EuclidI am not sure I understand the ignore button. I take it that the point is that anybody who does not like posts in a thread can simply have them ghosted out and never see them. So then the troublemakers can just fill up a thread with nonsense, and it will become invisible to anyone who cared about the discussion.
Or it could go the other way - posters could fill up the thread with with fact-based posts and opinions and the nonsense posts wouldn't be seen.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
There are two ignore buttons I've seen on other forum software. One is "Ignore this user", the other is "Ignore this thread".
Norm
Why not just ignore the post/user instead of the need to press a button to do so? Sorry, I'm belabouring the point, I know.
When some of you gentle easily offended souls go to the supermarket and some little kid shouts an obscenity, what do you do? You ignore it (or if you're like me you quietly laugh at the discomfiture of the child's parent). You're going to be ok... your ears will recover. And so it is here.. not everyone is going to agree with you.. not every post is a learning moment.. some (like the Amtrak coffee thread) was downright hilarious.. humour has value too.
dehusmanYou can hear everybody talking but you're only getting half the conversations.
Perhaps it's a little more like this? ...
I can't imagine ANY effective method of blanking out 'viewing unpleasant posts' that wouldn't produce some sense that conversations are occurring but you're not hearing all of them ... that is precisely what a proper ignore button would be doing, isn't it? (One note is that you'll probably still see 'ignored' material that someone else has quoted, just as we currently see the 'last post' updated with the date and time of a 'banned' poster even though the post itself never makes it to the thread.)
I'm actually more with Schlimm on this one: we should have the patience to tolerate other points of view, the discipline to keep actual disagreements strictly on PM until resolved, and the option to call for the gendarmes if not. What we should NOT have is a tendency to go whining to the mods over any little perceived slight ... or making fun of someone who does that. Let alone the tendency to mistake a sinner for their sin, and start an ad hominem parade. In other words, courtesy and maturity should go a very, very long way toward making things work ... especially if those are the things being 'moderated for'.
Exactly overmod...we're out of diapers and past the point of needing buttons and levers in place of exercising personal judgement.
There really should not be all this drama over something as innocuous as an "IGNORE" button.
"IGNORE" is a simple concept: If I (or any other poster) do not want to see the posts of a particular participant in a thread...one touch of a button, and problem solved.
Bear in mind that "IGNORE" usually works on a thread by thread basis. What it is not designed to do is put up a blanket screening of an individual forever. Additionally, "IGNORE" starts to work at the time the user engages it. so if there were previous posts made by a individual, those posts stay. It is simply the subsequent posts that the user will not see.
So as I mentioned earlier, consideration should be given to the development of both an "IGNORE" and a 'REPORT" button.
cx500 My chief complaint, and there is no easy answer, is that some threads which started out interesting and instructive degenerated into a tedious morass, of hypothetical theories based mostly on ignorance. It is easy enough to just ignore any postings by that (or those) specific individuals, but I fear that other people with less knowledge of railroading may be misled. Attempts in the past by a number of knowledgeable railroaders on this forum to correct the gabble were, and are, mostly just buried by more of the same. I'd not be surprised if some lost their temper and flamed at the foolishness. Was that what the veiled discussion was about several months back? John Sutherland
My chief complaint, and there is no easy answer, is that some threads which started out interesting and instructive degenerated into a tedious morass, of hypothetical theories based mostly on ignorance. It is easy enough to just ignore any postings by that (or those) specific individuals, but I fear that other people with less knowledge of railroading may be misled.
Attempts in the past by a number of knowledgeable railroaders on this forum to correct the gabble were, and are, mostly just buried by more of the same. I'd not be surprised if some lost their temper and flamed at the foolishness. Was that what the veiled discussion was about several months back?
John Sutherland
John: Thank you for your excellent post. This is exactly what we have been struggling with here for quite some time.
Norm48327 cx500 My chief complaint, and there is no easy answer, is that some threads which started out interesting and instructive degenerated into a tedious morass, of hypothetical theories based mostly on ignorance. It is easy enough to just ignore any postings by that (or those) specific individuals, but I fear that other people with less knowledge of railroading may be misled. Attempts in the past by a number of knowledgeable railroaders on this forum to correct the gabble were, and are, mostly just buried by more of the same. I'd not be surprised if some lost their temper and flamed at the foolishness. Was that what the veiled discussion was about several months back? John Sutherland You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Theories don't cut it; results do, and there is a total lack of practicality in some of those theories. When confronted with the facts, the poster takes offense even the experienced people may have tried the idea in the past and found it to be unworkable. I certainly can't blame the railroaders for getting frustrated when they are repeatedly told they don't know what they are talking about.
You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Theories don't cut it; results do, and there is a total lack of practicality in some of those theories. When confronted with the facts, the poster takes offense even the experienced people may have tried the idea in the past and found it to be unworkable. I certainly can't blame the railroaders for getting frustrated when they are repeatedly told they don't know what they are talking about.
Well said Norm!!!
BaltACD schlimm Ulrich Why not just ignore what you don't want to read? what's up with all the need for buttons? Exactly. Why do some folks need a button or moderators to block certain posts, threads or posters for them? Exercising one's own discretion as to what to read should suffice for oneself, if that is all it is really about. That has worked so well to date; especially among those that have no discretion only a sense of rightesnous.
schlimm Ulrich Why not just ignore what you don't want to read? what's up with all the need for buttons? Exactly. Why do some folks need a button or moderators to block certain posts, threads or posters for them? Exercising one's own discretion as to what to read should suffice for oneself, if that is all it is really about.
Ulrich Why not just ignore what you don't want to read? what's up with all the need for buttons?
Why not just ignore what you don't want to read? what's up with all the need for buttons?
That has worked so well to date; especially among those that have no discretion only a sense of rightesnous.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Murray Norm48327 cx500 My chief complaint, and there is no easy answer, is that some threads which started out interesting and instructive degenerated into a tedious morass, of hypothetical theories based mostly on ignorance. It is easy enough to just ignore any postings by that (or those) specific individuals, but I fear that other people with less knowledge of railroading may be misled. Attempts in the past by a number of knowledgeable railroaders on this forum to correct the gabble were, and are, mostly just buried by more of the same. I'd not be surprised if some lost their temper and flamed at the foolishness. Was that what the veiled discussion was about several months back? John Sutherland You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Theories don't cut it; results do, and there is a total lack of practicality in some of those theories. When confronted with the facts, the poster takes offense even the experienced people may have tried the idea in the past and found it to be unworkable. I certainly can't blame the railroaders for getting frustrated when they are repeatedly told they don't know what they are talking about. Well said Norm!!!
Well, of course I have no idea what you three are referring to, but what I find is that if I or anybody else suggests a new idea for railroads, it is met with universal rejection here. It is often rather hostile. There is obviously a strong belief that if the railroads are not already doing it, you can bet that it is not a good idea. It would be a natural reaction among railfans. John Keiling was an idea-proposing machine, and he seemed to be despised by at least half the Trains readership. Their extreme defensiveness was on parade. Maybe that was DPM’s point.
But I have never told a railroader that “they don’t know what they are talking about.” In fact most of the critics start out by telling me that I don’t know what I am talking about. At most, I have responded that I did not agree with their criticism of my idea. Often I see that they have misunderstood what I am proposing, so I try to restate it more clearly. From my point of view, some of these critics are way too defensive if I do not simply buckle under to their first objection. They often become angry that I would have the audacity to not accept their condescending put down.
Euclid Murray Norm48327 cx500 My chief complaint, and there is no easy answer, is that some threads which started out interesting and instructive degenerated into a tedious morass, of hypothetical theories based mostly on ignorance. It is easy enough to just ignore any postings by that (or those) specific individuals, but I fear that other people with less knowledge of railroading may be misled. Attempts in the past by a number of knowledgeable railroaders on this forum to correct the gabble were, and are, mostly just buried by more of the same. I'd not be surprised if some lost their temper and flamed at the foolishness. Was that what the veiled discussion was about several months back? John Sutherland You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Theories don't cut it; results do, and there is a total lack of practicality in some of those theories. When confronted with the facts, the poster takes offense even the experienced people may have tried the idea in the past and found it to be unworkable. I certainly can't blame the railroaders for getting frustrated when they are repeatedly told they don't know what they are talking about. Well said Norm!!! Well, of course I have no idea what you three are referring to, but what I find is that if I or anybody else suggests a new idea for railroads, it is met with universal rejection here. It is often rather hostile. There is obviously a strong belief that if the railroads are not already doing it, you can bet that it is not a good idea. It would be a natural reaction among railfans. John Keiling was an idea-proposing machine, and he seemed to be despised by at least half the Trains readership. Their extreme defensiveness was on parade. Maybe that was DPM’s point. But I have never told a railroader that “they don’t know what they are talking about.” In fact most of the critics start out by telling me that I don’t know what I am talking about. At most, I have responded that I did not agree with their criticism of my idea. Often I see that they have misunderstood what I am proposing, so I try to restate it more clearly. From my point of view, some of these critics are way too defensive if I do not simply buckle under to their first objection. They often become angry that I would have the audacity to not accept their condescending put down.
I am probably also one of those who finds some/all of Euclid's posts repetitious and mostly not of interest to me. But he does raise questions, but apparently the professional railroaders believe (and often they are correct, though not always) that they know better. But even if all his posts were nonsense, they may well interest some members and even more non-members. He has the right to expect disagreement, but not being hooted down, mocked, made fun of, etc. Courtesy costs us nothing. Why can't we all just ignore the posts we don't like?
Internet troll types
THE MAJOR BREEDS The Vulgar Troll. These, the crudest of all trolls, make no attempt to hide their species. Often, they make racist comments, or they may post porn and other spam. Vulgars usually confine their comments merely to primitive, profane, off-topic observations. When you log into the Really Profound Serious Philosophical Discussions board and see the post, "I smell my farts," you've spotted the Vulgar Troll. Other species of troll sometimes revert to this form when cornered. The Deceptive or "Classic" Troll. More sophisticated but often easily identified and exposed, the Classic Troll gratifies his ego by pretending to be someone or something he or she is not. Classics make up elaborate stories about themselves, sometimes weaving some amounts of truth into their lies. As a web of lies is difficult to build with consistency, however, Classics are often "outed" by other forumites. When this happens, Classic Trolls have a bag of tricks to which they turn: – Classic Troll Tactic Number 1: If the heat gets too much for you, claim it was all "a joke." In this way you can excuse any and all deceit by claiming people just weren't smart enough to "get" the humor of it. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 2: Create another account, and log on pretending to be someone else, in order to show support for the Troll in Question (TiQ). These puppet accounts sometimes claim to be disinterested third parties. At other times they pretend to be "friends" of the TiQ. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 3: When your lies paint you into a corner, claim that your little brother, or some unnamed friend, has commandeered your account and made you look foolish. This technique can also be applied in claiming that the puppet account(s) you created may not, in fact, be disinterested third parties or friends, but that they are your relatives ("little brother" is most common) only trying to help support you. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 4: When nothing else works, claim that now, finally, you're telling the truth about all the lies you told before. Make up a fresh set of lies, and throw yourself on the mercy of the forumites. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 5: When all else fails, claim to be leaving forever. Trolls who claim they are leaving never do, of course; you can bet that anyone who proclaims, "I'm never coming back here," will most certainly at least check back for responses, and probably will not be able to resist posting again. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 6: Have a tantrum. When all their other tricks are exhausted, Classic Trolls will become angry and start shouting. Often they revert to Vulgar Trolls when this happens. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 7: The insincere apology. Similar to Tactic 4, this involves pretending to repent for one's trolling and is accompanied often by great melodrama. Insincere troll apologists hope that they'll be forgiven if only they act disgusted enough with their own behavior. The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves: – Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you." – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. The Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice – all the while continuing to respond to them. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above. The YerATroll. YerATrolls are those whining forumites who devote a tremendous amount of time and energy complaining about the tremendous amount of time an energy expended by Troll Bashers and Angry Forumites on the practice of troll-hunting. A self-righteous and hypocritical breed, YerATrolls spend all their time pointing fingers at everyone but trolls, petulantly demanding that their opinions be granted the significance the YerATroll believes they deserve. YerATrolls often start threads excoriating others for troll-hunting, all the while completely oblivious to the fact that they're engaging in trolling by picking fights with everyone else. One of the most ill-tempered of troll species, YerATrolls are characterized by a childish need for attention disguised as cynical nobility and pretensions of being "above it all." The Agenda Troll. Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own – often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum. When a flame war erupts on another board, for example, Agenda Trolls will follow their opponents to other forums in order to continue the spat. – Some Agenda Trolls are subject-matter oriented. An Agenda Troll who thinks Self-Defense Instructor X is a fraud, or who feels he has been ripped off or otherwise dealt with unfairly by Instructor X, will visit forums devoted to self-defense and martial arts in order to spread his or her negative opinion of Instructor X. – Agenda Trolls may also be of the milder Spam Agenda subspecies; these are Trolls who join a board specifically to advertise some venture of their own. They are not often troublesome, though their shameless plugging is met with varying degrees of irritation. The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species. When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree – particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views – Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks. A philotroll's bag of rhetorical tricks includes a variety of transparent ploys, such as willfully misinterpreting the opponent's words, committing Straw Man fallacies, accusing his or her opponents of engaging in the very tactics used by the philotroll, and so forth. When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are among the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind. The Affected Profundity Troll. A mutant subspecies of Sophist Trolls, Affected Profundity Trolls post endless pages of pretentious drivel that is intended to appear wise, but which generally makes little sense (if any). Affected Profundity Trolls enjoy asking themselves questions, sometimes answering them and sometimes leaving them hanging, for they believe this looks intelligent and lends an aura of mystery to their incoherent ramblings. Affected Profundity Trolls aspire to become Sophist Trolls, but lack the intelligence necessary to make the leap. The Don King Troll. Related to Affected Profundity Trolls, Don King Trolls spout gibberish in the hope that they'll either bore or confuse to death those with whom they disagree. The average Don King Troll is "a pursuitist who gromulates his adversarial computerists with height defining formulations to the disinterestingest adjunct." The Artistic Troll. A higher species of Classic Troll, Artistic Trolls are intelligent individuals who understand the subtle art of trolling, and who do what they do specifically to make others look foolish. Often employing the techniques of Deceptive Trolls, Artistics will string forumites along until some point in time designated by their own desires, at which point they will reveal the ploy, admit that it was a ploy, and laugh at everyone for being stupid enough to fall for it. Artistic Trolls delight in sowing discord, but do it in a highly developed and fully aware manner. They do not care if they are despised, and do not seek the approval of forum participants. Chaos is their only goal, and preferably chaos with a humorous bent to it. Without a doubt, this is the most dangerous species. The Bitter Troll. Bitter Trolls are a curious cross-species. They can be trolls of any breed in their larval stages, but become Bitters after their previous activities are seen for what they were. What sets these trolls apart from other classifications is their behavior after they have been spotted and labeled as trolls. Angry, frustrated, and resentful about being "outed," the Bitter Troll will wage a campaign of indignant complaints intended to focus attention away from the troll and on whomever is responsible for identifying the creature. Often, a troll mutates into a Bitter just prior to becoming a Vulgar. The Bustr. Bustrs are obsessive Bitters by whom you could practically set your watch. A Bustr never forgets, never forgives, and holds a grudge until the day it dies. Also a variant of Agenda trolls, Bustrs typically move from forum to forum complaining about the objects of their ire, often cutting and pasting age-old diatribes that have little meaning to most of their audiences. Most Bustrs are relatively incoherent, though a few of the more lucid ones are potentially dangerous stalkers. The Mutt. Alternatively known as Dogs or Yapping Dogs. Mutts are pack animals characterized by their loud barking – vociferous, repetitive, usually ignorant and irrational criticism of anything and anyone they do not like. Mutts frequently become obsessed with a few or even a single poster with whom they disagree, often for purely personal reasons. Like a dog gnawing at a bone, the Mutt will attack the object of its ire over and over again, making a fool of itself in the eyes of those who understand such childish behavior for what it is. Often one Mutt in a group of Yapping Dogs will act as the alpha of the pack, while the others chime in to voice their mindless (but loud) support for their leader's opinions. The Holy Misroller (HM). Holy Misrollers are those online forum participants who give Christians (or other religious adherents) a bad name. The HM believes himself or herself to be a Christian (etc.) and will generally tell anyone who'll listen about his or her faith in God and in Jesus. At the same time, however, the HM will display decidedly un-Christian behavior, frequently making an *** out of him- or herself. The HM is often characterized by a great deal of anger and hostility. The breed tends to lash out at anyone and anything not in keeping with its incorrectly narrow worldview. The saddest part about HMs is that they do not truly understand Christianity at all.
THE MAJOR BREEDS
The Vulgar Troll. These, the crudest of all trolls, make no attempt to hide their species. Often, they make racist comments, or they may post porn and other spam. Vulgars usually confine their comments merely to primitive, profane, off-topic observations. When you log into the Really Profound Serious Philosophical Discussions board and see the post, "I smell my farts," you've spotted the Vulgar Troll. Other species of troll sometimes revert to this form when cornered.
The Deceptive or "Classic" Troll. More sophisticated but often easily identified and exposed, the Classic Troll gratifies his ego by pretending to be someone or something he or she is not. Classics make up elaborate stories about themselves, sometimes weaving some amounts of truth into their lies. As a web of lies is difficult to build with consistency, however, Classics are often "outed" by other forumites. When this happens, Classic Trolls have a bag of tricks to which they turn:
– Classic Troll Tactic Number 1: If the heat gets too much for you, claim it was all "a joke." In this way you can excuse any and all deceit by claiming people just weren't smart enough to "get" the humor of it.
– Classic Troll Tactic Number 2: Create another account, and log on pretending to be someone else, in order to show support for the Troll in Question (TiQ). These puppet accounts sometimes claim to be disinterested third parties. At other times they pretend to be "friends" of the TiQ.
– Classic Troll Tactic Number 3: When your lies paint you into a corner, claim that your little brother, or some unnamed friend, has commandeered your account and made you look foolish. This technique can also be applied in claiming that the puppet account(s) you created may not, in fact, be disinterested third parties or friends, but that they are your relatives ("little brother" is most common) only trying to help support you.
– Classic Troll Tactic Number 4: When nothing else works, claim that now, finally, you're telling the truth about all the lies you told before. Make up a fresh set of lies, and throw yourself on the mercy of the forumites.
– Classic Troll Tactic Number 5: When all else fails, claim to be leaving forever. Trolls who claim they are leaving never do, of course; you can bet that anyone who proclaims, "I'm never coming back here," will most certainly at least check back for responses, and probably will not be able to resist posting again.
– Classic Troll Tactic Number 6: Have a tantrum. When all their other tricks are exhausted, Classic Trolls will become angry and start shouting. Often they revert to Vulgar Trolls when this happens.
– Classic Troll Tactic Number 7: The insincere apology. Similar to Tactic 4, this involves pretending to repent for one's trolling and is accompanied often by great melodrama. Insincere troll apologists hope that they'll be forgiven if only they act disgusted enough with their own behavior.
The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves:
– Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point.
– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you."
– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers.
– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice.
– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. The Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice – all the while continuing to respond to them.
– Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above.
The YerATroll. YerATrolls are those whining forumites who devote a tremendous amount of time and energy complaining about the tremendous amount of time an energy expended by Troll Bashers and Angry Forumites on the practice of troll-hunting. A self-righteous and hypocritical breed, YerATrolls spend all their time pointing fingers at everyone but trolls, petulantly demanding that their opinions be granted the significance the YerATroll believes they deserve. YerATrolls often start threads excoriating others for troll-hunting, all the while completely oblivious to the fact that they're engaging in trolling by picking fights with everyone else. One of the most ill-tempered of troll species, YerATrolls are characterized by a childish need for attention disguised as cynical nobility and pretensions of being "above it all."
The Agenda Troll. Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own – often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum. When a flame war erupts on another board, for example, Agenda Trolls will follow their opponents to other forums in order to continue the spat.
– Some Agenda Trolls are subject-matter oriented. An Agenda Troll who thinks Self-Defense Instructor X is a fraud, or who feels he has been ripped off or otherwise dealt with unfairly by Instructor X, will visit forums devoted to self-defense and martial arts in order to spread his or her negative opinion of Instructor X.
– Agenda Trolls may also be of the milder Spam Agenda subspecies; these are Trolls who join a board specifically to advertise some venture of their own. They are not often troublesome, though their shameless plugging is met with varying degrees of irritation.
The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species.
When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree – particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views – Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing."
When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks. A philotroll's bag of rhetorical tricks includes a variety of transparent ploys, such as willfully misinterpreting the opponent's words, committing Straw Man fallacies, accusing his or her opponents of engaging in the very tactics used by the philotroll, and so forth.
When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are among the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind.
The Affected Profundity Troll. A mutant subspecies of Sophist Trolls, Affected Profundity Trolls post endless pages of pretentious drivel that is intended to appear wise, but which generally makes little sense (if any). Affected Profundity Trolls enjoy asking themselves questions, sometimes answering them and sometimes leaving them hanging, for they believe this looks intelligent and lends an aura of mystery to their incoherent ramblings. Affected Profundity Trolls aspire to become Sophist Trolls, but lack the intelligence necessary to make the leap.
The Don King Troll. Related to Affected Profundity Trolls, Don King Trolls spout gibberish in the hope that they'll either bore or confuse to death those with whom they disagree. The average Don King Troll is "a pursuitist who gromulates his adversarial computerists with height defining formulations to the disinterestingest adjunct."
The Artistic Troll. A higher species of Classic Troll, Artistic Trolls are intelligent individuals who understand the subtle art of trolling, and who do what they do specifically to make others look foolish. Often employing the techniques of Deceptive Trolls, Artistics will string forumites along until some point in time designated by their own desires, at which point they will reveal the ploy, admit that it was a ploy, and laugh at everyone for being stupid enough to fall for it. Artistic Trolls delight in sowing discord, but do it in a highly developed and fully aware manner. They do not care if they are despised, and do not seek the approval of forum participants. Chaos is their only goal, and preferably chaos with a humorous bent to it. Without a doubt, this is the most dangerous species.
The Bitter Troll. Bitter Trolls are a curious cross-species. They can be trolls of any breed in their larval stages, but become Bitters after their previous activities are seen for what they were. What sets these trolls apart from other classifications is their behavior after they have been spotted and labeled as trolls. Angry, frustrated, and resentful about being "outed," the Bitter Troll will wage a campaign of indignant complaints intended to focus attention away from the troll and on whomever is responsible for identifying the creature. Often, a troll mutates into a Bitter just prior to becoming a Vulgar.
The Bustr. Bustrs are obsessive Bitters by whom you could practically set your watch. A Bustr never forgets, never forgives, and holds a grudge until the day it dies. Also a variant of Agenda trolls, Bustrs typically move from forum to forum complaining about the objects of their ire, often cutting and pasting age-old diatribes that have little meaning to most of their audiences. Most Bustrs are relatively incoherent, though a few of the more lucid ones are potentially dangerous stalkers.
The Mutt. Alternatively known as Dogs or Yapping Dogs. Mutts are pack animals characterized by their loud barking – vociferous, repetitive, usually ignorant and irrational criticism of anything and anyone they do not like. Mutts frequently become obsessed with a few or even a single poster with whom they disagree, often for purely personal reasons. Like a dog gnawing at a bone, the Mutt will attack the object of its ire over and over again, making a fool of itself in the eyes of those who understand such childish behavior for what it is. Often one Mutt in a group of Yapping Dogs will act as the alpha of the pack, while the others chime in to voice their mindless (but loud) support for their leader's opinions.
The Holy Misroller (HM). Holy Misrollers are those online forum participants who give Christians (or other religious adherents) a bad name. The HM believes himself or herself to be a Christian (etc.) and will generally tell anyone who'll listen about his or her faith in God and in Jesus. At the same time, however, the HM will display decidedly un-Christian behavior, frequently making an *** out of him- or herself. The HM is often characterized by a great deal of anger and hostility. The breed tends to lash out at anyone and anything not in keeping with its incorrectly narrow worldview. The saddest part about HMs is that they do not truly understand Christianity at all.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
schlimm BaltACD schlimm Ulrich Why not just ignore what you don't want to read? what's up with all the need for buttons? Exactly. Why do some folks need a button or moderators to block certain posts, threads or posters for them? Exercising one's own discretion as to what to read should suffice for oneself, if that is all it is really about. That has worked so well to date; especially among those that have no discretion only a sense of rightesnous. Snarky posts like your self-righteous one above in blue are why we need to reprimand folks who refuse to be civil and then blame others.
Schlimm,
Do you have something worthwhile to contribute to the conversation?
Euclid Murray Norm48327 cx500 My chief complaint, and there is no easy answer, is that some threads which started out interesting and instructive degenerated into a tedious morass, of hypothetical theories based mostly on ignorance. It is easy enough to just ignore any postings by that (or those) specific individuals, but I fear that other people with less knowledge of railroading may be misled. Attempts in the past by a number of knowledgeable railroaders on this forum to correct the gabble were, and are, mostly just buried by more of the same. I'd not be surprised if some lost their temper and flamed at the foolishness. Was that what the veiled discussion was about several months back? John Sutherland You have hit the nail squarely on the head. Theories don't cut it; results do, and there is a total lack of practicality in some of those theories. When confronted with the facts, the poster takes offense even the experienced people may have tried the idea in the past and found it to be unworkable. I certainly can't blame the railroaders for getting frustrated when they are repeatedly told they don't know what they are talking about. Well said Norm!!! Well, of course I have no idea what you three are referring to, Could that be because you are unwilling to accept others viewpoints and the voice of experience? but what I find is that if I or anybody else suggests a new idea for railroads, it is met with universal rejection here. It is often rather hostile. There is obviously a strong belief that if the railroads are not already doing it, you can bet that it is not a good idea. It would be a natural reaction among railfans. John Keiling was an idea-proposing machine, and he seemed to be despised by at least half the Trains readership. Their extreme defensiveness was on parade. Maybe that was DPM’s point. But I have never told a railroader that “they don’t know what they are talking about.” In fact most of the critics start out by telling me that I don’t know what I am talking about. At most, I have responded that I did not agree with their criticism of my idea. Often I see that they have misunderstood what I am proposing, so I try to restate it more clearly. From my point of view, some of these critics are way too defensive if I do not simply buckle under to their first objection. They often become angry that I would have the audacity to not accept their condescending put down.
Well, of course I have no idea what you three are referring to,
Could that be because you are unwilling to accept others viewpoints and the voice of experience?
but what I find is that if I or anybody else suggests a new idea for railroads, it is met with universal rejection here. It is often rather hostile. There is obviously a strong belief that if the railroads are not already doing it, you can bet that it is not a good idea. It would be a natural reaction among railfans. John Keiling was an idea-proposing machine, and he seemed to be despised by at least half the Trains readership. Their extreme defensiveness was on parade. Maybe that was DPM’s point.
Balt,
That was so good I had to save it.
BaltACD Internet troll types THE MAJOR BREEDS The Vulgar Troll. These, the crudest of all trolls, make no attempt to hide their species. Often, they make racist comments, or they may post porn and other spam. Vulgars usually confine their comments merely to primitive, profane, off-topic observations. When you log into the Really Profound Serious Philosophical Discussions board and see the post, "I smell my farts," you've spotted the Vulgar Troll. Other species of troll sometimes revert to this form when cornered. The Deceptive or "Classic" Troll. More sophisticated but often easily identified and exposed, the Classic Troll gratifies his ego by pretending to be someone or something he or she is not. Classics make up elaborate stories about themselves, sometimes weaving some amounts of truth into their lies. As a web of lies is difficult to build with consistency, however, Classics are often "outed" by other forumites. When this happens, Classic Trolls have a bag of tricks to which they turn: – Classic Troll Tactic Number 1: If the heat gets too much for you, claim it was all "a joke." In this way you can excuse any and all deceit by claiming people just weren't smart enough to "get" the humor of it. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 2: Create another account, and log on pretending to be someone else, in order to show support for the Troll in Question (TiQ). These puppet accounts sometimes claim to be disinterested third parties. At other times they pretend to be "friends" of the TiQ. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 3: When your lies paint you into a corner, claim that your little brother, or some unnamed friend, has commandeered your account and made you look foolish. This technique can also be applied in claiming that the puppet account(s) you created may not, in fact, be disinterested third parties or friends, but that they are your relatives ("little brother" is most common) only trying to help support you. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 4: When nothing else works, claim that now, finally, you're telling the truth about all the lies you told before. Make up a fresh set of lies, and throw yourself on the mercy of the forumites. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 5: When all else fails, claim to be leaving forever. Trolls who claim they are leaving never do, of course; you can bet that anyone who proclaims, "I'm never coming back here," will most certainly at least check back for responses, and probably will not be able to resist posting again. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 6: Have a tantrum. When all their other tricks are exhausted, Classic Trolls will become angry and start shouting. Often they revert to Vulgar Trolls when this happens. – Classic Troll Tactic Number 7: The insincere apology. Similar to Tactic 4, this involves pretending to repent for one's trolling and is accompanied often by great melodrama. Insincere troll apologists hope that they'll be forgiven if only they act disgusted enough with their own behavior. The Contrarian Troll. A sophisticated breed, Contrarian Trolls frequent boards whose predominant opinions are contrary to their own. A forum dominated by those who support firearms and knife rights, for example, will invariably be visited by Contrarian Trolls espousing their beliefs in the benefits of gun control. It is important to distinguish between dissenters and actual Contrarian Trolls, however; the Contrarian is not categorized as a troll because of his or her dissenting opinions, but due to the manner in which he or she behaves: – Contrarian Warning Sign Number One: The most important indicator of a poster's Contrarian Troll status is his constant use of subtle and not-so-subtle insults, a technique intended to make people angry. Contrarians will resist the urge to be insulting at first, but as their post count increases, they become more and more abusive of those with whom they disagree. Most often they initiate the insults in the course of what has been a civil, if heated, debate to that point. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Two: Constant references to the forum membership as monolithic. "You guys are all just [descriptor]." "You're a lynch mob." "You all just want to ridicule anyone who disagrees with you." – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Three: Intellectual dishonesty. This is only a mild indicator that is not limited to trolls, but Contrarians display it to a high degree. They will lie about things they've said, pull posts out of context in a manner that changes their meanings significantly, and generally ignore any points for which they have no ready answers. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Four: Accusing the accusers. When confronted with their trolling, trolls immediately respond that it is the accusers who are trolls (see Natural Predators below). Often the Contrarian will single out his most vocal opponent and claim that while he can respect his other opponents, this one in particular is beneath his notice. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Five: Attempts to condescend. The Contrarian will seek refuge in condescending remarks that repeatedly scorn his or her critics as beneath notice – all the while continuing to respond to them. – Contrarian Warning Sign Number Six: One distinctive mark of Contrarian Trolls is that every thread in which they dissent quickly devolves into a debate about who is trolling whom. In the course of such a debate the Contrarian will display many of the other Warning Signs mentioned above. The YerATroll. YerATrolls are those whining forumites who devote a tremendous amount of time and energy complaining about the tremendous amount of time an energy expended by Troll Bashers and Angry Forumites on the practice of troll-hunting. A self-righteous and hypocritical breed, YerATrolls spend all their time pointing fingers at everyone but trolls, petulantly demanding that their opinions be granted the significance the YerATroll believes they deserve. YerATrolls often start threads excoriating others for troll-hunting, all the while completely oblivious to the fact that they're engaging in trolling by picking fights with everyone else. One of the most ill-tempered of troll species, YerATrolls are characterized by a childish need for attention disguised as cynical nobility and pretensions of being "above it all." The Agenda Troll. Agenda trolls are those participants who join a forum specifically to pursue an agenda of their own – often a feud or grudge with another member, or perhaps a dispute with some party not participating in that forum. When a flame war erupts on another board, for example, Agenda Trolls will follow their opponents to other forums in order to continue the spat. – Some Agenda Trolls are subject-matter oriented. An Agenda Troll who thinks Self-Defense Instructor X is a fraud, or who feels he has been ripped off or otherwise dealt with unfairly by Instructor X, will visit forums devoted to self-defense and martial arts in order to spread his or her negative opinion of Instructor X. – Agenda Trolls may also be of the milder Spam Agenda subspecies; these are Trolls who join a board specifically to advertise some venture of their own. They are not often troublesome, though their shameless plugging is met with varying degrees of irritation. The Sophist Troll. Sophist Trolls, or "philotrolls," fancy themselves Enlightened Philosophers or Learned Experts of the highest order. Often well educated, Philotrolls are capable of speaking intelligently on a number of topics, and when the spirit moves them they can be worthwhile forum participants. Unfortunately, Sophist Trolls are an extremely hostile and intolerant species. When confronted by opinions with which they do not agree – particularly when they do not see any means of successfully arguing their contrary views – Sophists resort (repeatedly) to a variety of intellectually dishonest tactics. Most often, this is characterized by an overly snide, condescending, patronizing attitude. Philotrolls consider anyone with whom they do not agree to be "immature," and are fond of quoting that old saw that "A little knowledge is a dangerous thing." When cornered they are quick to resort to personal attacks. A philotroll's bag of rhetorical tricks includes a variety of transparent ploys, such as willfully misinterpreting the opponent's words, committing Straw Man fallacies, accusing his or her opponents of engaging in the very tactics used by the philotroll, and so forth. When engaging in their sophistry, philotrolls are among the most hypocritical and aggravating of trollkind. The Affected Profundity Troll. A mutant subspecies of Sophist Trolls, Affected Profundity Trolls post endless pages of pretentious drivel that is intended to appear wise, but which generally makes little sense (if any). Affected Profundity Trolls enjoy asking themselves questions, sometimes answering them and sometimes leaving them hanging, for they believe this looks intelligent and lends an aura of mystery to their incoherent ramblings. Affected Profundity Trolls aspire to become Sophist Trolls, but lack the intelligence necessary to make the leap. The Don King Troll. Related to Affected Profundity Trolls, Don King Trolls spout gibberish in the hope that they'll either bore or confuse to death those with whom they disagree. The average Don King Troll is "a pursuitist who gromulates his adversarial computerists with height defining formulations to the disinterestingest adjunct." The Artistic Troll. A higher species of Classic Troll, Artistic Trolls are intelligent individuals who understand the subtle art of trolling, and who do what they do specifically to make others look foolish. Often employing the techniques of Deceptive Trolls, Artistics will string forumites along until some point in time designated by their own desires, at which point they will reveal the ploy, admit that it was a ploy, and laugh at everyone for being stupid enough to fall for it. Artistic Trolls delight in sowing discord, but do it in a highly developed and fully aware manner. They do not care if they are despised, and do not seek the approval of forum participants. Chaos is their only goal, and preferably chaos with a humorous bent to it. Without a doubt, this is the most dangerous species. The Bitter Troll. Bitter Trolls are a curious cross-species. They can be trolls of any breed in their larval stages, but become Bitters after their previous activities are seen for what they were. What sets these trolls apart from other classifications is their behavior after they have been spotted and labeled as trolls. Angry, frustrated, and resentful about being "outed," the Bitter Troll will wage a campaign of indignant complaints intended to focus attention away from the troll and on whomever is responsible for identifying the creature. Often, a troll mutates into a Bitter just prior to becoming a Vulgar. The Bustr. Bustrs are obsessive Bitters by whom you could practically set your watch. A Bustr never forgets, never forgives, and holds a grudge until the day it dies. Also a variant of Agenda trolls, Bustrs typically move from forum to forum complaining about the objects of their ire, often cutting and pasting age-old diatribes that have little meaning to most of their audiences. Most Bustrs are relatively incoherent, though a few of the more lucid ones are potentially dangerous stalkers. The Mutt. Alternatively known as Dogs or Yapping Dogs. Mutts are pack animals characterized by their loud barking – vociferous, repetitive, usually ignorant and irrational criticism of anything and anyone they do not like. Mutts frequently become obsessed with a few or even a single poster with whom they disagree, often for purely personal reasons. Like a dog gnawing at a bone, the Mutt will attack the object of its ire over and over again, making a fool of itself in the eyes of those who understand such childish behavior for what it is. Often one Mutt in a group of Yapping Dogs will act as the alpha of the pack, while the others chime in to voice their mindless (but loud) support for their leader's opinions. The Holy Misroller (HM). Holy Misrollers are those online forum participants who give Christians (or other religious adherents) a bad name. The HM believes himself or herself to be a Christian (etc.) and will generally tell anyone who'll listen about his or her faith in God and in Jesus. At the same time, however, the HM will display decidedly un-Christian behavior, frequently making an *** out of him- or herself. The HM is often characterized by a great deal of anger and hostility. The breed tends to lash out at anyone and anything not in keeping with its incorrectly narrow worldview. The saddest part about HMs is that they do not truly understand Christianity at all.
OMG..I laughed so hard I think I ruptured something!
23 17 46 11
Norm48327 schlimm BaltACD schlimm Ulrich Why not just ignore what you don't want to read? what's up with all the need for buttons? Exactly. Why do some folks need a button or moderators to block certain posts, threads or posters for them? Exercising one's own discretion as to what to read should suffice for oneself, if that is all it is really about. That has worked so well to date; especially among those that have no discretion only a sense of rightesnous. Snarky posts like your self-righteous one above in blue are why we need to reprimand folks who refuse to be civil and then blame others. Schlimm, Do you have something worthwhile to contribute to the conversation?
Free speech for some, reprimands for those who exercise their right to speak freely in disagreement.
Allow only specific posters to express their point of view, censor those that have a differing point of view…..
I know, we need an “Elitist” button to warn forum member that participating in a particular thread means they must claim an IO of 131 or above, have at least one advanced degree, and agree totally with the original posters opinion.
We also need a” classified” or” jobs” section so minions can shop around for a leader they like.
I don’t know about the ignore button…if I used it, I would miss out on a lot of fun, it would be like the batteries running out in the laser pointer you use to tease a cat….you keep promising yourself you won’t use it again, but there it sits on the edge of the desk, and the cat is right there doing the same cat stuff again, and….well, it’s just so much fun to watch the troll, I mean cat, chase the same thing over and over.
I think we need a huff button.
edblysard Norm48327 schlimm BaltACD schlimm Ulrich Why not just ignore what you don't want to read? what's up with all the need for buttons? Exactly. Why do some folks need a button or moderators to block certain posts, threads or posters for them? Exercising one's own discretion as to what to read should suffice for oneself, if that is all it is really about. That has worked so well to date; especially among those that have no discretion only a sense of rightesnous. Snarky posts like your self-righteous one above in blue are why we need to reprimand folks who refuse to be civil and then blame others. Schlimm, Do you have something worthwhile to contribute to the conversation? Free speech for some, reprimands for those who exercise their right to speak freely in disagreement. Allow only specific posters to express their point of view, censor those that have a differing point of view….. I know, we need an “Elitist” button to warn forum member that participating in a particular thread means they must claim an IO of 131 or above, have at least one advanced degree, and agree totally with the original posters opinion. We also need a” classified” or” jobs” section so minions can shop around for a leader they like. I don’t know about the ignore button…if I used it, I would miss out on a lot of fun, it would be like the batteries running out in the laser pointer you use to tease a cat….you keep promising yourself you won’t use it again, but there it sits on the edge of the desk, and the cat is right there doing the same cat stuff again, and….well, it’s just so much fun to watch the troll, I mean cat, chase the same thing over and over.
It is so funny to watch you guys squirming around in circles trying to see who can be more silly. "Race to the bottom?"
Deleted: Ignoring Euclid and Schlimm
Yet again, it gets old quickly.
EVERYONE, SETTLE DOWN. Please
Sheesh.
OK. I talked to the folks downstairs about getting bigger avatars and the "ignore" button.
ON AVATARS, there is a scheduled software update that will be taking place to the Trains website on Oct. 1, anyway. When that update happens, our IT guys will try to increase Avatar size to the extent allowed. This is a "no-cost" fix, so shouldn't be hard to update.
On "INGORE" BUTTONS: This is a touch more complicated. Since we never had such a button, we never got any software to support one. IT will bring this up internally and report back. No deadline on this one, but if I know these guys, they will be checking and give an honest assessment of what is possible before long.
Questions, concerns, comments?
Steve SweeneyDigital Editor, Hobby
MurrayBTW: Euclid: You deserve an Oscar for the way you feigned ignorance in your recent posts.
Really? How so? What posts? You will have to be a little more specific please.
Euclid Murray BTW: Euclid: You deserve an Oscar for the way you feigned ignorance in your recent posts. Really? How so? What posts? You will have to be a little more specific please.
Murray BTW: Euclid: You deserve an Oscar for the way you feigned ignorance in your recent posts.
BTW: Euclid: You deserve an Oscar for the way you feigned ignorance in your recent posts.
Convenience memory?
Norm,
I have copies of everything I posted, so there is no need to rely on memory.
MurrayOh and Schlimm: Stop being so nasty in your comments to the other posters. You also deserve at least an Oscar nomination with your hypocritical sense of self-righteousness. Spare us!!!
You have one of the nastiest tongues on here. Seldom a constructive or (heaven forbid!!) critical comment about railroading; you spend your time ridiculing others. Great job, Scotty!!
Another request: Quoted material is indented on the Left and the Right and if there are quotes within quotes within quotes within quotes, the oldest quote is just a line of single characters down the middle of the page... I don't speed--read too well that way! Could the "Right indent" be eliminated? At least it would increase the number of embedded quotes within quotes before the oldest quote becomes a vertical string of single characters.
Maybe reduce the number of spaces on the Left that quoted material is indented too.
And maybe darken the box around the quoted material to help delineate the individual quotes from each other and the new material.
And when replying in a thread and the "Quote" link is clicked to copy the quoted material to the text input box, it would be nice if the cursor were placed below the quoted material on a new line instead of being left within the quoted material. I have learned to always type "Ctrl-End" and "Enter" before I start typing; not everybody does that and sometimes their comments appear to be part of the quote.
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Very Sad that a thread designed to help the moderators/management improve the forums has degenerated into members expressing their personal dislike of other members...
It never ceases to amaze me that of all the forums on the Trains.com website the "TRAINS Magazine - General Discussion" forum has more nasty posts/flame-wars than all the others combined.
Were it up to me (and it most definitely is not) the GD forum would be replaced with one or more other forums, perhaps a "freight railroading" forum and maybe "Railroad operations and facilities".
"I Often Dream of Trains"-From the Album of the Same Name by Robyn Hitchcock
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