the Wal-Mart distribution center #6080 in the Tobyhanna/ Mt. Pocono area of NorthEastern Pennsylvania, which abuts his track ( N 41 9.747' W 75 24.173' ). He said that when it was built, the RR offered to install a siding - no interest on Wal-Mart's part, though. No deep insights as to why not, either - the terrain was (and is) pretty good for such a sidetrack, too. The truck volume seems to be in the range of 200 - 300 per day, so you'd think someone would take a look at it . . .
One thought that occurs to me is that a rail siding along a building takes up a lot of space that they'd probably rather be able to use for truck docks. There are ways to do that, of course - tracks in paving, and boxcar doors and canvas covers every 60 ft. or so with the regular truck docks and levelers between, but that's still a complication and some loss of truck capacity. Also, imagine what happens when the train shows up and there's still 1 - or many trucks - at the docks waiting to finish loading/ unloading. The train has to wait until they're all cleared, and no loading/ unloading of the trucks can occur until the train is done and gone, etc.
A clever or energetic person could probably figure out a way to integrate or manage it all, but they seem to be in short supply these days.
Walmart, from what I read a while back, is obsessed with timing. The truck is given a time that he is expected to arrive, and he can be something like 1/2 hour early or one hour late, (I don't remember the exact time window.) If he doesn't make that window, it's curtains for him. They obviously don't want their loading docks tied up. so the railcar scene is something that doesn't fit in with their philosophy. There is a Walmart distribution center a few miles from here, and I frequently see trucks stopped in vacant lots or on the side of the highway apparently waiting for their time.
My stepson worked there for a short time, and to me it sounded like the the definition of a sweat shop: constant running to move merchandise.
_____________
"A stranger's just a friend you ain't met yet." --- Dave Gardner
To Paul North;
And some of the others who responded about Wal-Mart D.C.'s and their receiving habits... Admittedly it has been some time since I had anything to do with Inbounds to their facilities, and so outbounds, as well. Then you were 'scolded', and quickly rescheduled. That does not happen too often.
Their problem as I see it, is similar to many food related and store merchandise distributors.
Mostly, everything they(The Dristribution Whse) get(s) has to be hand unloaded, and restacked on their pallets, to their specs.
'Driver unload' is their key.. ( The Trucking Company hires Wal*Mart approved 'lumpers, or the Trucking Company compensates their driver for the unload.( This is the rub, for the longest time, a driver's compensation to unload was ALWAYS less than what the 'Lumpers' demanded. So the driver had to pony up the difference. ( This has led to some explosive confrontations on docks around the country.)
I would defer to some of the other Posters here, who are actively into the day to day OTR Delivery business.
From the first time I was inbound to a Wal*Mard D.C. they insisted on a delivery within a very, tight 'window'.. miss that 'window', and you were forced out of their property, to await another re-appointed delivery scheduled appointment. No excuses, you missed their time, and you cooled your heels waiting for another 'window'- unless, they needed it really badly.
Trucking Companies that have negotiated with WalMart to drop trailers and have WalMart lumpers unload, pay a 'premium for this priviledge. Companies that deliver containers also fit into this problem. They may have their own employed Lumper Companies that work at WalMart, and just unload their own inbounds to WalMart specs. Otherwise a road driver is tied up at WalMart Docks unloading their company inbounds...not a thing that goes gently with OTR Drivers !
If WalMart had rail docks,thenWal Mart would have 'to jump through the hoops' they have created for other carriers, to unload their own inbound merchandise (that means: WM is responsibe for wages and benefits to those employees, engaged in those activities). With the lumper unload services, WM ducks all those costs and responsibilites for benefits, and compensation costs, not to mention liabilities...
Ultimately, the receiver is able to dodge some liability and employee compensation costs, while passing those cost to the Transportation side of their Distribution inbound operations.. and the Transportaton Industry takes another hit... and that is probably still how " the hog ate the turnip." IMHO
I would hope that Ulrich or maybe Randy V. can respond...
I'd bet things have not changed too much since I retired.
Ok, I'm off my Soapbox.
I've always kept tabs on who's loading what into boxcars wherever I can, particularly the more unusual loads. So, in the midwest (MN and surrounding areas) I've seen recently - boxcars at the brewery in LaCrosse, at a brick manufacturer south of Sioux City, at area canneries like Rochester, Sleepy Eye & Arlington, MN, at Brown Printing in Waseca, occasionally at the flour mill in Mankato, MN, and countless others in the Twin Cities.
But going back to the 80s, growing up in Mankato, we had more - a Budweiser distributor, salt coming in for roads in the winter, cubes of scrap metal, and then coming through on trains were loads of wood chips heading to Wisconsin mills. So, it seems that some of the smaller users have been dumped or changed to some other car or mode, but some continue on....
Boxcars haul a variety of products. Most 50' boxcars are used to haul paper products of which can be printing paper, pulpboard or scrap paper. They also haul lumber, brick, aluminum and copper wire. Most companies nowadays prefer the 100 ton cars over the 70 ton cars. Customers like to use Railroads to haul the heavy stuff as they can get three to four truck loads in one car and generally ship it for about the same cost as one truck would charge. The high cube 60' boxcars are often used to haul lighter weight products like where the extra space comes in handy. This might be food grade products like canned goods and cereal. But they can also be used to haul plywood and particle board. Some are also used to transport paper and tires. GM uses 60' boxcars to haul auto parts. The large 86' boxcars are used by Ford and Chrysler to haul auto parts. They also are used to haul appliances like washers, dryers, refrigerators and dishwashers.
Tim G
Norfolk Southern Locomotive Engineer
Clearwater paper just built a plant near me and built two tracks to load and unload boxcars,about twenty miles from that Horsehead metals built a large plant and i know it is not boxcars they get lots of tank cars and covered hoppers and that is on CSX.
Russell
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