My theory on rail fans and this forum

[cpbloom]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP57313

I'm an observer of railroads and trains etc., not in the business, so I really don't have strong opinions one way or the other on a lot of stuff (It just is. They changed the paint scheme again. Deal with it.).......

My strongest opinions are associated with off-topic subjects so they usually don't show up here

That says it all for me.

[:)] cpbloom lover of Trains/Railroads.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Mookie,

I am not at all contending that people should not disagree with one another. I think arguing and disagreements are what makes the forum what it is. I am just noting that I think some people take it personally when you disagree with them and feel as though their rail soverignty is being challenged.


Gabe

Let me throw my two cents in, in context with the above and the comment you made in your initial post regarding what you are accustomed to seeing in your everyday life, I think you've hit one of the nails on the head without realizing it.

In everyday life, with those of opposed opinion at arms length, one tends to be more warry of what they say, and how they say it, than they do hidden behind the comfort of a VGA screen and keyboard. There are a host of situational factors that play off of this, ...ranging from what you might choose NOT to say out of politeness to someone you have to live next door to--all the way to the concern you might have for a guy busting you one in the kisser if you smarted off back to him in person.......And,.... as they say, --"the million shades of gray in between"

(*unfurling the trout line*) [:D]

In fact, the impression I've formed of defensive antagonists on the internet is that they probably get few opportunities to be "right" in the real world, often in the shadows of bosses who are never wrong, and/or domineering wives and in consequence lead shallow, unrewarding lives...

So, it only stands to reason that such types would be hyperdefensive of the only remaining opportunity available to them to "impress" someone...[;)]

[Anonymous]

True, I was only making a statement for God sake! I wasn't being an *** or nothing.

[n2mopac]

Spirit disagreement is one thing . . . its when they become personal attacks that I think it gets out of hand. I do not understand how some get so emotionally worked up over an impersonal internet forum about a fun hobby like railfanning or model railroading. I don't mind being disagreed with, but I don't appreciate being belittled personally by someone who doesn't know me from Adam just because we disagreen over some topic.

Ron

[kevarc]

I find a lot more civility here than I do on other forums. I am a mod at a few forums (not just RR either). We are pretty liberal at some and iron fisted at others. It is the board owners that set the tone. Mostly we let things run, but as soon as it becomes personal, we warn first and hope the person takes the hint. If not we can and do edit posts, delete posts, and finally if it goes to long without the offender getting a clue, he is banned. The ban may be for a week or it may be permanent. It depends on the offense and the person.

The one thing I see the most is "freedom of speech" issues. I have been accused on more than one occasion of limiting it. The thing is, on private forums like this and the others that I belong to is that these are NOT public forums, but private ones and there is no constitutional right to freedom of speech. You post at the pleasure of the forum owner.

I come here because I like to share things that I have learned over the years and to learn.

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Mookie
That puts them in the spot of being the PR department and if I were them, I wouldn't want to do it either.

You bet. If a stranger with a camera showed up on the property at my employer, my immediate call would be to Security. Would do the same if this person was on the sidewalk of a public street (and let security sort it out with the local police). This is per our company policy, and it has been that way for years.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

I've talked to some,and you would be shocked to what you'll hear.

I am still lost - are you talking railroads or railroaders? My $ is on railroaders, which don't speak for the railroads. And I think a lot of the railroaders have reason to speak rather harshly against some train watchers.

But I also know they are human and most of them will either ignore you or are nice enough to maybe wave. But.....they aren't there to make nice with anyone that happens to wander around the area. That puts them in the spot of being the PR department and if I were them, I wouldn't want to do it either.

So bottom line, maybe the bad feelings are well-deserved. Maybe we haven't been 1st class citizens around them.

Mookie

[Anonymous]

I've talked to some,and you would be shocked to what you'll hear.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by BNSF railfan.

Now you know how the Railroads feel about us.

Let's go in a corner and you tell me more about the above statement. I just need a clarification. How do you think they feel about us?

Mook

[Anonymous]

Now you know how the Railroads feel about us.

[edblysard]

No need, it was just done for me![:D]

QUOTE: Originally posted by MP57313

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard
[when someone's statement of fact is challenged, they do seem to become defensive, but I would guess thats more of a personality defect than anything else.

Take it as a challenge to re-verify your statement or clarify your points

[Rick Gates]

I agree with you Gabe, and Mookie also. This is a wonderful place to observe group dynamics. Unlike the f2f forums where words may be withheld or choosen more carefully and, defensive posture is exhibited in voice and body language, here a large degree of anonymity is also invloved. Most of us get to know each other only by what we write and how we react to our carefully composed contributions. Diversity is good and even the moot debates teach us about each other and hone our skills. I learn more than just railroad info here. I learn the compassion of good people. Watch guys like KevintheRRman. He is growing and getting better. If he can do it, anyone can! Just kidding Kevin, my friend......buddy. You still have to stay away from my daughters![B)]

[MP57313]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard
[when someone's statement of fact is challenged, they do seem to become defensive, but I would guess thats more of a personality defect than anything else.

Take it as a challenge to re-verify your statement or clarify your points

[edblysard]

Gabe...
Doubt any of the regulars are so self centerd as to consider themselves experts...but there are rivet counters in any profession, or hobby for that matter.
There are a few folks here, Mr Hemphill, Overmod, Mudchicken, who are experts in their chosen fields, but the rest of us are just dedicated.
I have notice that often, when someone's statement of fact is challenged, they do seem to become defensive, but I would guess thats more of a personality defect than anything else.

You know, for a lawyer, you aint half bad...
Can you come up with a way I can get a Whatabuger to Dan...he's stuck behind enemy lines, and FedEx said they don't ship food....

Ed[:D]

[gabe]

Just to say it again, I hope what I am saying is not being misconstrued as saying we shouldn't disagree with one another. I don't think my position and Mokie's are that far apart. I wish people would disagree more, that is how you learn. I just think people get a little more defensive than they otherwise might because they are use to being experts in this field.

Gabe

[JoeKoh]

My goal is to inform and share what I see.the only stupid question is one that isnt asked.
stay safe
Joe

[Willy2]

I think that your theory is well-said and a good one.

As several others have stated, disagreements help to enrich the forum experience by allowing us to view the opinions and ideas of others. I have been very defensive a couple of times on the forums, (several months ago). By now I have figured out that it is best not to be defensive... so I won't be!

Good theory!

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I enjoy reading almost all the folks on this forum.The serious ones for the information they provide, and the numskulls and wackjobs( we all know who they are[}:)]) because they are so funny.

Thanks...I like your posts too.[:)][8]

[MP57313]

[#ditto] espeefoamer. I read the forums for the info provided. Check the facts before posting something as 'fact'. Cite references if it's not your original material.

I'm an observer of railroads and trains etc., not in the business, so I really don't have strong opinions one way or the other on a lot of stuff (It just is. They changed the paint scheme again. Deal with it.) I do get annoyed when Amtrak doesn't update the ETA on electronic schedule boards, but that's not the responsibility of folks on the forum.

My strongest opinions are associated with off-topic subjects so they usually don't show up here

[espeefoamer]

I enjoy reading almost all the folks on this forum.The serious ones for the information they provide, and the numskulls and wackjobs( we all know who they are[}:)]) because they are so funny.

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Mookie,,,

We dont "throw verbal cow-pies at each other"

thats for sissys...

We "sling bulls***"....it's a time honored tradition in Texas.

Which might explain why UT turns out so may attorneys...

Besides, Dan defected to Arnold-Land, so he deserves it!

By the way, Dan, I had a Whataburger for lunch today, double meat with cheese and extra onions, heavy on the grease!
Ha...

Ed[:D]

Ed speaks the truth.

I didn't defect, I'm a POW.

As for the Whataburger thing.....that's just mean......[:p] you had to have jalapeno's too...

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

The only thing that will usually get my shorts in a wad (how's that for colorful?) is those folks who seem dead set against admitting that maybe, just maybe, the other side of the argument may just have some merit, as cited by mffisher. There are generally at least two sides to any discussion, and those sides are rarely black and white. You don't have to agree with me that <pick your color> is the greatest color in the world, but you should be willing to acknowledge that it exists. We then agree to disagree.

Along with what Mookie said, it's a fine line between attacking my ideas and attacking me. Sometimes that precipitates some "interesting" discourse as well.

Hey, but what about the litigator's code:

1. Admit nothing

2. Deny everything.

3. Demand proof.

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

When I discovered this forum I told my wife how interesting it was. Being a banker's daughter, she immediately understood my exileration of receiving an education like the one I am getting for virtually free. Her only other comment was she was surprised at the defensive nature of some of the member's comments.

Given the fact that my wife and I are lawyers and deal with dissention on a daily basis, her comment surprised me. After looking at posts a bit more closely and with her view in mind, I think I agree with her. Disagreements are greeted with much more of a defensive posture than I am accustomed to seeing in my everyday life.

So my grand theory is:

We all have an unusual hobby--unusual in the sense that we are probably all considered experts on this subject in our ordinary life by those around us and are used to being completely deferred to for matters concerning railroad knowledge. I think this phenomenon contributes to my wife's observations.

Ultimately, I think the discourse on this forum is polite, and I am not complaining. I am, however, suggesting that if we were a little less defensive we could allow our disagreements to further enrich our railroad knowledge rather than immediately going on the defensive.

Admitedly, this is fairly easy for me. I am fond of poker. In poker there is a saying that goes "if you look around the table and don't see the sucker, the sucker is you." I don't see the sucker in this forum--at least in regard to those forum members I have decided are courteous enough to merit reading--and I know it is me. However, for those of you who do see the (polite) sucker, perhaps we would all benefit by remembering we can always learn more by listening to and considering people's arguments rather than defending our preceived rail superiority.

For what it is worth,

Gabe

Are you sure you are a lawyer?? Endorsing an end to conflict, politeness, oh, no...

Your wife isn't Hon. Judith Kaye by any chance, is she?

I'm not trying to be impolite and perhaps I'm one of those rascals you refer to above. I just chalk it up to being a "reformed" lawyer and cranky ol' railroader. Still, I think I have something to offer...

At a recent rail industry meeting, a friend's wife who is also an attorney asked me if I thought railroaders or lawyers were bigger drinkers as a group. I'm still on the fence on that one...

LC

[tree68]

The only thing that will usually get my shorts in a wad (how's that for colorful?) is those folks who seem dead set against admitting that maybe, just maybe, the other side of the argument may just have some merit, as cited by mffisher. There are generally at least two sides to any discussion, and those sides are rarely black and white. You don't have to agree with me that <pick your color> is the greatest color in the world, but you should be willing to acknowledge that it exists. We then agree to disagree.

Along with what Mookie said, it's a fine line between attacking my ideas and attacking me. Sometimes that precipitates some "interesting" discourse as well.

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I tend to be somewhat selective in my postings since I feel that I'm sharing what I know with somebody else and want to make a positive contribution, not just aimless ramblings. That being said, I will admit that some of my postings may not be completely on the mark, and corrections are always appreciated. Also, I appreciate it when my posting can serve as a starting point for a more knowledgable contributor and we all learn something as a result.

[edblysard]

Mookie,,,

We dont "throw verbal cow-pies at each other"

thats for sissys...

We "sling bulls***"....it's a time honored tradition in Texas.

Which might explain why UT turns out so may attorneys...

Besides, Dan defected to Arnold-Land, so he deserves it!

By the way, Dan, I had a Whataburger for lunch today, double meat with cheese and extra onions, heavy on the grease!
Ha...

Ed[:D]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

I attribute it to being essentially anonomyus. I don't know you, never met you, probably will never meet you and more importantly you don't know me, have never met me and will probably never meet me.
There is very little if any relationship so there is very little if any of the normal restraints you have in normal face to face conversation. It is a very liberating environment. So when challenged there is strong territorial urge to stand your ground and defend it. Liberated from face to face restrictions, people are freer to take a poke at each other. On other forums the moderator normally sets the bounds and establishes the limits. I have only seen two or three persons cursing on railroad Yahoo Group lists because they are banned or moderated within one or two posts. Since this is a more loosely moderated forum, I see cursing more frequently.

So the defensive posture is a result of the freedom of the internet forum.

Dave H.

Yes! Well said!

I like debate. I think it’s healthy for the soul. For me it opens up viewpoints that I might not have experienced or thought of or even like to admit makes sense. I might argue a point just to push another individuals to express themselves. This allows me to experience a view/point I might not other wise see/experience if we were face-to-face.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

You don't have to but you may find it quite colourful. My writing influences come from Milton, Dante, Poe and Steven King. (at least for the spooky stuff)

Now see, we had a difference of opinion and never drew blood. And it was all in the way it was said.

However, if someone attacks me, I won't hesitate to flick out a long fingernail and leave the mark of Mookie on them..... [:X]

[Junctionfan]

You don't have to but you may find it quite colourful. My writing influences come from Milton, Dante, Poe and Steven King. (at least for the spooky stuff)