Was there much Disparity/Difference in pay between the engineer driving the train, and the conductor (is that the term...conductor.?) that was in the caboose.?
I always thought that was the best job on a train...sitting "comfortably" in the caboose, doing some paper work, and enjoying the ride and scenery.
WAS the caboose a Good/Desirable job ... or was that a job a guy hoped to be promoted From.?
Thank You
Unlike today, engineer and conductor were two different career paths, and engineer and conductor were at the top of those paths, unless one went into management. Others will have to speak to how much crossover there was.
I'd opine that the crew of a caboose on a through train (no intermediate work) might have had it a bit cushy, but the crew of a train with work to do (ie, locals, way freights, or whatever they might be called) hardly lazed the day away in their cozy little cabin.
I've heard it opined that the conductor of a local freight might walk the length of his division in the course of a tour of duty. The brakemen were hardly exempt from that.
Riding in a caboose could be dangerous (one reason they're gone, among many). Slack action often meant that the caboose might go from zero to whatever instantaneously, and vice versa.
Whoever was riding in the cupola (or bay window) was doing a lot more than enjoying the scenery. They had to watch for problems with the train, and keep their nose alert for the telltale smell of a hotbox.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Good Info...Thanks.
Would be very interesting to hear from any of you guys that know more.
Any links to info about work duties of a conductor during the "caboose era" would also be welcome.
Video links would be ultra awesome.!
Conductors duties today are nominally the same as they were in the days of the caboose, except he no longer has a brakeman or flagman to supervise and the location of his 'office' has changed and is better riding. He is still in charge of the paperwork concerning the train - pick ups and set offs and completing whatever is necessary either on paper or in the computer system of the carrier. He is also responsible for inspecting the train for any mechanical issues that may present themselves - Defect detector activation, undesired emergency brake application and making minor mechanical repairs to get the train moving again.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
The conductor gets the pleasure of braving hostile elements when cars need to be lifted or dropped, switches thrown, or do a three mile hike inspecting his train after an unexpected loss of air. Sometimes he is lucky enough to have a brakeman to share that work. Not too bad on a warm sunny day, but at 0300 in the middle of the night in torrential rain, or a howling blizzard at -20F, it can be downright miserable. Meanwhile the engineer can usually remain in his warm(ish) and dry cab.
tree68 Riding in a caboose could be dangerous (one reason they're gone, among many). Slack action often meant that the caboose might go from zero to whatever instantaneously, and vice versa.
Slack action was a real hazard. I've seen several safety rule books that mandated the wearing of seat belts while riding in the caboose, esepcially in the cupola.
I've had the pleasure of traveling the length of a cab without touching the floor, when the idiot on the headend decided to make a quick stop with 110 cars at 10mph. Great fun!
But on the plus side, what a view on a cold, clear night, as you watch the headlight start around a curve a mile ahead, followed by the long dark snake of the train! Get that coal stove glowing orange and crack the window, just try to stay awake!
That was all years ago. I've long since moved to the right side of the cab, the caboose is long gone. But, I'll never forget those trips.
The Railroad Caboose by William F. Knapke with Freeman Hubbard was published around 1967 but is still a good source of caboose information. It can be found in many libraries.
There have been several interesting discussions about cabooses and their use in the Prototype Information for the Modeller area of the Model Railroader Forums.
All Of You Guys...Thank You
I probably have (like most people) a romanticized idea of railroading.
After all...that is what draws most of us to trains in the first place. The idea of going some where different...of being places you can only get to on tacks...far away and beautiful scenes of rivers, mountains and canyons.
No doubt the caboose had its pitfalls.
But when I imagine driving a steam train...sitting astride a giant furnace in the summer heat...or in the winter, when one side of you was freezing, and the other side was facing however hot those things got. And the noise.!
No doubt the switch to DE was a much safer, and quieter ride for all concerned.I guess lots of jobs disappeared along with the steam.......
Thanks Again
Canada and the United States were among the very last to get rid of the caboose. European railroads got rid of theirs over 80 years ago.
I happen to have Rules and Rates of Pay for both engineers and conductor/Brakemen (I collect such things) for the Rock Island, effective August 12, 1966.
These are the base rate (basic 100 mile or less day) for each craft. If an employee went to work, they will at least make the basic rate.
Engineer (with a fireman) $25.15 to $28.51 depending on weight on the drivers.
Engineer (without a fireman) $28.55 to $31.91, again depending on engine weight.
Sorry, I don't have the rates for firemen.
Conductors (thru freight rate) $23.06 to $24.36 depending on number of cars in the train.
Conductors (local freight rate) $23.62 to $24.92, again depending on car count.
Brakemen (thru freight rate) $20.83 to $22.13 depending on car count.
Brakemen (local freight rate) $21.26 to $22.56 depending on car count.
That should give a glimpse of the pay differences between the train crew members. Although the rates have changed since then, the engineer (all things being equal) makes a little more than the conductor. Who makes a little more than a brakeman, if the train has one. (Some places still require a brakeman to be used on local freights or if a train has a certain number of scheduled work events.)
Jeff
On the subject of cabeese, check out the current Google Earth view of the BNSF lead to the borax plant near Boron CA, 34°59'58.92" N 117°39'55.71" W.
Jeff, are those daily rates? Back about a year ago I met a retired engineer who got his start with Erie Lackawanna back in 1965. He stated that his start pay was $20.00 a day as a brakeman. He had his son with him (who is now an engineer with CSX) and stated that his son's current hourly rate is better than what he was making for an entire day in the 1960s!
Ulrich Jeff, are those daily rates? Back about a year ago I met a retired engineer who got his start with Erie Lackawanna back in 1965. He stated that his start pay was $20.00 a day as a brakeman. He had his son with him (who is now an engineer with CSX) and stated that his son's current hourly rate is better than what he was making for an entire day in the 1960s!
Not unusual - and those were period mid 60's rates - each carrier could have been a few cents different in one direction or the other.
My Operators rate in 1965 was $2.933/hour or 23.464 per day - the carrier carried the fractions and rounded them on pay day.
Ulrich Jeff, are those daily rates? Back about a year ago I met a retired engineer who ... stated that his son's current hourly rate is better than what he was making for an entire day in the 1960s!
Jeff, are those daily rates? Back about a year ago I met a retired engineer who ... stated that his son's current hourly rate is better than what he was making for an entire day in the 1960s!
But let us not forget that this was in the Bretton Woods era when a dollar was tied to 1/35 of an ounce of gold. Adjust for that one factor alone 'today' and note what the effective rate of pay is. And that's before making allowance for a number of inflationary periods...
An on-line inflation calculator shows that the $25.15 rate would equal $178.18 in 2013 dollars.
For sake of argument, using an eight hour day, that's $22.27 an hour. Using a standard 2028 hour year yields $45,168.63 per year.
There's a lot of variables to consider, but this gives one a starting point for a comparison.
tree68 An on-line inflation calculator shows that the $25.15 rate would equal $178.18 in 2013 dollars. For sake of argument, using an eight hour day, that's $22.27 an hour. Using a standard 2028 hour year yields $45,168.63 per year. There's a lot of variables to consider, but this gives one a starting point for a comparison.
T&E personnel on Class 1's today are easily pushing 6 figures for their annual compensation; as in railroading there is no 'standard' 2028 hour year for T&E personnel.
Man...that does not sound right at all. I would say $3.50/hour in 1965 would be much closer to 35-40 bux an hour in 2014 ... in real dollars.
Regardless...they were doing pretty good to make 3.00-3.50 back then.
Some very interesting info in this thread...the title of that Caboose book is great. I ordered a used copy for 10 bux.
When I started as a brakeman on the Southern Railway in 1977, a brakeman made $51.62 for a 100 mile day in local freight service. I think thru freight rates were $48 and change. Seemed like an awful lot of money, back then!
rfpjohn When I started as a brakeman on the Southern Railway in 1977, a brakeman made $51.62 for a 100 mile day in local freight service. I think thru freight rates were $48 and change. Seemed like an awful lot of money, back then!
http://www.srha.net/
Wow...they were tangled up with A Lot of other Railroads...but I guess, eventually, they all were. Railroad monopolies seem to be gobbling up the food chain in pretty big bites.
It's important to understand that in 'the old days' you had two entirely different crews in effect, working together on the train. At a minimum, you had four men on the train: an Engineer and Fireman in the engine, and a Brakeman and Conductor in the caboose. You could also have another brakeman in the engine (or in the 'doghouse' on the tender deck); some states required a Flagman in the caboose also.
Brakemen over time could be promoted to Conductor, and Firemen could be promoted to Engineer. Brakemen and Conductors were in a different union than Engineers and Firemen, and had different seniority rosters.
The Conductor was the 'captain' or commander of the train.
Generally the two groups didn't socialize that much. Engineers and Firemen generally ate at a local beanery, and slept in a hotel or boarding house on a layover. Conductors and Brakemen generally slept in the caboose, and cooked their own meals onboard.
As I understood the crewing assignments, the brakeman on the rear end served as a flagman when it was necessary to go back and flag a following train. Also, having only the engine crew on the engine was extremely rare until comparatively recently (40 or so years ago); the headend brakeman had the responsibility of lining the switches at the headend. Some states required a third brakeman if the train were more than a certain number of cars in length--apparently stemming from the days when all the brakes had to be set by hand.
The only time I rode a freight for any distance, the entire crew--engineer, conductor, and brakeman sat in the cab, even though there was a caboose in the consist; they brought a folding chair in for me to sit on. The entire trip (20 miles down and 20 miles back) took four hours running time because of the track. I trusted the engineer.
Johnny
wjstix It's important to understand that in 'the old days' you had two entirely different crews in effect, working together on the train. At a minimum, you had four men on the train: an Engineer and Fireman in the engine, and a Brakeman and Conductor in the caboose. You could also have another brakeman in the engine (or in the 'doghouse' on the tender deck); some states required a Flagman in the caboose also. Brakemen over time could be promoted to Conductor, and Firemen could be promoted to Engineer. Brakemen and Conductors were in a different union than Engineers and Firemen, and had different seniority rosters. The Conductor was the 'captain' or commander of the train. Generally the two groups didn't socialize that much. Engineers and Firemen generally ate at a local beanery, and slept in a hotel or boarding house on a layover. Conductors and Brakemen generally slept in the caboose, and cooked their own meals onboard.
In many places the 2 union groups didn't socialize. For example at away terminals the Engine service and train service people didn't even stay in the same bunkhouse. There was a bit of class distinction.
Randy, as you say, "In many places...." These men whom I knew drove seventy miles together to go to work, and then drove seventy miles together to go back home.
JEFFHERGERT WROTE THE FOLLOWING POST AT MON, SEP 22 2014 8:45 PM:
So these rates were well into the diesel era. Why would it make a difference how much weight was on the drivers? Does this mean an engineer running a train with a SD7 (309,000 lbs) on the head end would get paid more then someone running a GP9 (248,000 lbs)? It seems like a control stand is a control stand regardless of the locomotive weight - they (mostly) all have eight notches, a reverser, an independent brake and a train brake. Do such tiers exist today in pay rates?
Deggesty Randy, as you say, "In many places...." These men whom I knew drove seventy miles together to go to work, and then drove seventy miles together to go back home.
Johnny, it sounds like the crew you knew were on a regular job, like a local freight. It seemed, and still does, that those who work regularly together have a better bond then those who don't. I've noticed that same thing at different terminals. For the most part, guys working out of smaller terminals (by number of assigned TE&Y employees) are closer, more tight knit, than at larger ones. My home terminal has a couple hundred guys working out of it. I can go months without seeing someone because we are on "opposite sides" of the boards.
Until they started pooling cabooses, they were assigned to a conductor. The trainmen used it as their away from home lodgings. The engine crew, even way back when engines were also assigned, had to find lodging somewhere else. Engines don't have bunks.
Randy Stahl In many places the 2 union groups didn't socialize. For example at away terminals the Engine service and train service people didn't even stay in the same bunkhouse. There was a bit of class distinction.
The funny thing about us humans is that no matter what group we are part of, someone has to "be above" the others (even when no one really has to). This may cause problems as more and more of us work in isolation. Maybe that's due to our primal competitive nature where even a small made up class distinction is a "win".
John Urtz JEFFHERGERT WROTE THE FOLLOWING POST AT MON, SEP 22 2014 8:45 PM: I happen to have Rules and Rates of Pay for both engineers and conductor/Brakemen (I collect such things) for the Rock Island, effective August 12, 1966. These are the base rate (basic 100 mile or less day) for each craft. If an employee went to work, they will at least make the basic rate. Engineer (with a fireman) $25.15 to $28.51 depending on weight on the drivers. Engineer (without a fireman) $28.55 to $31.91, again depending on engine weight. So these rates were well into the diesel era. Why would it make a difference how much weight was on the drivers? Does this mean an engineer running a train with a SD7 (309,000 lbs) on the head end would get paid more then someone running a GP9 (248,000 lbs)? It seems like a control stand is a control stand regardless of the locomotive weight - they (mostly) all have eight notches, a reverser, an independent brake and a train brake. Do such tiers exist today in pay rates?
It's the total weight of all engines, working or not that the engineer is responsible for, in the consist. An engineer handling 5 engines will make a higher rate than one handling 2 similar engines.
Depending on how pay is calculated at specific locations, the weight for engineers and the maximum number of cars handled for conductors/brakemen still apply. Some places have gone to "streamlined" methods, such as trip rates. Where the old, traditional method is still used the tiers still apply.
My current pool assignment run pays a trip rate. Even though the weight on drivers no longer affects me (when calculating the trip rate, all things during the checking period such as weights were averaged out to determine the trip rate) it still shows up on my time slip.
Now I know why its hard to get a wave from a train with only one engine...several engines equals higher pay equals happier crew who are more apt to wave at fans.
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