What would you do?

[MP173]

As you may know, I am becoming obsessed with CN's operations here in Northwest Indiana, more particularly the operating of coal trains on "the hill" here in Valparaiso. At least 4 trains have stalled the last few days, and lo and behold yet another has a broken knuckle. This is the second since Wednesday nite that I know of, perhaps more.

First, is it common to have this many broken knuckles? I dont think so, but perhaps it is.

Second, listening in on the scanner, they did assign a third engine on today's train (CN 754).

Prior, there have been 2 big UP's with 126 cars, 17,500 tons. Probably 4000hp per locomotive. Now with the third, it has to be over 10,000, probably 12,000hp.

Today's train encountered wet rail and the wheels started slipping and the engines began "lurching" with the slack running in and out. The result was a broken knuckle and yet another delay on a busy mainline.

Is this just a bad stretch of luck? or is there a bigger problem? Is 17,500 tons too much weight for these mighty Indiana grades? According to Saxman last week this is a .88% grade, with issues of curves and an area that gets very little sunlight on the rails and thus is always wet. What does a railroad do in these situations? CN or UP or both did address the power situation and put an extra unit on. Is it an issue of power placement?

What are you opinions as to how these trains should be operated.

ed

[Anonymous]

I'd call batman

[Junctionfan]

I don't know why they don't use power at the front and at the back then if they are having such problems.

I've seen some mighty long trains climb the grade from Bayview to Copetown and I don't recall ever hearing any problems. The grade is at least 1%.

[rrnut282]

I was up there a month ago and nothing happened. I miss all the fun[:(!]

[Anonymous]

I'm inclined to agree with Mark. The likely culprit is train handling by some engineers new to the hill or just plain new. I remember well when the guys at Buffalo terminal took over some of the west end pools. Most of us had been running Attica hill since we were new hires and cut our teeth with guys who knew it well and learned the proper habits from them. Within a week of the Buffalo guys taking over there were several knuckles pulled on the hill. Many of the engineers involved even had a few whiskers. Just new territory to them I guess. Hard to learn it on just a couple of qualifying trips...

LC

[MP173]

I went up and watched the action on Wednsday ( the first 752 of that day to stall) and the engineer chatted with me. He has 28.5 years on the South Bend Sub. I dont think it is inexperience, but who am I to know?

ed

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by rrnut282

I was up there a month ago and nothing happened. I miss all the fun[:(!]

Don't feel bad......It happens to me alot![:(].

[CSXrules4eva]

It sounds like CN in this situation needs some help. They most deffanitly shouldn't underpower trains when it comes to slippery and/ or steep grades. No one whats their train to stall ( Heaven Forbid) and hold up traffic. I think they can solve their problems by adding a middle engine and a trainling engine. CP does this on the Kicking Horse Pass and it seems to work fine. They learned from their mistakes in the past in dealing w/ steep, snowey, and slippery grades. Also, I'm going to take sides w/ Mark here, some of these incdents happened because of plain old fashoned human error.

[Junctionfan]

I would think 3 SD40s or SD60s would do on the front end and maybe one on the end. Does this train use CN's bethgons?

[Anonymous]

I agree with Junctionfan - some locos in the front and a push from the back end. But how about this idea for steep grades - how about some sort of flat steel bar with teeth in it layed down and fastened in the center of the track? Then have special gears on locos which could be drawn down and lock in. More hp would be used in this coal drag. Hp is lost each time wheels slip.

[Anonymous]

So what have you been smokin' that makes us hilarious? ;)

[mvlandsw]

Does the track get little sunshine because of trees along the right of way? This is the time for the leaves to fall and they are very slippery under the wheels.

[Anonymous]

Nothin' a pinch of Morton salt (or is it sand) that couldn't fix the leaf problem. FULL STEAM AHEAD! "TOOT TOOT!" [:o)]

[Anonymous]

Not sure about the states, but here in Canada, CN does not use remote loco's anywhere.

All power is always on the head end.

[MP173]

To answer a few questions....

1. These are DETX hopper cars.
2. The origin of the coal is probably Powder River. The UP trains seem to stall or break, while the BN trains dont.
3. There is an area in which the grade is the steepest and it is in a cut area surrounded by trees....very little sunlight reaches the track, particularly this time of year.
5. The grade is only about 4 to 5 miles in length, but is restricted at the base with a 40mph limit over the NS tracks at Wayne crossing.

It seems to me the increase in cars from 115 to 126 has triggered a much higher rate of stalling/breaking. Normally, what kind of compensation does a railroad receive for an extra 11 cars?

Would it be feasible to run this train only with a following train and then use the power from the following train to assist up the hill? Could that be done in tandem (with the second train still on it's train) or would the power leave it's train at the western point, push up the hill, then come back to retrieve and go?

It seems to me that would be the sensible route at this time.

What does it cost to shut down a mainline for 3 hours? $1000/ hour? or more?

ed

[MP173]

Well, here we go again...yet another stall.

Just heard the 766 stalled on the hill.

At what point does this coal traffic become unprofitable?

ed

[Anonymous]

rrnut 282 thinks watching trains stall and break-in-two is fun? try being out in the middle of nowhere in the dead of night by yourself trying to change knuckle. I have and it is not even close to fun. this is the part of rr work that simply work, nothing else and it at times like that you ask yourself why did I ever make this career change.

[Anonymous]

Just give it more gas and push it up the dang hill already!!! Forget all the tenths of percentages grades and stuff. Do we all really have to mamby pamby this? get me in the loco and guaranteed it gets up the grade AND without a slide rule.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP173

To answer a few questions....

1. These are DETX hopper cars.
2. The origin of the coal is probably Powder River. The UP trains seem to stall or break, while the BN trains dont.
3. There is an area in which the grade is the steepest and it is in a cut area surrounded by trees....very little sunlight reaches the track, particularly this time of year.
5. The grade is only about 4 to 5 miles in length, but is restricted at the base with a 40mph limit over the NS tracks at Wayne crossing.

It seems to me the increase in cars from 115 to 126 has triggered a much higher rate of stalling/breaking. Normally, what kind of compensation does a railroad receive for an extra 11 cars?

Would it be feasible to run this train only with a following train and then use the power from the following train to assist up the hill? Could that be done in tandem (with the second train still on it's train) or would the power leave it's train at the western point, push up the hill, then come back to retrieve and go?

It seems to me that would be the sensible route at this time.

What does it cost to shut down a mainline for 3 hours? $1000/ hour? or more?

ed

To answer #2,No comment! But very true.

[PNWRMNM]

Chess

Sorry to tell you this, but physics always trumps B. S.

Mac

[Sterling1]

Why dont they use two up front and splice on or two in the middle?!! Or why don't they train their workers better on how to deal with such trains on any grade?!!
If I were at the helm I'd want that arrangement or if that's not possible, one inthe rear

[Anonymous]

The problem is probably more complex than we think. Its sounds easy to just add an additional loco or two to make sure the train gets up the hill. But the problem comes when those two additional locos have to come from another train. Then that train will be delayed, and so on and so on.
Railroads make their money by trying to keep everything running all of the time. It would be great to have a few locos on standby in the yard, but at 1-2million dollars apiece, that starts to add up quickly.
This is why railroads are so screwed up right now. They like to do just enough to make everything work. One little problem like this, and it all goes to hell. And this is not just this particular RR either. All of them do this to some degree or another.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by PNWRMNM

Chess

Sorry to tell you this, but physics always trumps B. S.

Mac

I forgot to tell ya I have rocket boosters. Now there's physics at work! [:p]

[Anonymous]

Watching "CSX Mountain Sub" video right now. The opening shows locos at the front and 2 helpers on the back end of a coal drag up a steep grade on the former B&O Mountain Sub. So anyone who found extra power at the back laughable can watch the video for himself, call CSX, and tell them they're doing it all wrong.

[BaltACD]

Helper Power and Helper Crews cost money.

Ideally on the Mountain SD helpers are able to get two or more shoves per shift that they are called. There are multiple helper districts on the Mountain SD which makes it a high cost subdivision to operate. The volume of coal, howerver, make the additional costs worthwile.

In this instance, I suspect that the CN does not consider their terriroty in Indinana as helper terriroty.....in fact no grades less than 1% are routinely considered helper territory.

[Junctionfan]

How come than do I see a UP coal train with 1 or 2 engines in the front and one at the back going through Rochelle? Isn't it DPU?

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by chessking

QUOTE: Originally posted by PNWRMNM

Chess

Sorry to tell you this, but physics always trumps B. S.

Mac

I forgot to tell ya I have rocket boosters. Now there's physics at work! [:p]

Terry-

Are you going to come back as "Fizz Ickes" next go??

LC

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by M.W. Hemphill

Yes, you're seeing a DPU train, Andrew. Why do you ask?

Couldn't CN just to this for this train?

[Junctionfan]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BaltACD

Helper Power and Helper Crews cost money.

Ideally on the Mountain SD helpers are able to get two or more shoves per shift that they are called. There are multiple helper districts on the Mountain SD which makes it a high cost subdivision to operate. The volume of coal, howerver, make the additional costs worthwile.

In this instance, I suspect that the CN does not consider their terriroty in Indinana as helper terriroty.....in fact no grades less than 1% are routinely considered helper territory.

If DPU might help, maybe they should do it. I don't think it will cost extra money on crews. If they distribute the power to both back and front and not just all on the front, that won't be adding crews either. 126 cars being pulled by a couple of Dash 9s isn't a big deal to the engines just the couplers so one on the front and one at the back pushing should reduce the coupler pull by 50%. like wise if you have 2 at the back and 1 at the front, a higher reduction in pull I would think.

[Randy Stahl]

Seems like a waste to install DP on the fleet just for 1or 2 trouble spots, or drag another unit along just so it can work for 15 minutes. What would I do ? Blame the mechanical dept.
Randy