zugmann Euclid, I think it would be a lot more effective to reduce and simplify what needs to be verified. What are we verifying, and how do you propose to verify what you want?
Euclid, I think it would be a lot more effective to reduce and simplify what needs to be verified.
What are we verifying, and how do you propose to verify what you want?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Euclid What I am talking about is more like the certainty of verification that comes from an interlocking plant. It would come from a powered parking brake that can be locked. Maybe the lock signal could be sent somewhere for monitoring or further control. Just one issue to verify; ON or OFF.
What I am talking about is more like the certainty of verification that comes from an interlocking plant. It would come from a powered parking brake that can be locked. Maybe the lock signal could be sent somewhere for monitoring or further control. Just one issue to verify; ON or OFF.
But just because a satellite signal says the brakes are applied, how do you know they really are? That doesn't seem like proper verification to me.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
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Euclid As I understand it, the flawed interpretation of securement at Nantes was including the independent brakes as part of the securement and test, and failing to do both steps of the test. Whereas, including the locomotive handbrakes in the securement was permitted under MM&A rules. I think that the most reliable securement would be a full-train, power parking brake with a single point control than can be locked. There would be no issues with limited manpower, limited time, or people being tired or lazy. There would be no issues with how many brakes to set, how tight to set them, how well they work, how steep the grade is, or what the weather is like. There would be no false impressions. There would just be one simple control that says “ON” or “OFF.”
As I understand it, the flawed interpretation of securement at Nantes was including the independent brakes as part of the securement and test, and failing to do both steps of the test. Whereas, including the locomotive handbrakes in the securement was permitted under MM&A rules.
I think that the most reliable securement would be a full-train, power parking brake with a single point control than can be locked. There would be no issues with limited manpower, limited time, or people being tired or lazy. There would be no issues with how many brakes to set, how tight to set them, how well they work, how steep the grade is, or what the weather is like. There would be no false impressions. There would just be one simple control that says “ON” or “OFF.”
Falcon48And how would the power parking brake be powered and applied? If it's done by air pressure, the air will eventually leak off if the apparatus for maintining air pressure fails or the air source is shut down. Also, train air brakes can be relased (by malfunction or by mistake) even if the air hasn't leaked out of the system. There are good reasons why FRA regulations don't permit air brakes to be used to secure an unattended train
You could probably do it with ECP. There's a couple locomotive handbrake models that could be adapted for car use, I'm sure. But then you have to have ECP-equipped trains and engines. Not a cheap endeavor, for sure.
zugmannEuclidWhat I am talking about is more like the certainty of verification that comes from an interlocking plant. It would come from a powered parking brake that can be locked. Maybe the lock signal could be sent somewhere for monitoring or further control. Just one issue to verify; ON or OFF.But just because a satellite signal says the brakes are applied, how do you know they really are? That doesn't seem like proper verification to me.
EuclidWhat I am talking about is more like the certainty of verification that comes from an interlocking plant. It would come from a powered parking brake that can be locked. Maybe the lock signal could be sent somewhere for monitoring or further control. Just one issue to verify; ON or OFF.
It is true that no verification can be perfect. Nothing can be perfect, but you can get a lot closer to perfection if you take all of the subjective mumbo jumbo out of the process.
To a person who does not understand the handbrake securement test, a chart calling for a minimum number of handbrakes could easily be interpreted to mean that the minimum number is adequate. That is one clear implication of the language.
It would also be easy to interpret the whole test as simply releasing the automatic brakes and seeing whether or not the train moves. After all, that is the first level of the test. Even if one understands that there is a second level of the test where one is to pull, there is no way of knowing how hard to pull. And with pulling comes the risk of pulling in two, which might get the engineer in trouble.
Then there is the prospect of false impressions because of pulling with the locomotive handbrakes set, which was allowed on the MM&A despite not being allowed on other railroads.
I think when you add all this together you have a system will work most of the time and may not cause a disaster most of the time that it does not work. But for parking a train full of volatile oil above Lac Megantic, that securement system is as flawed and antiquated as strap rail.
EuclidAnd with pulling comes the risk of pulling in two, which might get the engineer in trouble.
If an engineer does that, he probably wouldn't have been able to get the train there to begin with.
Euclid To a person who does not understand the handbrake securement test, a chart calling for a minimum number of handbrakes could easily be interpreted to mean that the minimum number is adequate.
To a person who does not understand the handbrake securement test, a chart calling for a minimum number of handbrakes could easily be interpreted to mean that the minimum number is adequate.
If you don't understand the securement procedures you probably shouldn't be securing a train.
If they don't understand the securement process what makes you think they will even know there is a chart or check it?
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dehusman Euclid To a person who does not understand the handbrake securement test, a chart calling for a minimum number of handbrakes could easily be interpreted to mean that the minimum number is adequate. If you don't understand the securement procedures you probably shouldn't be securing a train. If they don't understand the securement process what makes you think they will even know there is a chart or check it?
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zugmann Falcon48And how would the power parking brake be powered and applied? If it's done by air pressure, the air will eventually leak off if the apparatus for maintining air pressure fails or the air source is shut down. Also, train air brakes can be relased (by malfunction or by mistake) even if the air hasn't leaked out of the system. There are good reasons why FRA regulations don't permit air brakes to be used to secure an unattended train You could probably do it with ECP. There's a couple locomotive handbrake models that could be adapted for car use, I'm sure. But then you have to have ECP-equipped trains and engines. Not a cheap endeavor, for sure.
Doesn't seem to me -- never seemed to me -- that any kind of ECP was necessary, or that a power-ASSISTED parking brake system needed a two-pipe air supply to be operated.
All the 'power' system needs to be is an air motor or ratcheting cylinder device that applies 'servo' power in the direction a brake is normally applied. Naturally when the air power to such a device is interrupted, the brakes will not slack off any more than they would if the same torque had been applied with a brake club, or any other device amplifying the power used to apply a manual brake.
The 'assurance' system is some kind of torquemeter system that reads the tension in the parts of the foundation going to the brake beams, or at the joint between the beam and the shoes (thereby giving a reasonable assurance that it's reading the pressure exerted between shoes and wheels). This signal goes to the RFID transponder on the particular truck (there would be two, one per end, on a tank car with separate foundation for each truck) which displays the light or flag that confirms to the front end (or person walking the train, etc.) that the brake is satisfactorily 'on'.
If a couple of the motors fail -- either actuate a couple more, or get out the club or cheater pipe or whatever. Likewise, you can always crank a given brake a little tighter after the motor has shut off.
I leave it up to the railroaders to describe what methods would be used to release a tight manual brake; presumably a brief application of power to release a bound ratchet, with some positive way to pop the pawl arrangement out when released, would be one approach. I do envision the RELEASE being individual, and requiring crew attendance at each brake to confirm, even if the APPLICATION is automatic and ganged by some number of cars or sections of the train. I suspect that if you wanted to avoid triggering a release, only a few of the motors would engage at a particular time, perhaps no more than one at a time, and under such conditions making the fancy 'automatic' brake nothing more than a power assist for manual application might be the best approach.
But yeesh, the idea that power is used to keep a manual brake applied... !
I have a parking brake system all worked out with the parts all modeled in 3D cad right down to a manufacturable design. It is just more of the same basic stuff that is associated with freight car brake systems. There is nothing exotic, nothing electric. There is no risk of unwanted application, and no way for it to release accidentally.
But I suspect that this idea and ten-thousand other train parking brake concepts have been invented already. The reason they are not used is the cost of universal application and interchangeability throughout the entire North American rolling freight car fleet. I see this parking brake idea being just for oil trains along with other changes.
But what I am wondering about is if anybody can post a list of freight train parking brake inventions. I do not readily find them, and am not sure where to look. Surely there must be thousands of them just as there are many inventions pertaining to couplers. I just want to see how others conceived of the practical concept.
OvermodBut yeesh, the idea that power is used to keep a manual brake applied... !
Powered locomotive handbrakes don't release when power is knocked off to them. They also can be cranked on or off manually - usually by handbrake wheel or ratchet handle. Never mind some of the big Macs that have the little lever you have to take off and turn - what a pain.
They also have indicator lights (or gauges) to show when they are applied. No need to reinvent the (handbrake?) wheel. It's been in use for years. Just need a power source throughout the train.
OvermodI leave it up to the railroaders to describe what methods would be used to release a tight manual brake; presumably a brief application of power to release a bound ratchet, with some positive way to pop the pawl arrangement out when released, would be one approach.
Brake club. Tighten the brake wheel just enough to release the pawl, then let 'er rip. Been there.
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Overmod EuclidAll hand brakes must be fully applied on all locomotives in the lead consist of an unattended train. I've been proceeding on the assumption that a 'safe' procedure for securement involves: 1) Apply the 'sufficient number' of handbrakes to the cars to pass a proper shove test 2) Perform proper shove test to assure train (locomotives and all) will not move. Apply more handbrakes if the test fails. Do not keep the independent brake applied when doing this test! 3) Apply handbrakes on locomotives (both as additional 'insurance' and in case the locomotives become separated from the train under some circumstance). I don't see anything substantial changing this.
EuclidAll hand brakes must be fully applied on all locomotives in the lead consist of an unattended train.
I've been proceeding on the assumption that a 'safe' procedure for securement involves:
1) Apply the 'sufficient number' of handbrakes to the cars to pass a proper shove test
2) Perform proper shove test to assure train (locomotives and all) will not move. Apply more handbrakes if the test fails. Do not keep the independent brake applied when doing this test!
3) Apply handbrakes on locomotives (both as additional 'insurance' and in case the locomotives become separated from the train under some circumstance).
I don't see anything substantial changing this.
Overmod,
Regarding the application of handbrakes on locomotives, you suggest that the locomotive handbrakes are to be left released until after the test, thus not be a direct, essential part of the securement; and only be applied as an extra measure to supplement the successfully tested securement after it is completed. That is certainly an option.
However, in the case of the MM&A, I interpret the accident report to say that, on the MM&A, locomotive handbrakes are applied prior to the test, and then tested as a direct and essential part of the securement.
EuclidHowever, in the case of the MM&A, I interpret the accident report to say that, on the MM&A, locomotive handbrakes are applied prior to the test, and then tested as a direct and essential part of the securement.
I would call on Randy Stahl to answer this definitively, since he has distinctive knowledge of MM&A procedure as well as good common sense. As I've noted already, I can't imagine any way of performing a legitimate pull test with the handbrakes applied on the locomotives, but I'll cheerfully defer to his knowledge.
Ditto for the far more ... should I say unlikely? ... idea that a pull test can be properly conducted with the independent brake fully applied on the locomotives.
Of course you don't do the test with the locomotive independent or handbrakes applied. I never have , never will. That's simple foolishness
Randy Stahl Of course you don't do the test with the locomotive independent or handbrakes applied. I never have , never will. That's simple foolishness.
Of course you don't do the test with the locomotive independent or handbrakes applied. I never have , never will. That's simple foolishness.
IF one is going to count the locomotives as "cars" for the purpose of determining how many handbrakes to set as an initial figure, then I can see setting the handbrakes before doing a roll test, however it is done.
That doesn't mean it's right, only that it makes a certain amount of sense. I think we're all agreed that the locomotives should not be included as such.
Overmod, Randy, and Tree:
First of all, let’s set aside the issue of independent brakes being applied during the test or being used as part of the securement. I think we all agree that this is not permitted. The only issue here is locomotive hand brakes.
This is from the TSB accident report. According to this, including the handbrakes in the securement is indeed "right" on the MM&A:
“Special instructions of some Canadian railway companies, including MMA, permitted the hand brakes on the locomotive consist to be included in the minimum required number of hand brakes. For example, if a company’s special instructions required at least 10 hand brakes to be applied, and the train were operating with 4 locomotives, then only 6 hand brakes were required to be applied on the cars in addition to those on the locomotives. During an effectiveness test performed with hand brakes applied on the locomotive consist, the LE has to overcome the braking force on the locomotives before moving the rest of the train.”
EuclidAccording to this, including the handbrakes in the securement is indeed right on the MM&A:
Just because it's acceptable on MMA doesn't necessarily mean it's truly appropriate. Like Randy, I don't test with the handbrake on the locomotive set. That is for two reasons: first, when it is set after the roll test, the handbrake on the locomotive is simply more insurance against unintended movement.
Second, there is every possibility that the cars will be left standing alone at some point, sans locomotive, ie, if the loco is removed for servicing or other duties. Relying on the handbrake on the locomotive as part of the total securement means the cars are possibly no longer adequately secured.
This point has already been made previously in the thread.
I would say that it if is “permitted,” it is “truly appropriate.” If you set enough brakes to pass the test, the train is secured, period. I understand your point that if the locomotives are later cut off for some reason, the train would lose securement. I guess they would have to deal with that by another rule that required adding car handbrakes and testing again without locomotive handbrakes before cutting off the power.
I can see the advantage and disadvantages of including the locomotive handbrakes as part of the securement. I do not know why all railroads do not agree on whether or not to permit the locomotive handbrakes to be part of the securement, but on the MM&A they did. That was the only point I was making in response to the earlier comment by Overmod.
Euclid I would say that it if is “permitted,” it is “truly appropriate.” If you set enough brakes to pass the test, the train is secured, period. I understand your point that if the locomotives are later cut off for some reason, the train would lose securement. I guess they would have to deal with that by another rule that required adding car handbrakes and testing again without locomotive handbrakes before cutting off the power. I can see the advantage and disadvantages of including the locomotive handbrakes as part of the securement. I do not know why all railroads do not agree on whether or not to permit the locomotive handbrakes to be part of the securement, but on the MM&A they did. That was the only point I was making in response to the earlier comment by Overmod.
Euc and the 1040 page securement rule that requires a Pilot Lawyer to instruct the train crew.
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EuclidI would say that it if is “permitted,” it is “truly appropriate.”
Actually, I see the two as mutually exclusive. Just because something is "permitted" does not mean it is "truly appropriate" except under the appropriate circumstances. For MMA, including the locomotives in the car count of brakes required to be set was permitted, and therefore it was appropriate for the LE to do so under the circumstances.
As we've seen in numerous discussions on the topic, however, said solution was not "truly appropriate." If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
And other railroads are of the opinion that such a procedure is not appropriate, thus do not permit it.
tree68 EuclidI would say that it if is “permitted,” it is “truly appropriate.” [I was referring only to the MM&A] For MMA, including the locomotives in the car count of brakes required to be set was permitted, and therefore it was appropriate for the LE to do so under the circumstances. As we've seen in numerous discussions on the topic, however, said solution was not "truly appropriate." If it was, we wouldn't be having this discussion.
EuclidI would say that it if is “permitted,” it is “truly appropriate.” [I was referring only to the MM&A]
For MMA, including the locomotives in the car count of brakes required to be set was permitted, and therefore it was appropriate for the LE to do so under the circumstances.
What to you mean by your last sentence? The runaway had nothing to do with the inclusion of the locomotive handbrakes in the securement, if that is what you are referring to.
EuclidWhat to you mean by your last sentence? The runaway had nothing to do with the inclusion of the locomotive handbrakes in the securement, if that is what you are referring to.
Actually, the inclusion of the locomotive handbrakes in the securement had everything to do with the runaway. If the train had been secured by setting the necessary number of handbrakes on the consist, without relying on the handbrakes on the locomotives, and the securement test did not include any brakes on the locomotives (hand or independent), the train would not have moved, regardless of what happened to the locomotives.
Setting the handbrakes on the locomotives after determining that the train will not roll when all air brakes were released simply adds a layer of security to the mix.
tree68 EuclidWhat to you mean by your last sentence? The runaway had nothing to do with the inclusion of the locomotive handbrakes in the securement, if that is what you are referring to. Actually, the inclusion of the locomotive handbrakes in the securement had everything to do with the runaway. If the train had been secured by setting the necessary number of handbrakes on the consist, without relying on the handbrakes on the locomotives, and the securement test did not include any brakes on the locomotives (hand or independent), the train would not have moved, regardless of what happened to the locomotives.
I disagree.
The train rolled away because:
1) The engineer did not set enough handbrakes.
2) The engineer did not properly test the handbrake effectiveness because he tested with the independent brakes set; and he did not pull during the test.
He did not set the minimum number of handbrakes, and it has also been subsequently shown that the minimum number was not enough. But he never learned this because he tested with the independent brakes set.
However, the fact that he included the locomotive handbrakes as part of the securement had absolutely nothing to do with causing the runaway. Nowhere in the report does it say that part of the cause was including the locomotive handbrakes as part of the securement.
The issue with the locomotive brakes was that the engineer relied on the independent brakes; not that he relied on the handbrakes.
99.99999999999999999999% of the time if you follow the rules the cars or train stays put.
Very simple.
JUST FOLLOW THE RULES.
tree68 OvermodI leave it up to the railroaders to describe what methods would be used to release a tight manual brake; presumably a brief application of power to release a bound ratchet, with some positive way to pop the pawl arrangement out when released, would be one approach. Brake club. Tighten the brake wheel just enough to release the pawl, then let 'er rip. Been there.
Sorry, I was busy this morning and then gone all day, and didn't have a chance to comment further -- sorry if this looks like a 'yes, but...'
What I meant was that using a power 'securement' might wind the brakes so tight that the usual brake club application might not be able to pull enough slack to release the pawl. A proper 'power system' for cars would therefore have some design that facilitates positive release. I won't speculate on what forms of mechanism might accomplish that (and perhaps hope that no one else does...)
OM - I see what you're saying, and agree fully.
EuclidI disagree.
Bucky - aside from the fact that we both said about the same thing....
Euclid1) The engineer did not set enough handbrakes.
Tree68If the train had been secured by setting the necessary number of handbrakes on the consist,
And...
Euclid2) The engineer did not properly test the handbrake effectiveness because he tested with the independent brakes set;...
Tree68...without relying on the handbrakes on the locomotives, and the securement test did not include any brakes on the locomotives (hand or independent)
Which means you're disagreeing with yourself...
tree68 EuclidI disagree. Bucky - aside from the fact that we both said about the same thing.... Euclid1) The engineer did not set enough handbrakes. Tree68If the train had been secured by setting the necessary number of handbrakes on the consist, And... Euclid2) The engineer did not properly test the handbrake effectiveness because he tested with the independent brakes set;... Tree68...without relying on the handbrakes on the locomotives, and the securement test did not include any brakes on the locomotives (hand or independent) Which means you're disagreeing with yourself...
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