Amtrak and the Freight Roads

[BaltACD]

Sam1

Here is an Amtrak/Freight Railroad question that hopefully one of the professional railroad participants can answer.

This afternoon I drove over to Granger, TX, to watch Number 21 go through.  It is due to stop at Taylor, TX at 5:36 p.m., so it usually goes through Granger about 5:10 to 5:15 p.m. Today it was 1.5 hours late and did not arrive at Taylor until 7:03 p.m.

When I got to Granger I saw a northbound UP freight train waiting on the siding. The conductor told me that the train had taken the siding at approximately 4:30 p.m. Given that Number 21 was 1.5 hours late, that means that the freight train was not able to get underway until approximately 6:45 p.m. In other words, it sat in the hole for more than two hours.

The freight had three locomotives, i.e. a contract GP 50 - I think, a UP SD70M, and what appeared to be an CN AC4400.  I am the first to admit that I am not a diesel locomotive watcher, but these are close. They were idling for more than two hours.  How much fuel would they have consumed during that period?  And will Amtrak reimburse them for the cost of the wasted fuel?

On my carrier, if the wait is KNOWN to be over 30 minutes, one engine is to be left running to supply air to the train.  The others are to be shut down for fuel conservation.  Crew is to ask the Dispatcher for a figure on the arrival of the clearing train for the meet so that the shut down engines can be restarted so the train can depart upon the arrival of the clearing train.  The Weed Weaseals do efficiency tests on this.

[Eddie Sand]

The original poster might find some interesting reading if he were able to access an Employees Timetable or two from the days when the railroads were the dominant mode for all freight traffic -- really not all tat long ago.

Until the widespread adaptation of Centralized Traffic Control (CTC), the railroads scheduled freight as well as passenger trains, and the meeting points and times were designated and usually called attention to by printing in bold type, The inferior freight moves had the responsibility never to pass those points (or to keep themselves out of the way if they fell behind schedule and a superior train was approaching (and more likely to be on time due to its higher priority).

This system could then be over-ruled by written orders. but things could easily get out of hand if unforeseen events, such as mechanical problems or severe weather disrupted plans.

The arrangement was further complicated by technological advances, particularly Dieselization. Freights in the steam era were usually limited to the 75-or-so cars a "late-model" steam loco could handle,  so "second sections" were more common, and passing sidings limited to a similar capacity. The development of "multiple unit" controls gave the freight roads  a stronger incentive for longer trains so, even if a freight arrived early for a meet with a much-shorter passenger  move, it would occupy a much of the siding as possible, let the passenger run "hold the main", then pull ahead until the opposite switch was clear.

In rare instances, two freights would both be too long for the passing track, but the meet could still be accomplished by breaking one train into tow halves and working them through the siding one at a time (a process sometimes called a "saw-by"), This was still being regularly practiced on BNSF's line between Lincoln, NE and Sioux City, IA, with the meet usually set at Oakland, NE, when I worked in the area c.2000.

Finally, it might be noted that during the Forties and Fifties, several major roads, most notably Southern and Southern Pacific, assigned first-class (passenger) status to a handful of high-priority freight moves

[n012944]

Figure around 6 gallons of fuel per unit per hour at idle.

[dehusman]

Sam1

 And will Amtrak reimburse them for the cost of the wasted fuel?

No.

[Anonymous]

Here is an Amtrak/Freight Railroad question that hopefully one of the professional railroad participants can answer.

This afternoon I drove over to Granger, TX, to watch Number 21 go through.  It is due to stop at Taylor, TX at 5:36 p.m., so it usually goes through Granger about 5:10 to 5:15 p.m. Today it was 1.5 hours late and did not arrive at Taylor until 7:03 p.m.

When I got to Granger I saw a northbound UP freight train waiting on the siding. The conductor told me that the train had taken the siding at approximately 4:30 p.m. Given that Number 21 was 1.5 hours late, that means that the freight train was not able to get underway until approximately 6:45 p.m. In other words, it sat in the hole for more than two hours.

The freight had three locomotives, i.e. a contract GP 50 - I think, a UP SD70M, and what appeared to be an CN AC4400.  I am the first to admit that I am not a diesel locomotive watcher, but these are close. They were idling for more than two hours.  How much fuel would they have consumed during that period?  And will Amtrak reimburse them for the cost of the wasted fuel?

[henry6]

Employee Timetables in the US show same schedules as public timetables except in Penn Station and GCT both in NY where public schedules leaving the terminals are a minute earlier than employee table shows. Additional times shown in employee schedules are at interlocking stations, control points, block stations, block limit station, etc, and will indicate whether or not it is a stop or not. Today, too, both public and employee schedules may indicate that a train may leave a station stop before the scheduled time. This is usually during peak or rush hours when there usually are no passengers to be picked up and frequency of trains is short. Today, too, employee timetables do not have schedules of train but all the other information employee timetables used to have; a special employee schedule is published when schedules change and is a cheaper practice than having to publish the extra pages for rules, instructions, and fixed plant locations and speeds.

[schlimm]

But even so, the times given for the Pennsy are only given on the minute.

[wanswheel]

Engineering News and American Contract Journal, August 19, 1882

Every railroad issues two time tables whenever the running time of trains is changed -- one table for the public and one for the guidance of engineers and trainmen. The main difference between the two is that the schedule for the employes contains the time of every train at every station on its route, whereas the schedule for the public gives the time at places where the trains stop. Dots and daggers and letters alongside of the time figures explain to the engineer and conductor at what points and why he is to stop. The absence of these show that the train is not to stop at all. There is naturally nothing about the conduct of a railroad on which more time and care are spent than these time tables, and the growth of railroading between the period not many years ago, when the Philadelphia Express was held at Newark or elsewhere for some regular passenger who had been belated, and the present time, when trains that run distances of 500 miles can be relied on at any point on their route to be on schedule time, is shown most clearly in the equal growth of the time table. The half minute appears for the first time in the schedule about to be issued for New York Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad. Minutes had been fine enough divisions of time before. It is explained that the half minute has forced itself into recognition. Modern railroading is so fast, stations have grown so close together, and the movement of trains has become so regular, that this fine division of time not only can but has to be made. Nothing greater than half a minute will apply to a train running at the rate of 60 miles an hour between New Brunswick and East Brunswick stations, which are just half a mile apart.

Official Railway Guide, September 1882

The most recently proposed form of book time tables is originated with Mr. Chas. Watts, train master of the New York Division of the Pennsylvania Railroad.

Heretofore the sheet form has been exclusively used on this road and it has grown to be a sheet thirty inches in width by twenty-five in depth, and is only kept at those dimensions by printing all Sunday trains on the back. If all these trains were shown on the face of the sheet it would be about seventy inches in width, and a second edition of the famous Potsdam Guards of Frederick William of Prussia would be required as employés. Mortals of ordinary size would be unable to grasp the respective edges of the sheet with any hope of detecting a particular figure in the middle. The book which Mr. Watts proposes to substitute is about four inches in width by nine inches in length -- just a convenient size for the pocket.

Each page contains the column of stations and of distances and the schedule for six trains. The figures are read downward upon the left hand page and upward on the right hand, the same hours as nearly as practicable being represented upon the pages facing each other.

Every station upon the road is named and the time given at all points, those of minor importance having been previously omitted from the employés schedule. The introduction of the names of these minor stations -- many of them less than a mile apart -- has rendered necessary the introduction of the half minute for the first time in the history of railways in this country, if not in the world, in a railway time table...

http://books.google.com/books?id=NKhCAQAAIAAJ&pg=RA2-PR43&dq=en&sa=X&ei=tnWkU6fUNISoyASE3ILwDg&ved=0CDoQ6AEwBjgy#v=onepage&q=en&f=true

[schlimm]

Personal Timetable
(valid from 20.06.2014 to 13.12.2014)
Stralsund Hbf bk Berlin Hbf (tief)
Dep Journey Arr Change Dep Journey Arr Dur. Servicedays
3:23 RE 18323 5:19 Angermunde ¨ 5:33 RE 18343 6:29 3:06 Mo
4:14 RE 18305 7:29 3:15 daily
5:02 RE 18505 8:14 3:12 daily
6:02 RE 13053 7:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 8:01 RE 4355 9:11 3:09 Mo - Sa
6:14 RE 18307 9:29 3:15 daily
7:02 RE 18507 10:11 3:09 daily
7:27 IC 2217 x 8:15 Rostock Hbf 8:34 RE 4357 11:11 3:44 Sa, Su pa
8:02 RE 13205 9:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 10:01 RE 4357 11:11 3:09 Mo - Sa
8:14 RE 18309 11:29 3:15 daily
9:02 RE 18509 12:14 3:12 daily
9:18 IC 2356 x 12:04 2:46 not every day ps
9:27 IC 2089 x 10:19 Rostock Hbf 10:34 RE 4359 13:11 3:44 not every day pd
9:36 IC 2356 x 12:21 2:45 daily pf
10:02 RE 13055 11:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 12:01 RE 4359 13:11 3:09 Mo - Sa
10:14 RE 18311 13:29 3:15 daily
11:02 RE 18511 14:11 3:09 daily
11:40 EC 379 y 14:26 2:46 daily pg
12:02 RE 13209 13:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 14:01 RE 4361 15:13 3:11 Mo - Sa
12:14 RE 18313 15:29 3:15 daily
13:02 RE 18513 16:14 3:12 daily
13:25 IC 2377 x 14:19 Rostock Hbf 14:33 EC 179 y 16:34 3:09 not every day ph
13:25 IC 2287 x 14:19 Rostock Hbf 14:33 X 68904 g 16:58 3:33 not every day pd
13:25 IC 2377 x 14:19 Rostock Hbf 14:33 X 68904 g 16:58 3:33 not every day pj
14:02 RE 13057 15:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 16:01 RE 4363 17:14 3:12 daily
14:14 RE 18315 17:30 3:16 daily
15:02 RE 18515 18:13 3:11 daily
15:27 IC 2289 x 16:19 Rostock Hbf 16:34 RE 4365 19:12 3:45 not every day pd
15:27 IC 2379 x 16:19 Rostock Hbf 16:34 RE 4365 19:12 3:45 not every day pk
16:02 RE 13211 17:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 18:01 RE 4365 19:12 3:10 Mo - Fr, Su
16:14 RE 18317 19:30 3:16 daily
17:02 RE 18517 20:14 3:12 daily
17:27 IC 1989 18:19 Rostock Hbf 18:31 RE 18591 20:49 3:22 Su
18:02 RE 13059 19:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 20:01 RE 4367 21:11 3:09 Mo - Fr, Su
18:23 RE 18319 21:28 3:05 daily
19:02 RE 18519 22:15 3:13 daily
19:15 RE 18593 22:00 2:45 not every day pl
19:26 UBB 29437 K2 19:49 Greifswald 20:01 IC 61258 22:12 2:46 not every day q0
20:02 RE 13213 21:57 Neustrelitz Hbf 22:01 RE 4369 23:14 3:12 Mo - Fr, Su
20:14 RE 18321 23:28 3:14 daily qa
Index
pa = also 3., 31. Oct
All information is issued without liability
Softwareversion/Dataversion: HAFAS-p2w-V1.4/ DATAalls06 - 20.06.14ps = 7. until 20. Jul; not 14. until 18. Jul
pd = 20. Jun until 27. Jul
pf = not 7. until 13. Jul, 19., 20. Jul
pg = not 12., 19., 26., 27. Jul, 23., 24. Aug
ph = 2. Aug until 1. Nov Sa; not 23. Aug
pj = 28. Jul until 13. Dec
pk = 28. Jul until 11. Dec Mo - Th, Su; 2. Aug until 4. Oct Mo - Th, Sa, Su; not 2. Oct; also 3. Oct
pl = 21. Jun until 2. Nov Sa, Su; also 3. Oct
q0 = 5. Jul until 30. Aug Sa
qa = not 30. Jun
legend
x = Bordbistro
y = Bordrestaurant
g = SnackPoint/Snacks on board the train
K2 = 2nd class only

[billio]

henry6

We are lazy and apathetic in this country.

Ho Hum.  Yawn.  Think I'll grab me another beer...

[schlimm]

henry6

OK, Schlimm. All the Trains Magazine articles I have read about European schedules, etc. have shown departures at the half minute marks. Either I lie or hallucinate.

I do not recall what some Trains articles have said.  You may or may not remember correctly.  What i do know is based on 48 years of extensive riding of passenger trains in Germany, Italy, Austria, Belgium and the UK, most recently this May.  And I have shown you a current TT for the SBB from Bern.   You could easily look at the schedules of all of those countries for yourself online, if you choose not to take my word or CJtrains.   In Germany, printed schedules are becoming much less common, as most folks check and buy tickets online.   Additionally, on the Arrival/Departure boards in large stations such as Berlin and on platform signs, the time in seconds is not given. Dwell time is often only 2 minutes at intermediate stations.  Is it just possible you are the one who erred?

[Murphy Siding]

henry6

We are lazy and apathetic in this country.

    And hand basket production is falling behind as well.

[CJtrainguy]

I have a good collection of European timetables dating back to the 70s and have spend lots of time on passenger trains in Europe. I have never run across any published departure that included seconds. 

Odd minutes, sure, such as 18:37. That happens all the time. And many a time you can watch the second hand move up towards the minute mark and right on the dot the whistle blows, the doors close and the train departs.

I seem to recall an order maybe 10 years ago in Germany that doors would be closed 30 seconds prior to departure time, so that the train could actually roll on the scheduled time.

[henry6]

tree68

henry6

Don't say on time can't be done as we used to achieve it all the time with trains arriving or leaving within the 60 seconds of the minute as advertised.

As I noted - that was when the railroads ran their own passenger service and such service was a source of pride to them.  That's no longer the case.

I would challenge you to plan a trip across a major metropolitan area by car, during a weekday, planned to the minute for several intermediate points as well as your destination.  Odds are you wouldn't take the challenge because you know it would be virtually impossible, especially if you were to use the surface streets.  No detours allowed.

Unless you can arrange for a lights and siren escort, you're not likely to even come close.

So it is with Amtrak.  There was a time when passenger trains got "lights and siren" treatment.  That's not the case today.  NYC and PRR both ran passenger-only tracks on their main trunks.

Of course, you can build some padding into your schedule, "just in case," as Amtrak already does.  Still, one traffic accident along the way and your planning is toast.

Often on our Ridewithmehenry trips on MNRR, NJT, LIRR, Amtrak, and SEPTA we zoom past both moving traffic as well as congested back ups miles long. And even on the subways and light rail we often pass traffic which never seems to catch up. So, yeah, transit is often the quickest way across towns. Where is does slow you down, however, could be when you have to interline, making connections and changing trains and routes. One missed connection can be a short 5 minute wait up to several hours...even to the next day if it's too dark to read your watch!

[henry6]

OK, Schlimm. All the Trains Magazine articles I have read about European schedules, etc. have shown departures at the half minute marks. Either I lie or hallucinate.

[tree68]

henry6

Don't say on time can't be done as we used to achieve it all the time with trains arriving or leaving within the 60 seconds of the minute as advertised.

As I noted - that was when the railroads ran their own passenger service and such service was a source of pride to them.  That's no longer the case.

I would challenge you to plan a trip across a major metropolitan area by car, during a weekday, planned to the minute for several intermediate points as well as your destination.  Odds are you wouldn't take the challenge because you know it would be virtually impossible, especially if you were to use the surface streets.  No detours allowed.

Unless you can arrange for a lights and siren escort, you're not likely to even come close.

So it is with Amtrak.  There was a time when passenger trains got "lights and siren" treatment.  That's not the case today.  NYC and PRR both ran passenger-only tracks on their main trunks.

Of course, you can build some padding into your schedule, "just in case," as Amtrak already does.  Still, one traffic accident along the way and your planning is toast.

[schlimm]

No.  SBB timetable for departures from Bern:

http://www.sbb.ch/content/dam/sbb/de/pdf/fahrplan/gedruckte-fahrplaene/fahrplaene_2014/ab-an-fahrplaene/BN_140615_ab_7000.pdf.spooler.download.pdf 

[henry6]

Then only the Swiss do it.

[schlimm]

henry6

Look at European operations, especially the Swiss and the Germans who publish schedules at half, and even at one time I believe, quarter minute times. Thus 1816:15 or 1816:30 (3:16:15 or 3:16:30) which are adhered to with no hedging.

Although I agree that "on time" should mean "On time" not 15-30 minutes late, as far as I know in May of 2014 when I  was there, the DB (German rail) published schedules on the minute.  AFAIK, in the last 46 years, they were never on the 30 second or 15 second in published timetables. Where in the world did you come up with that tall tale?

[henry6]

We are lazy and apathetic in this country. Don't say on time can't be done as we used to achieve it all the time with trains arriving or leaving within the 60 seconds of the minute as advertised. But that was the buffer. Look at European operations, especially the Swiss and the Germans who publish schedules at half, and even at one time I believe, quarter minute times. Thus 1816:15 or 1816:30 (3:16:15 or 3:16:30) which are adhered to with no hedging.

[tree68]

When the railroads had full control of their own passenger operations, they could see to it that their trains arrived "on the advertised."  Heaven help the freight crew that "stuck" a passenger train (especially a "crack" train).

Today, Amtrak is at the mercy of the railroads over which it runs (except in the NEC).  And there's not much shame in "sticking" an Amtrak train.  So all Amtrak can hope for is that they can come close to what they say they will.

The airlines are in the same boat, if you will.  There are so many flights, and so much interweaving of those flights, that a delay at a given airport can affect flights that will never see that airport.  Too, you have the weather - both locally and at flight level, where a stiff headwind can wreak havoc with flight times.

All told, getting there "close" is probably about as good as we can expect from any transportation source.

[henry6]

The dumbing of America has led to the "I don't care" of America, the good enough is not only good enough but also probably more than we need. Perfection, performance, quality? I'll get to it when and if I danged pleased to do so. The ________________ (train, bus, plane, check) got there didn't it, so quit your complaining.

[blue streak 1]

Sam1

 A train or plane or bus should be considered on-time only if it arrives in the station when the schedule says that it will. Fudging the outcome does not make a lot of sense.

At one time airplanes were on time if arrives within 15 minutes for Federal reportig metrics.

[Deggesty]

I have never comprehended reasoning that declares that a train that does not arrive "on the advertised" can be considered to be on time if it arrives within so many minutes late.

[Anonymous]

blue streak 1

Some one enlighten us.   Isn't Acela on time arrival times less than regular passenger trains ?.  Also the distance the train travels affects how late is still on time ?

The Acela is late if it misses its end point schedule by more than 10 minutes. The other trains in the NEC are late only if they miss their end point arrival times by more than 15 minutes. Some of the long distance trains can be 30 minutes off the advertised and still be counted on-time. The Acela is held to a tighter metric.  Go figure.

In FY13 Keystone, Lynchburg, Capitols, New York to Albany (includes trains that operate only between NYC and Albany), Heartland Flyer, Hiawatha, Carl Sandburg / Illinois Zephyr, Lincoln Service, Missouri Service, Pennsylvanian, and City of New Orleans trains had end-point on-time percentages that ranged from just above the Acela's 85.3 per cent to a system high of 95 per cent for the Capitols.

What the results would look like if the Acela were held to the 15 minute metric like the other trains, or the other trains were held to the 10 minute metric like the Acela, is unknown. A train or plane or bus should be considered on-time only if it arrives in the station when the schedule says that it will. Fudging the outcome does not make a lot of sense.

[blue streak 1]

Some one enlighten us.   Isn't Acela on time arrival times less than regular passenger trains ?.  Also the distance the train travels affects how late is still on time ?

[schlimm]

Sam1

dehusman

The interesting thing is that according to the Amtrak web site, the Acela Express, Amtrak's premier service operating its own trains on its own tracks, dispatched by its own dispatchers over 2-4 main track, grade separated right of way, they are only averaging 75% on time over the last year.

I like to look at the numbers at the end of the fiscal year.  They represent an entire seasonal cycle and are more likely to give a true picture over a long enough period.

In FY13 the Acela's end point on-time performance record was 85.3 per cent, which was down from 89.7 per cent in FY12.  The all stations on-time percentages were 88.7 per cent in FY13 and 92.4 per cent in FY12.

The Northeast Regional trains end-point on-time performance records were 84.2 per cent in FY13 and 86.5 per cent in FY12.  The all stations on-time percentages were 87.5 per cent in FY13 and 88.8 per cent in FY12.

For YTD April 2014, the end point on-time performance for the Acela was 75.6 per cent.  However, YTD April 14 only represents seven months, and it is unduly impacted from the effects of late fall, winter, and early spring weather. Winter 2013-13 saw some of the harshest weather to hit the United States in decades, and it had an impact on the performance of all modes of transport. As the year goes on, with better weather, the on-time performance numbers for the NEC, including the Acela, are likely to come close to those put up in FY12 and FY13.

Don't forget that even on the Amtrak-owned track, commuter trains (and some freight) also have to be accommodated.  And part of the Acela route is on MNRR trackage.

[Anonymous]

dehusman

The interesting thing is that according to the Amtrak web site, the Acela Express, Amtrak's premier service operating its own trains on its own tracks, dispatched by its own dispatchers over 2-4 main track, grade separated right of way, they are only averaging 75% on time over the last year.

I like to look at the numbers at the end of the fiscal year.  They represent an entire seasonal cycle and are more likely to give a true picture over a long enough period.

In FY13 the Acela's end point on-time performance record was 85.3 per cent, which was down from 89.7 per cent in FY12.  The all stations on-time percentages were 88.7 per cent in FY13 and 92.4 per cent in FY12.

The Northeast Regional trains end-point on-time performance records were 84.2 per cent in FY13 and 86.5 per cent in FY12.  The all stations on-time percentages were 87.5 per cent in FY13 and 88.8 per cent in FY12.

For YTD April 2014, the end point on-time performance for the Acela was 75.6 per cent.  However, YTD April 14 only represents seven months, and it is unduly impacted from the effects of late fall, winter, and early spring weather. Winter 2013-14 saw some of the harshest weather to hit the United States in decades, and it had an impact on the performance of all modes of transport. As the year goes on, with better weather, the on-time performance numbers for the NEC, including the Acela, are likely to come close to those put up in FY12 and FY13.

[BaltACD]

The most overlooked aspect of the Amtrak footprint is the amount of space that is required ahead of Amtrak for the train to operate at maximum authorized speed on Clear signals.  Depending on the signal system and the distances between signals - that preceding footprint could be anywhere from 4 to 12 miles.  On a high volume freight railroad, providing that preceding footprint can be very difficult - just because Amtrak is coming, freight trains don't magically disappear.  Parting the waters to facilitate Amtrak's passage can be a exceedingly difficult undertaking from a simple dispatching perspective, couple that with internal company policies and it may be even more difficult.

The implementation of CTC on prior double track territories (at least on my carrier) has forced a change in the prior dispatching philosophy as in the day of Current of Traffic signaling there were directional passing sidings at strategic locations, allowing a freight train being overtaken to 'duck in the clear' and then follow the overtaking train(s) without affecting opposing movements.  With the installation of CTC, in most cases, those sidings have been removed or otherwise rendered unusable for that purpose; to get one train around others moving in the same direction opposing movements will in some way be affected.

[dehusman]

The interesting thing is that according to the Amtrak web site, the Acela Express, Amtrak's premier service operating its own trains on its own tracks, dispatched by its own dispatchers over 2-4 main track, grade separated right of way, they are only averaging 75% on time over the last year.