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RR 2014 capacity expansion limitations ?

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Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, July 19, 2014 5:41 PM

That is what I suspected.  Is that still the case today ?  guess  it is a real engineering challenge to know what size plates to use on relay ?  Is it fairly standard for each RR to use certain sizes for each size bottom of the rail ?

Any more, the industry is pretty much standardized on 115-136-141 (3rd Mod)....since the 1990's. Again, it's efficiency of the scale of manufacture/ economy of scale and marketplace forces in play. (one of the casualties was UP's obsession with 133# rail and the head-free rail sections favored before the last big batch of mergers)...Secondhand plates were often unable to be cascaded forward (along with the anchors failing to hold during wear.) Supply and demand often create struggles that the engineering manager was often hard pressed to deal with (thus the comments about wasted money spent on "shiny toys", usually caused by the track department being forced to eat the cost over-runs of the mechanical side of the family -  ever seen the comment about the "railroad operating budgets being balanced on the back of the track department?") For whatever reason, when cascading rail, the OTM fails to match the footage of rail re-used. Purchasing agents frequently could not make up the difference buying new to replace lost or damaged salvageable SH material. Not quite looked at the same way as joint bars and spikes (bolts are one and done, generally torched during salvage)

It's an FRA major bozo-no no to use the wrong OTM for the wrong size rail, It can get pretty nitpicky when barring 112/115# rail. (source of controversy to this day, the differences in fishing are virtually nil. PDN has also witnessed this) Punching extra holes in 110# single shoulder plates to be used on 90# rail (5 1/2"base to 5 3/16" base plates caused problems with my ChEng and FRA more than once.)

I'm working on a Chicago area project where the railroad abandoned by 2003 and there is track still out there, not salvaged (and no this is not the ex CR Ft Wayne line and that lesson in the whims of operating logic -it's not abandoned and about to have new life)for 9+ miles (mostly 105 and 110# rail that has no future... and now the trees are taking it over. Cost of actually salvaging the track steel exceeds its worth even at $600-$900 a ton. Had to survey that with a chain saw and a machete.(GPS hates trees)

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:55 PM

mudchicken

blue streak 1

mudchicken

. NS is running out of backtracks to put the secondhand CWR into, especially without suitable sized OTM (especially tie plates) to work with.

MC:::  how many different dimensions of tie plates are there ?s Way too many to count, esp secondhand sections 90# and below. Everybody had a different idea of the optimal solution (and thought ASCE was not realistic) Part of the problem was the number of different rail mills with different manufacturing parameters. (heavy steel manufacturing was in its infancy)

 

That is what I suspected.  Is that still the case today ?  guess  it is a real engineering challenge to know what size plates to use on relay ?  Is it fairly standard for each RR to use certain sizes for each size bottom of the rail ?

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Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:27 PM

blue streak 1

mudchicken

. NS is running out of backtracks to put the secondhand CWR into, especially without suitable sized OTM (especially tie plates) to work with.

MC:::  how many different dimensions of tie plates are there ?s Way too many to count, esp secondhand sections 90# and below. Everybody had a different idea of the optimal solution (and thought ASCE was not realistic) Part of the problem was the number of different rail mills with different manufacturing parameters. (heavy steel manufacturing was in its infancy)

1.  Guess it will depend on rail base width ? Oversimplified, but yes

2.  Tie plate length and width  ? Long toe or short toe, cut spike or elastic fastener?

3.  thickness ? MGT? age? corrosion? cant?, friction? local temp range?

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by blue streak 1 on Saturday, July 19, 2014 3:09 PM

mudchicken

. NS is running out of backtracks to put the secondhand CWR into, especially without suitable sized OTM (especially tie plates) to work with.

MC:::  how many different dimensions of tie plates are there ?s 

1.  Guess it will depend on rail base width ?

2.  Tie plate length and width  ?

3.  thickness ?

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Posted by mudchicken on Saturday, July 19, 2014 2:43 PM

There are two, sometimes three, CWR assembly yards on the grounds of Ervaz/RMSM (CF&I) working full time. One of those lines was Santa Fe's CRWP that is now Progress Rail's. Very common, almost daily, to see rail trains headed east or north out of Minnequa/ Pueblo along with dozens of modified 89' TOFC flats w/ bathtup bulkheads hauling 80 ft sticks of new blank rail, probably to mobile flash but welders along with CWR plants that are still functioning. There are more rail-trains and mini-rail trains out there then there are threader and ramp cars. Follow the threader/ramp cars to see where the next unloading/loading operation is probably at.

Rail going into yards is almost always cascaded down from main track rail relays, rarely ever new rail -except in certain switching leads. NS is running out of backtracks to put the secondhand CWR into, especially without suitable sized OTM (especially tie plates) to work with.

What can you stick on a tie plate for 5 1/12 base width (112-115, 119#  and certain 100, 101, 105,110 sections) versus a 6 inch base (130-141#)....things start getting strange. 122 or 127, 155, crane rail? - good luck, oddball. (have fun getting switch material frogs, points & stockrails, too!)

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Over sized rail? (Please explain. If you mean 132# or 136# rail because it's cheaper on the spot market than 115# at times???, especially some of the Japanese, European and Russian rail dumped on occasion in the US) Market forces create strange bedfellows.

 

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by Paul_D_North_Jr on Saturday, July 19, 2014 11:46 AM

As just a quick partial reply to blue streak 1's comprehensive list of questions above:

From Norfolk Southern's STB R-1 report for 2013, dated March 2014 (141 pages, 2.0 MB) at:

 
In particular, see Schedules 720 - 726 on pages 85 - 91 (pages 100 - 106 of 116 of this 'PDF" version):  

Table 723. says that 701.58 'rail-miles' of new welded rail was installed [takes 2 'rail-miles' for each 'track-mile'].

Another 258.96 rail-miles of 'relay" [used] rail was reinstalled elsewhere [Line No. 6, columns (b), (d), and (f); and Schedule 726., Line No. 6, column (f) ]. 

Notably, more than 1/4 of the rail replaced was the used or second-hand rail [258.96 / 987.64 rail-miles =  26.22 %].

From NS' 2013 "Sustainability Report" for 2012, "Recycling Railroad Materials" at: http://nssustainability.com/2013_sustainability_report/environmental_performance/recycling_railroad_materials_and_crossites_for_energy.html 

It says 466 miles of rail [roughly 56,000 tons, based on 136 lbs. per yard average rail size / weight] was purchased for replacement in 2012.
 
Also, that 126,283 tons of metal was recycled, as well as 200,128 tons of scrap steel.  No further break-down is provided - but it's likely that any scrap rail was included in that total, as well as a lot of scrapped equipment, etc. 
 
- Paul North. 
"This Fascinating Railroad Business" (title of 1943 book by Robert Selph Henry of the AAR)
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Posted by dehusman on Friday, July 18, 2014 9:27 PM

I'm kinda wondering what the problem is, its July, over half way through the 2014 year and no projects I have seen have been delayed, everything is on time or better with regards to construction.

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Posted by BaltACD on Friday, July 18, 2014 9:00 PM

blue streak 1

 At one time SOU RR had a welding plant at Inman yard in Atlanta ( 1970s ? ).  Not only did they weld new rail but had old stick rail come in; have joint bar ends cropped; and would then weld the sticks to make relay on secondary lines.  Do any of the RRs now do this or is what ever stick left not worth welding for yards, sidings, and other very low density.  Or might sell to some short line ??

 

note; added to post about rail

CSX still has a rail plant at Raceland, KY that welds reclaimed stick rail as well as welding up new rail.

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 18, 2014 8:44 PM

 At one time SOU RR had a welding plant at Inman yard in Atlanta ( 1970s ? ).  Not only did they weld new rail but had old stick rail come in; have joint bar ends cropped; and would then weld the sticks to make relay on secondary lines.  Do any of the RRs now do this or is what ever stick left not worth welding for yards, sidings, and other very low density.  Or might sell to some short line ??

 

note; added to post about rail

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 18, 2014 6:33 PM

Would like to address one item noted  in replies. That is limitations of availability of new rail.

11   RAIL MILL  -- What is the production capacity of the rail mill ?.  Is it tons, feet of rail, rail weight or combination ,?  does rail size effect total output, Are rail weights outputs interchangeable or is there a set rate or minimum of each weight ?  

12.  Any idea what the order back log is at the mill ?

13.  Noted new rail dropped 2 - 5 days before installation.  Have others so noted ? 

14.  Have seen posts noting pick up of dropped rail for use elsewhere.  Any posters so noting.?.

15.  What is the desired maintenance interval for rails such as grinding ?  Is it so many gross tons

16.  Is the extra traffic causing rescheduling  of rail replacement. or is it just being worn more or a combination.?

17.  Main track replaced rail can go where ?  Yards, spurs, etc ?  What did UP's new yard get ? NS? North Baltimore ?

18.  What kind replacement criteria for various rail weights ?

19.  Are commuter and light rail installations using over weight rail. ?

20.  Does rail need more maintenance as it wears ?

EDIT;   At one time SOU RR had a welding plant at Inman yard in Atlanta ( 1970s ? ).  Not only did they weld new rail but had old stick rail come in; have joint bar ends cropped; and would then weld the sticks to make relay on secondary lines.  Do any of the RRs now do this or is what ever stick left not worth welding for yards, sidings, and other very low density.  Or might sell to some short line ??

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Posted by Anonymous on Friday, July 18, 2014 3:08 PM

If the context - background - over shadows the message, it becomes the message, and the intended message is frequently lost.  If one wants to say something meaningful, the message should always trump the context.

The purpose of communication is to influence  the thoughts and behavior of the person(s) for whom the message is intended. If the intended recipients are turned off by the background, or if the message is overly complex, the sender will have failed irrespective of how pure his or her motives.

If I know who is sending the message, and he or she has established credibility with me in particular, or his audience in general, I am more likely to pay attention.  If I don't know the sender, and the background overwhelms the message, I am likely to move on.

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Posted by oltmannd on Friday, July 18, 2014 2:32 PM

schlimm

Insulting remarks and showing utter contempt for others is not going to help you.  Nor is highlighting your remarks in blood red.

The red made for tough sledding, but when MC squawks, I listen (and learn)!    Content >> tone.

-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Friday, July 18, 2014 12:48 PM

dehusman

Depends if you see it as a problem or not.  The question not asked is why is there a "shortage" of these trains?    Engineering capital budgets are the highest they have even been.  This isn't a matter of not being able to do the normal work it 's a matter of how much additional work can they do above the "normal" plan compared to the last decade or so. 

 

 
This thread is not about trains it is about shortage of capital expansion materials.  Am composing a later post about what seems the most pressing need is rail and track material. Other items later. 
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Posted by dehusman on Friday, July 18, 2014 6:38 AM

blue streak 1

Institutional  knowledge and supplies are very important from what has been posted on this thread.  Why has others on this forum not seen that this problem exists ?   Maybe we can divert our observations to this construction problem ?

 
Depends if you see it as a problem or not.  The question not asked is why is there a "shortage" of these trains?  Its because the railroads are doing so MUCH maintenance and expansion that they have fully utilized the equipment.  Engineering capital budgets are the highest they have even been.  This isn't a matter of not being able to do the normal work it 's a matter of how much additional work can they do above the "normal" plan compared to the last decade or so.  This isn't deferred maintenance, its how much can be pulled ahead.
 
If you had 10 more ballast trains, would you have the tampers to use it?  With traffic increasing would the operating department be willing to shut down 5 more subdivisions for 6 hours a day to do the tamping?

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Posted by zugmann on Friday, July 18, 2014 5:30 AM

blue streak 1
I certainty was not offended.

Man, all that drama for nothing!

It's been fun.  But it isn't much fun anymore.   Signing off for now. 


  

The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any

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Posted by blue streak 1 on Thursday, July 17, 2014 10:38 PM

Spent day at hospital so wow

MC:  HOT BUTTON  EH ?    Mudchicken has hit the nail on the head of items this poster was concerned.  Ballast trains had not been used here lately so can see why did not know they were in short supply.   I certainty was not offended. In fact it is important that we know that is a major problem.  Appears this is a very important fact of what can be accomplished this year ?   Why has Trains not seen this coming on ?  Fred Frailey you need to investigate these limitations ?

Institutional  knowledge and supplies are very important from what has been posted on this thread.  Why has others on this forum not seen that this problem exists ?   Maybe we can divert our observations to this construction problem ?

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Posted by SALfan on Thursday, July 17, 2014 8:25 PM
Would like to hear Mudchicken's opinion, but IMHO the lack of qualified people for all phases of the project may be the most serious problem of those listed. It affects all phases of the project, even figuring out how to finance the project, design it, procure it, administer the contract (both the administrative and technical issues) plus finding qualified people to do the actual work and manage the project on the contractor's side. If you don't have qualified people, or have qualified people who are spread too thin, you are going to have problems.
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Posted by greyhounds on Thursday, July 17, 2014 5:05 PM

mudchicken

.

Staggers happened at least 30 years too late. Preconceived notions die hard deaths and never go away ( seem to show up here daily on the forum as espoused by some of the legends in their own little minds). It's also plenty obvious that the public transit side wnting to use freight rail for their narrow minded purposes are clueless about corridor capacity and long term sustained maintenance. (Colorado is at the front of the pack there)

Yes,  Staggers (deregulation) happened At Least 30 years too late.  The economic regulation put the US railroads in a survival mode and left them unable to serve their market efficiently, including expanding and growing with the economy.  They're still playing catch up.

I'd say Staggers was more like 60 years too late.

.

"By many measures, the U.S. freight rail system is the safest, most efficient and cost effective in the world." - Federal Railroad Administration, October, 2009. I'm just your average, everyday, uncivilized howling "anti-government" critic of mass government expenditures for "High Speed Rail" in the US. And I'm gosh darn proud of that.
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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, July 17, 2014 4:46 PM

RRKen

mudchicken

5.  Signals,  - Bungalows, signals, masts, PTC and ABS equipment ? ? ....There is a little competition from the transit/ toy train side of the fence - RSSI is reporting a banner year. Just like everywhere else, qualified workforce has aged and next generation is late in arriving. Institutional memory is retiring faster than it can be replaced.

Many of us have been talking for two decades about the "Institutional Memory " departing, and  the lack of replacement (due to many accounts).   The gap, is not perceived, but real.  I hope Zug shares his observations on this.

Part of the 'Congestion Problem' that the carriers are currently experiencing is because of the lost Institutional Memory, with the 'Powers in Charge' never having had to deal with this situation (that has occurred from time to time over the years) and having to reinvent the wheel to come up with solutions.  Added to that is the internal politics of computer derived numbers (or metrix); in many cases todays managers only know how to manage the numbers - not how to manage the moving objects and manpower that moves the objects that generate the numbers.

One bad operational decision can take a day or more to recover from.  A derailment or other form of resource denial can take a week or more to recover.  You can't just turn off the lights like you can on a Christmas Garden train layout - you have to work through that bad decision or happening and strive to get the operation back to being fluid. It is not neat, it is not clean, it is not easy and it requires utilization of all the resources that are available - power, manpower, tracks.

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Posted by RRKen on Thursday, July 17, 2014 4:34 PM

schlimm

Insulting remarks and showing utter contempt for others is not going to help you.  Nor is highlighting your remarks in blood red.

I saw no contempt.  I did see someone creating a problem where none existed.

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Posted by RRKen on Thursday, July 17, 2014 4:30 PM

mudchicken

5.  Signals,  - Bungalows, signals, masts, PTC and ABS equipment ? ? ....There is a little competition from the transit/ toy train side of the fence - RSSI is reporting a banner year. Just like everywhere else, qualified workforce has aged and next generation is late in arriving. Institutional memory is retiring faster than it can be replaced.

Many of us have been talking for two decades about the "Institutional Memory " departing, and  the lack of replacement (due to many accounts).   The gap, is not perceived, but real.  I hope Zug shares his observations on this.

I never drink water. I'm afraid it will become habit-forming.
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Posted by Anonymous on Thursday, July 17, 2014 4:01 PM

Personally I find it wonderfully refreshing that so many different people on the forum are now putting Schlimm in his place.

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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:55 PM

To corrupt the old saying -

Why be thought of as a fool, when you can open your mouth and prove it beyond any doubt.

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Posted by Murphy Siding on Thursday, July 17, 2014 2:36 PM

schlimm

Insulting remarks and showing utter contempt for others is not going to help you.  Nor is highlighting your remarks in blood red.

   Well I'm just offended that you're offended.  In fact, I find it offensive that you are taking offenseSurprise

       I work in the construction industry, so maybe I'm more used to a different way of communicating. You learn to have thick skin, and not get all bent out of shape about the way something is presented. There really is something to be said for folks who tell it like it is.  I'd rather  hear it straight from someone who knows what he's talking about, than hear something wishy-washy from  who feels that each and every word has to be considered so we don't hurt anyone's feelings.

Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.

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Posted by mudchicken on Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:49 PM

schlimm

Insulting remarks and showing utter contempt for others is not going to help you.  Nor is highlighting your remarks in blood red.

Being that you seem to be insulted that some of us won't run in lockstep with your thin skinned POV: Suck it up, Cupcake. I wasn't speaking in specifics. Check the ego at the door.

 

Mudchicken Nothing is worth taking the risk of losing a life over. Come home tonight in the same condition that you left home this morning in. Safety begins with ME.... cinscocom-west
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Posted by BaltACD on Thursday, July 17, 2014 12:38 PM

schlimm

Deggesty

MC, I found it hard to read your remarks when I first saw your reply, in my Email. When I came to the site, they were easier to read (apparently larger font, perhaps?)--but, please, use a more contrasting color.

I saw nothing insulting or any contempt in your remarks; all I saw was information.

Information only?  Conclusions, opinions and name-calling:

"Preconceived notions die hard deaths and never go away ( seem to show up here daily on the forum as espoused by some of the legends in their own little minds). It's also plenty obvious that the public transit side wanting to use freight rail for their narrow minded purposes are clueless about corridor capacity and long term sustained maintenance. "

Mudchicken is normally highly knowledgeable and very polite.  Maybe he's having a bad day, but if any of us non-railroaders referred to railroaders using similar terms, there would be a flurry of nasty insults.

I would appear only Legends would be insulted and none were identified until they came forth to do it for Mc.

Some individuals need to get over themselves.

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Posted by schlimm on Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:34 AM

Deggesty

MC, I found it hard to read your remarks when I first saw your reply, in my Email. When I came to the site, they were easier to read (apparently larger font, perhaps?)--but, please, use a more contrasting color.

I saw nothing insulting or any contempt in your remarks; all I saw was information.

Information only?  Conclusions, opinions and name-calling:

"Preconceived notions die hard deaths and never go away ( seem to show up here daily on the forum as espoused by some of the legends in their own little minds). It's also plenty obvious that the public transit side wanting to use freight rail for their narrow minded purposes are clueless about corridor capacity and long term sustained maintenance. "

Mudchicken is normally highly knowledgeable and very polite.  Maybe he's having a bad day, but if any of us non-railroaders referred to railroaders using similar terms, there would be a flurry of nasty insults.

C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan

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Posted by diningcar on Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:18 AM
Mudchicken is one of the few (perhaps the only one) at this site that has many, many years of railroad engineering and track maintenance experience. I have known him since the mid-1980's and he was doing those things at that time. Yes, he will be very candid and may ruffle some feelings. He has worked under operating department supervision who could not hit their backside with either hand regarding track maintenance but they were the "boss". It would serve us all well to heed his thoughts and ideas.
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Posted by NorthWest on Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:04 AM

Thanks. It is good to hear from those that are actually on the front lines of railroading.

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