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time for the unions to step up

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Posted by Norm48327 on Sunday, July 27, 2014 11:28 AM
I know that you believe you understand what you think I said, but I’m not sure you realize that what you read is not what I meant. 

Norm


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Posted by Euclid on Sunday, July 27, 2014 10:56 AM

Murphy Siding
Euclid
As Murphy Siding says, it might be simpler to just let people say what they say without interpreting them by paraphrasing them, but ........................ 
  I think that's why the question was invented.  It allows you to ask what someone meant, not tell someone what they meant. Confused

I think you are mistakenly paraphrasing what I meant when I explained my purpose of what I meant in the above quote.

Telling someone what they meant is not the point of paraphrasing what they said in order to seek clarification.  “Telling someone what they meant” is only your erroneous perception of the point of paraphrasing to seek clarification.  You suggest the use of a “question” to ask the person what they meant.  Yet, the use of the question is right there in the paraphrasing.  It implied in the paraphrase of what they said.  The person who made the original statement is free to correct my paraphrase if they disagree with it.  There is nothing sinister or illegal about paraphrasing for this purpose. 

If someone says something, and I paraphrase it, my only purpose is to restate it because I don’t understand what it means as the original person stated it.  I have not removed what that person said in order to rewrite it to counter their position. 

If I disagreed with someone’s position, I would just say so and not get into some stupid game of a clever paraphrase of what they said in order to twist their words to make it look like they agree with me.   I will leave that silly technique to others. 

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, July 26, 2014 10:45 PM

schlimm

It sees to me that the railroaders are not in a position of expertise when it concerns language.  Maybe we are to defer to your wisdom about railroading but when you make a declarative statement.  It is subject to examination.  Euclid did not alter the meaning of what ACY said.

  I'll paraphrase you, rather than directly quoting you.   What you're saying is, that it's common knowledge that many members of our forum actually do work for a railroad.  Since we have no reason to believe that Bucyrus is an English professor, it seems unreasonable to let him paraphrase you.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Saturday, July 26, 2014 10:39 PM

Euclid

As Murphy Siding says, it might be simpler to just let people say what they say without interpreting them by paraphrasing them, but ........................ 

  I think that's why the question was invented.  It allows you to ask what someone meant, not tell someone what they meant. Confused

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Posted by RRKen on Saturday, July 26, 2014 10:01 PM

Murray

The Professor at a recent meeting of the Trustees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29E6GbYdB1c

 

I bet the Trustees were against it too!

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:58 PM

The Professor at a recent meeting of the Trustees:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29E6GbYdB1c

 

 

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Posted by RRKen on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:55 PM

Murray

 

Was that the Perfessor in a past life?

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:52 PM
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Posted by RRKen on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:51 PM

Murray

zugmann

Deleted.

I'm not getting into yet another one of Bucky's oil train story time posts.

Yes.....but....

Pork Butt?

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:50 PM

zugmann

Deleted.

I'm not getting into yet another one of Bucky's oil train story time posts.

Yes.....but....

 

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Posted by RRKen on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:49 PM

Murray

And like a bad toenail fungus, Schlimm shows up again.

Not like State Farm I take it?

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:48 PM

zugmann

Not the one you made before this one?  Not beyond the first sentence.

When I said I didn't read it, I meant I didn't read it.  If I read it, I wouldn't have said I didn't read it.  that's how it works.

I read his sentence 'till I didn't read it.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:47 PM

schlimm

It sees to me that the railroaders are not in a position of expertise when it concerns language.  Maybe we are to defer to your wisdom about railroading but when you make a declarative statement.  It is subject to examination.  Euclid did not alter the meaning of what ACY said.

And like a bad toenail fungus, Schlimm shows up again.

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:41 PM

Not the one you made before this one?  Not beyond the first sentence.

When I said I didn't read it, I meant I didn't read it.  If I read it, I wouldn't have said I didn't read it.  that's how it works.

 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:38 PM

I think you did read it.

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:34 PM

I don't care.  I didn't even read your last post. 

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:31 PM

 

zugmann

Deleted.

I'm not getting into yet another one of Bucky's oil train story time posts.

In response to your original comment asking how we got stuck on Lac Megantic:

We got stuck on it because in three different threads about changing to one-man crews, people have numerous time asserted that Lac Megantic is an example of the problem with one-man crews. I say that is nonsense. 

Another thing people alway say is that disasters are the result of many things going wrong at the same time.  I think that has been stretched too far. 

However, I do hold out the possibility that the Lac Megantic disaster was the fault of the company culture of a compromised train securement policy.  So I would not be surprised if the trial discovers that and largely vindicates the engineer.

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:14 PM

Deleted.

I'm not getting into yet another one of Bucky's oil train story time posts.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:09 PM

Euclid

zugmann

Euclid
I prefer both.

Which means you only prefer one.

No it does not mean that.

Which means yes it does.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:05 PM

As Murphy Siding says, it might be simpler to just let people say what they say without interpreting them by paraphrasing them, but often people write in a way where their meaning is unclear.  Sometimes people will even paraphrase themselves to clarify their meaning. 

Take this quote from ACY replying to me, for instance:

“You say they [the engineer’s supervisors] had no reason to expect a problem. Human beings get tired. Human managers should know that, and should understand that one tired person at the end of a long and lonely shift might be tired, and perhaps not as sharp and alert as we would like. Long hours and one-man crews are seen as efficient, but maybe they should more properly be seen as red flags.”

Earlier ACY had begun this exchange by a speculating a two-part reason for the Lac Megantic runaway.  The first part was that the engineer was tired because he was working solo, and that may have caused him to not set enough brakes.  Clearly he is referring to the on-going discussion of changing from two-man crews to one-man crews. 

But in his second part, he extended the blame to the engineer’s supervisors because they should have known that a man working solo would be tired.  Therefore poster ACY asserts that the supervisors should have checked to make sure the engineer has secured the train.  And since they did not check that, they are partly at fault.  So the engineer was too tired to do his job, and that is not totally his fault because he was tired; and the supervisors should have known he was too tired, and made sure the engineer’s job got done.  And since they didn’t, they are at fault for the failure of the engineer.   

I said that the engineer had no right to walk away from his responsibility without telling his supervisors.  Poster ACY said the engineer had no choice because his supervisors would have disciplined the engineer for claiming that he was too tired to perform his responsibility.  In this torturous logic, poster ACY blamed the company for putting him in a bind by requiring him to work solo.   

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, July 26, 2014 9:02 PM

Euclid

zugmann

Euclid
I prefer both.

Which means you only prefer one.

No it does not mean that.

Yes, but!

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:51 PM

zugmann

Euclid
I prefer both.

Which means you only prefer one.

No it does not mean that.

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Posted by schlimm on Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:29 PM

It sees to me that the railroaders are not in a position of expertise when it concerns language.  Maybe we are to defer to your wisdom about railroading but when you make a declarative statement.  It is subject to examination.  Euclid did not alter the meaning of what ACY said.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:28 PM

Euclid
I prefer both.

Which means you only prefer one.

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

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Posted by Euclid on Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:12 PM

Murphy Siding

Euclid

 

The fact that I paraphrased your comments rather than directly quoting you does not change your meaning.

  Wouldn't  it be simpler to just let others posters say what they mean, without you having to say what you think they mean? Whistling

I prefer both.

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:03 PM

Murphy Siding

Euclid

 

The fact that I paraphrased your comments rather than directly quoting you does not change your meaning.

  Wouldn't  it be simpler to just let others posters say what they mean, without you having to say what you think they mean? Whistling

 

Well I don't care if Mars is the red planet, if I want to patch tires, I'll just stop eating.

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Posted by RRKen on Saturday, July 26, 2014 8:01 PM

BaltACD

Murray

Yes....but...

butt... but

Roast Butt, it's what for dinner tomorrow.

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Posted by BaltACD on Saturday, July 26, 2014 5:44 PM

Murray

Yes....but...

butt... but

Never too old to have a happy childhood!

              

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Posted by Anonymous on Saturday, July 26, 2014 5:29 PM

Yes....but...

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Posted by zugmann on Saturday, July 26, 2014 5:00 PM

Murphy Siding

 Wouldn't  it be simpler to just let others posters say what they mean, without you having to say what you think they mean? Whistling

So what you mean is that you would like some chocolate ice cream on your pancakes as you change flat tires?

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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