We have lost trust in this country. Sometime, somewhere along the line, we have to put trust in our employees, our bosses, ourselves. If that trust is not there, there is no trust and no loyalty, just suspicions. In the cab of a locomotive or a semi on the interstate, there has to be this two way trust otherwise Big Brother becomes Big Bother and intrudes on both the trust and ability to perform. This is an unneeded stress added to the work place that pits management against labor which in turn creates even more stress. You at least don't make labor feel like a criminal or a 4 year old who has to be watched carefully. We should work more for PTC, traffic and speed controls, deadman features, and response alerters rather than watching an engineer scratching his crotch or picking his nose. Really, if you itch and fear scratching will give you demerits or loss of the job, you won't do it until it is too late and there could be worse consequences. I prefer another crewman visiting the engineer as often as practicable and observing and being able to take action than looking at a video hours, days, or even weeks later. Of course if you have 100 trains running at any given moment, no one could be watching in them moment anyway. Cameras are a publicity stunt not a safety measure...management and politicians feel good about putting the camera's there but really have not accomplished any measure of safety. What everyone wants is a fortune teller in the cab and we know how well they work.
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I agree with Phoebe Vet for the reasons above, also if the safeguards he mentioned in an earlier post are incorporated. Folks on here set up a false analogy regarding supervision. Most people work at jobs where they are visible to supervisors. Operating employees on trains are generally working in isolation. The are also operating equipment where inattention or sleeping can have dire consequences. Only recently we have an incident on the CTA where the operator fell asleep. Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimm I agree with Phoebe Vet for the reasons above, also if the safeguards he mentioned in an earlier post are incorporated. Folks on here set up a false analogy regarding supervision. Most people work at jobs where they are visible to supervisors. Operating employees on trains are generally working in isolation. The are also operating equipment where inattention or sleeping can have dire consequences. Only recently we have an incident on the CTA where the operator fell asleep. Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.
How do you tie a camera to brakes and power? Time to get real.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD schlimm I agree with Phoebe Vet for the reasons above, also if the safeguards he mentioned in an earlier post are incorporated. Folks on here set up a false analogy regarding supervision. Most people work at jobs where they are visible to supervisors. Operating employees on trains are generally working in isolation. The are also operating equipment where inattention or sleeping can have dire consequences. Only recently we have an incident on the CTA where the operator fell asleep. Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator. How do you tie a camera to brakes and power? Time to get real.
Yes, BaltACD, you have struck on the real delusion of inward cameras: they are not safety features or tools but merely surveillance measures for after the fact act of placing blame. When you know what happened, it is too late to take immediate action.
>Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.<
I would like an explanation of how an inward facing CAMERA could trigger the brakes and/or cut the power reliably, please. I assume you mean this to function reliably without human intervention in any and all 'nodding-off' scenarios. Just a picture and technology.
If you had left out the word "reliably", it could explain it. There were/are some experiments being done in association with facial recognition to detect a drowsy automobile or truck driver. But the last I heard about it, was that it was not "reliable" to the point where it could be used to stop a vehicle if the driver were falling asleep or going into a catatonic state.
First thoughts about inward facing cameras says it is a good idea, but really thinking about the purpose and what can be implemented says that the best possible result is that it might provide evidence that, lacking evidence to the contrary, the engineer and conductor were either asleep or not asleep.
I have read some accident reports, where the crew, who died and thus unable to testify in their own defense, were blamed for the accident due to sleeping or being otherwise inattentive. It is always possible that they were innocent and that could have been proved if there had been a camera showing their actions prior to the accident. But I am not sure there have been, or will be, enough accidents to justify the expense (both in terms of hardware costs AND labor/management relations AND job satisfaction).
I also don't see there being a direct video link from ALL trains to some central location (or even multiple locations) where someone is "watching" for inattentive crew. Not only would the video links be unreliable enough to negate any positive actions, but just how reliable would the crew watching the crew be?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
The point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations. The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera. The cameras could be fake and still make things safer.
Euclid The point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations. The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera. The cameras could be fake and still make things safer.
IOW, management by intimidation. Not the best way to go.
Norm
flmiller >Had there been an inward facing camera tied to the brakes and power, it could have been stopped well short of the escalator.< I would like an explanation of how an inward facing CAMERA could trigger the brakes and/or cut the power reliably, please. I assume you mean this to function reliably without human intervention in any and all 'nodding-off' scenarios. Just a picture and technology.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Norm48327 EuclidThe point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations. The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera. The cameras could be fake and still make things safer. IOW, management by intimidation. Not the best way to go.
EuclidThe point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations. The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera. The cameras could be fake and still make things safer.
Intimidation? People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors. They welcome the recognition.
Here is an example of the Pointing and Calling system used to increase train safety in Japan. If we had this system in use for U.S. railroads, could we rely on the crew faithfully executing the actions without the sense of supervisor observance provided by cameras?
Does this guy seem intimidated?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9LmdUz3rOQU
>The point of the inward cameras is not about watching them to spot violations. The point is to stop violations by making the crew aware of the possibility of being watched by the presence of the camera. The cameras could be fake and still make things safer. <
I really don't think the presence of a camera, fake or not, will keep someone awake if they are sleep-deprived or otherwise 'conscious-impaired', whatever the cause, nor do I think there is evidence that it will. Losing consciousness, for whatever reason, generally isn't a willful act, and a camera won't make any difference. And would a camera affect the actions of an employee prior to their shift? Not likely, since they didn't intend to fall asleep/lose consciousness anyway, knowing the consequences.
And, yes, I used 'reliably' in my statement above on purpose. If a system is to be employed in a mission-critical situation, it must above all else, be reliable. If it isn't, why use it?
Sleep detection device:
http://www.google.com/patents/US5689241
Dave
Lackawanna Route of the Phoebe Snow
flmiller I really don't think the presence of a camera, fake or not, will keep someone awake if they are sleep-deprived or otherwise 'conscious-impaired', whatever the cause, nor do I think there is evidence that it will. Losing consciousness, for whatever reason, generally isn't a willful act, and a camera won't make any difference. And would a camera affect the actions of an employee prior to their shift? Not likely, since they didn't intend to fall asleep/lose consciousness anyway, knowing the consequences.
If the cameras play a role in preventing sleep, that's fine, but that is not expected. Falling asleep is regarded as being beyond willful control, as you say.
The way the sleep issue will be delt with is with testing for shift work disorder, and either successfully treating the employee, or taking him or her out of safety sensitive service. The alternative method of dealing with it is a personal consciousness monitor.
EuclidIntimidation? People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors. They welcome the recognition.
Again I ask, have you ever worked for a class 1?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
OK. We now know\, thanks to Rockefeller at MNRR, that only an exam can reveal sleep apnea and not by the individual's self exam. Therefore, instead of a camera to watch for the engineer to fall asleep, all should be tested or examined or whatever for signs of sleep apnea. We also know abrupt changes in schedules will cause a problem in sleep patterns. A camera isn't going to change that...but a study and program of determining how to change patterns will or should.
I was intrigued, however,by the Japanese over the shoulder camera. Less intrusive and more able to see what is happening outside the cab. But still fairly useless in stopping the train. And, again, how can one person be viewing a hundred or more trains and engineers at once (and without going to sleep himself!). It is totally ludicrous.
A camera beamed at an engineer or motorman cannot be reliable to read a face despite the hocus pocus hype from computer gurus. It makes more sense to attach electric probes to the body to watch for signs of change in temperature, blood pressure, muscle tones, heart rate, brainwaves, etc. But even then each individual is so different each machine would have to be specifically designed to the individual person. A camera is probably only good to watch the engineer get injured or worse but I don't see how it could produce a product quick enough to stop a train.
Only exhibitionists, entertainers, and egos like to be constantly watched. A camera does not produce pride. People would more likely over think a situation, second guess themselves, be looking at the camera rather than ahead, even the red light on the camera can be distracting! It is nothing more than a salve for managers and politicians, and a boom to the surveillance hardware industry.
zugmann EuclidIntimidation? People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors. They welcome the recognition. Again I ask, have you ever worked for a class 1?
Or a boss who is simply out to get everyone? There are those.
Euclid's statement may apply in some Oriental cultures where authority is never challenged, but not here.
Norm48327 zugmann EuclidIntimidation? People who take pride in their work and do a good job at it are not intimidated by being watched by their supervisors. They welcome the recognition. Again I ask, have you ever worked for a class 1? Or a boss who is simply out to get everyone? There are those. Euclid's statement may apply in some Oriental cultures where authority is never challenged, but not here.
Or a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed.
BaltACDOr a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed.
The way you folks talk, you would think you don't have a union. Why does it and the membership agree to the adoption of such a rule book?
schlimm BaltACDOr a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed. The way you folks talk, you would think you don't have a union. Why does it and the membership agree to the adoption of such a rule book?
What railroad permits the union to have a say in the way the rule book is written? None that I am aware of.......
An "expensive model collector"
n012944What railroad permits the union to have a say in the way the rule book is written? None that I am aware of..
Negotiation happens in other industries. Conditions of work are fair game. Why your union only does what it is told it can do by the railroad is perhaps a question you should be asking them.
BaltACD Or a rule book that has been revised from simple declarative rules to one that has been written in the 'gotcha' form of legalese double jepoardy so that no matter what happens, good or bad, someone can be blamed.
Dave H. Painted side goes up. My website : wnbranch.com
It was often the unions that brought about many safety rules and appliances because the investor rail management wouldn't. This is true of other industries, too. I'm not going to get political here by revealing who is behind the lie that the unions didn't do anything.
schlimm Negotiation happens in other industries. Conditions of work are fair game. Why your union only does what it is told it can do by the railroad is perhaps a question you should be asking them.
The "rules" aren't work rules, they are operating rules. Whether you stop at a stop signal or how a brake test is performed, whether you sound a whistle signal, where your authority to proceed on the main track extends to the first or last siding switch are not things to be negotiated.
We can negotiate some of the conditions we work under, but we cannot choose or create operating rules, and as Dave pointed out, the “rules” are just that, operating rules, not work condition or work performed rules.
Case in point, air gauges on the end of trains for the performance of initial terminal air test and yard to yard air test.
We can’t argue the need or use of such gauges….but we can negotiate who hangs that gauge and who performs the air test and under what conditions we can be required to hang the gauge.
In the case of the cameras, that will be federal law, we can’t negotiate them away, but we can try to negotiate when they can be used, who has access to them, under what conditions the cameras will be on, and what the images captured can be used for, (accident investigation, punitive punishment during internal investigations, things such as that) and what degree of privacy will be afforded the crew.
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Thermonuclear reactions aren't as hot as this inward camera subject.
Agreement: with y'all who say they are effectively ineffective in accident prevention, that unions have no say in the operating department's rules content or adaption.
Examples: the terrifying realization that you just can't keep your eyes open, or maintain conciousness, 4 AM, working on a yellow (approach signal) and you've just thrown ice-water on your face.....I've been there...Done that!! And, at Taylor Yard, LA, Ken Miller, SP's rules guru, I can't laud or compliment his integrity or practical app's of the rules, assembled in the early '80s, a seminar to work on and assemble the next western RR's rulebook. I participated and can testify there were no reps from the Brotherhoods, (unions) present.
Please consider the results of a jury seeing 2 time stamped videos: 1 of the engineer or C&E, the other of the crossing they are approaching and, tragically, subsequently slaughter a person or people.
Could, and if they did, would life be saved, if they had acted differently; reasonably could they have been expected to perform thusly?
The cameras, injury law partnerships, D'ya hear Ka-Ching, the RR's cash register emptying?
The problem is we are being recognized by people that may not understand. rockymidlandrr discussed about drying out clothes. So some brand new, fresh out of college manager watches a video and sees a crew member in a trailing engine stripped down to their skivvies. Now will they immediately freak out and try to write the crew member up for "inappropriate apparel"? Of course they can, but anyone who has worked the ground knows what it is like to be caught in a rainstorm and soaked to the bone. It's not like the crew member was flagging a crossing in their tightey-whiteys, but is instead buried deep in a yard track in the middle of nowhere.
Or a crew makes a disparaging remark about a manager while sitting at a stop signal at 3am. Will that trainmaster have thick enough skin to not retaliate? After all, every railroader worth his salt has been called every name in the book by their managers when they have their doors closed.
I think the camera issue could give a new meaning to "work to rule." Mind you, I don't advocate wholesale disregarding of rules, but I'm sure that the rules get bent a little from time to time, in the name of expediency. Most folks value their own health and safety, so it's not like people are going to ignore safety. But if a rule bent just a little makes life better, what the heck?
Not if someone is watching over your shoulder. I's will be dotted and t's will be crossed. If it slows down the job, or even the division, well, that's too bad.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Y'all are missing the big picture here.
Nobody's trying to catch people changing clothes. Nobody's trying to catch somebody calling the manager bad names (there is no audio on the video).
What the railroads are trying to figure out is why trains drive into the rear of the train ahead of them. Why a train gets a 1/4 mile past a red block. Why a crew blows by a red board and runs over a tamper. Why a crew passes an approach and accelerates. Why a crew enters the main track without authority. A very, very very small number of crews do those things, but that tiny fraction is a huge risk to themselves, their co-workers, the public, the customers and the railroad.
Shoving your locomotive 15 cars deep into the train ahead is "not bending the rules".
The guy on the MMA may have bent a few rules, taken a few shortcuts, after all what will happen if you bend a few rules. After all its a little thing, its not like its going to kill 40+ people, level a town, put the railroad in bankruptcy, and put all your other co-workers out of a job.
" But if a rule bent just a little makes life better, what the heck? "
dehusmanNobody's trying to catch people changing clothes. Nobody's trying to catch somebody calling the manager bad names (there is no audio on the video).
Right.,.. because no manager ever abused something for their own gain.
Never.
Nope.
Nada.
zugmann dehusmanNobody's trying to catch people changing clothes. Nobody's trying to catch somebody calling the manager bad names (there is no audio on the video). Right.,.. because no manager ever abused something for their own gain. Never. Nope. Nada.
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