My theory on rail fans and this forum

[gabe]

When I discovered this forum I told my wife how interesting it was. Being a banker's daughter, she immediately understood my exileration of receiving an education like the one I am getting for virtually free. Her only other comment was she was surprised at the defensive nature of some of the member's comments.

Given the fact that my wife and I are lawyers and deal with dissention on a daily basis, her comment surprised me. After looking at posts a bit more closely and with her view in mind, I think I agree with her. Disagreements are greeted with much more of a defensive posture than I am accustomed to seeing in my everyday life.

So my grand theory is:

We all have an unusual hobby--unusual in the sense that we are probably all considered experts on this subject in our ordinary life by those around us and are used to being completely deferred to for matters concerning railroad knowledge. I think this phenomenon contributes to my wife's observations.

Ultimately, I think the discourse on this forum is polite, and I am not complaining. I am, however, suggesting that if we were a little less defensive we could allow our disagreements to further enrich our railroad knowledge rather than immediately going on the defensive.

Admitedly, this is fairly easy for me. I am fond of poker. In poker there is a saying that goes "if you look around the table and don't see the sucker, the sucker is you." I don't see the sucker in this forum--at least in regard to those forum members I have decided are courteous enough to merit reading--and I know it is me. However, for those of you who do see the (polite) sucker, perhaps we would all benefit by remembering we can always learn more by listening to and considering people's arguments rather than defending our preceived rail superiority.

For what it is worth,

Gabe

[Junctionfan]

That's a pretty good theory to me.

[dharmon]

Holy cow! Two lawyers in the same house!!!!!

- Did you get bread today?
- No.
- Didn't I ask you to stop and get bread on the way home from the office?
- Yes.
- So did you?
- No.
- Why not?
- I wasn't at work, I was at court.
- So you didn't get bread like I asked?
- No you said to stop and get bread on the way home from the office, I wasn't at the office nor did I go there before I came home.
- Are you sure?
- Yes.
- Your honor at this time, I'd like to submit People's Exhibit 1, phone records showing my husband placed calls form his office after his court appearance.
- Objection! The defense has not had the opportunity to examine this new evidence and request a recess until next year to have our experts validate it.....

Just kidding you.

[Mookie]

I should bite my finger tips off and not post on this, but it has come up before and it always comes down to All Harmony and No Discourse Makes for Very Dull Reading.

People should be able to write their feelings in whatever way they wish - as long as they aren't swearing or being unreasonably derisive. As long as the forum moderators don't have a problem, then they should be left to their personal expression. Free expression is what I would call it.

I read this forum for the questions and answers and the discussions, but also for the color of each one's personality. I rather enjoy some of the down and dirty that goes back and forth - as long as it stays within the boundaries set by the forum people.

I, for one, don't want sterile, textbook material fed to me. I want to listen in on discussions and see disagreements between people who really do think their viewpoint is right and stand up for it.

Some people are quick to action, some are not. What a nice variety! We can't all be vanilla!

As I said before, if you want textbook - go to school. I like the forum just the way it is with all its warts and blemishes!

Mookie

[gabe]

Mookie,

I am not at all contending that people should not disagree with one another. I think arguing and disagreements are what makes the forum what it is. I am just noting that I think some people take it personally when you disagree with them and feel as though their rail soverignty is being challenged.

I find that this kind of behavior makes me less likely to take a position, disagree, etc. I want to be told why I am wrong--not that I am a yard goat arguing with an SD-90. I think people should disagree--heck, I am disagreeing with you right now. I just think that there is a higher percentage on here than average who take it too personally and taking it personally distracts from the value of the forum.

Gabe

[gabe]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dharmon

Holy cow! Two lawyers in the same house!!!!!

- Did you get bread today?
- No.
- Didn't I ask you to stop and get bread on the way home from the office?
- Yes.
- So did you?
- No.
- Why not?
- I wasn't at work, I was at court.
- So you didn't get bread like I asked?
- No you said to stop and get bread on the way home from the office, I wasn't at the office nor did I go there before I came home.
- Are you sure?
- Yes.
- Your honor at this time, I'd like to submit People's Exhibit 1, phone records showing my husband placed calls form his office after his court appearance.
- Objection! The defense has not had the opportunity to examine this new evidence and request a recess until next year to have our experts validate it.....

Just kidding you.

As long as my mother-in-law isn't the "your honor" . . .

Very true and very funny.

Gabe

[railman]

Peace and love make good song lyrcs,but not a very neat forum!!!

[Anonymous]

I have to mostly agree with Mookie. Although discussing a difference of opinions is not the same as arguing. Also, there are a few people who seem to be a little sensitive when their statements are questioned.

I am reminded of what a fellow I worked for, and greatly respected, once said; "If you ask some one why they do something a particular way and they say because that is the way it has always been done, there is probably a better way to do it."

[Anonymous]

Spirited discussion is one thing. Sometimes it breaks down into inarticulate ranting. It turns me off when any group has to contend with "That's my opinion, you're wrong, I'm right, end of discussion." I remember a post about why Americans drive large cars. There were several well reasoned replies and several in the "It is our God-given right," line. The first advanced the discussion, the latter a waste of server space. But, that's just my opinion.

[dehusman]

I attribute it to being essentially anonomyus. I don't know you, never met you, probably will never meet you and more importantly you don't know me, have never met me and will probably never meet me.
There is very little if any relationship so there is very little if any of the normal restraints you have in normal face to face conversation. It is a very liberating environment. So when challenged there is strong territorial urge to stand your ground and defend it. Liberated from face to face restrictions, people are freer to take a poke at each other. On other forums the moderator normally sets the bounds and establishes the limits. I have only seen two or three persons cursing on railroad Yahoo Group lists because they are banned or moderated within one or two posts. Since this is a more loosely moderated forum, I see cursing more frequently.

So the defensive posture is a result of the freedom of the internet forum.

Dave H.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

Mookie,

I am not at all contending that people should not disagree with one another. I think arguing and disagreements are what makes the forum what it is. I am just noting that I think some people take it personally when you disagree with them and feel as though their rail soverignty is being challenged.

I find that this kind of behavior makes me less likely to take a position, disagree, etc. I want to be told why I am wrong--not that I am a yard goat arguing with an SD-90. I think people should disagree--heck, I am disagreeing with you right now. I just think that there is a higher percentage on here than average who take it too personally and taking it personally distracts from the value of the forum.

Gabe

My point exactly - let them take it personally - they can't throw rocks. The ones that are really offensive in that area - are shut out of the forum. The ones that do throw a lot of verbal rocks, ditto. So let them get their fur in an uproar - it relieves the drier parts of the forum that we who know zip about, find very, very dull.

Some people think that a good discussion on the merits of a class 1 railroad in Zamfia is just the best thing since white bread was invented. I am from Nebraska. Don't know, don't care and frankly won't learn much about it, since I have nothing in my experience or learning about a class 1 in Zamfia!

Now discuss a conductor and an engineer doing something a little out of the ordinary and you do have my attention. I know these people and can just imagine some of the things they do to each other. Or discuss what happens when an engine goes through a switch the wrong way. Or what the yellow thingie is and it's purpose. Those are my hot buttons. And fortunately, we have a mixture for just about anyone to partake. I will ignore the Zamfia one, you probably don't really care about a yellow thingie.

But if Ed and Dan want to throw some verbal cow pies at each other - you bet I am going to be there! That's reality forum!

[Modelcar]

....I believe cursing has no place on a forum such as this....I don't have any problem with spirited back and forth as long as we tend to be civil about it. And for saying there is no relationships on here, I believe there are some...Some folks have met face to face and I think that is great.....and the longer we operate, the chance of meeting someone face to face at some function is greater. I suppose the only thing I'm saying is keep it civil and we'll all get along and have fun doing it.

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Modelcar

....I believe cursing has no place on a forum such as this....I don't have any problem with spirited back and forth as long as we tend to be civil about it. And for saying there is no relationships on here, I believe there are some...Some folks have met face to face and I think that is great.....and the longer we operate, the chance of meeting someone face to face at some function is greater. I suppose the only thing I'm saying is keep it civil and we'll all get along and have fun doing it.

I comb my hair and put on my makeup every weekend to go watch trains, just in case someone comes along and says "Mookie" and scares the daylights out of me. I want to look my best in a coma! [8)]

[Junctionfan]

Wait until I present my Halloween poetry to the forum on the thread closer to the 30th.

You'll find my stuff cool and very interesting indeed-certainly not boring.[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

[adrianspeeder]

Well, I look at it like most people like to get in a good zinger. Thats always what happened everyday in highschool. I got pretty good at it. I could give one now that would make some say 'ouch', but i won't.

I always just keep a smile on, sometimes its a smirk, but a smile nonetheless.

Adrianspeeder

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

Wait until I present my Halloween poetry to the forum on the thread closer to the 30th.

You'll find my stuff cool and very interesting indeed-certainly not boring.[}:)][}:)][}:)][}:)]

Now see, you and I will have a disagreement - you are answering for me - that I will find your stuff cool and very interesting - and if I don't?

You have already raised my eyebrow - what there is of it - that you are assuming I will like it. It would be better if you would "hope" that we will enjoy it. That takes the sting out the statement. The first statement is a force and the 2nd is the gentle hand of encouragement!

Moo

[Junctionfan]

You don't have to but you may find it quite colourful. My writing influences come from Milton, Dante, Poe and Steven King. (at least for the spooky stuff)

[Mookie]

QUOTE: Originally posted by Junctionfan

You don't have to but you may find it quite colourful. My writing influences come from Milton, Dante, Poe and Steven King. (at least for the spooky stuff)

Now see, we had a difference of opinion and never drew blood. And it was all in the way it was said.

However, if someone attacks me, I won't hesitate to flick out a long fingernail and leave the mark of Mookie on them..... [:X]

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by dehusman

I attribute it to being essentially anonomyus. I don't know you, never met you, probably will never meet you and more importantly you don't know me, have never met me and will probably never meet me.
There is very little if any relationship so there is very little if any of the normal restraints you have in normal face to face conversation. It is a very liberating environment. So when challenged there is strong territorial urge to stand your ground and defend it. Liberated from face to face restrictions, people are freer to take a poke at each other. On other forums the moderator normally sets the bounds and establishes the limits. I have only seen two or three persons cursing on railroad Yahoo Group lists because they are banned or moderated within one or two posts. Since this is a more loosely moderated forum, I see cursing more frequently.

So the defensive posture is a result of the freedom of the internet forum.

Dave H.

Yes! Well said!

I like debate. I think it’s healthy for the soul. For me it opens up viewpoints that I might not have experienced or thought of or even like to admit makes sense. I might argue a point just to push another individuals to express themselves. This allows me to experience a view/point I might not other wise see/experience if we were face-to-face.

[edblysard]

Mookie,,,

We dont "throw verbal cow-pies at each other"

thats for sissys...

We "sling bulls***"....it's a time honored tradition in Texas.

Which might explain why UT turns out so may attorneys...

Besides, Dan defected to Arnold-Land, so he deserves it!

By the way, Dan, I had a Whataburger for lunch today, double meat with cheese and extra onions, heavy on the grease!
Ha...

Ed[:D]

[CSSHEGEWISCH]

I tend to be somewhat selective in my postings since I feel that I'm sharing what I know with somebody else and want to make a positive contribution, not just aimless ramblings. That being said, I will admit that some of my postings may not be completely on the mark, and corrections are always appreciated. Also, I appreciate it when my posting can serve as a starting point for a more knowledgable contributor and we all learn something as a result.

[tree68]

The only thing that will usually get my shorts in a wad (how's that for colorful?) is those folks who seem dead set against admitting that maybe, just maybe, the other side of the argument may just have some merit, as cited by mffisher. There are generally at least two sides to any discussion, and those sides are rarely black and white. You don't have to agree with me that <pick your color> is the greatest color in the world, but you should be willing to acknowledge that it exists. We then agree to disagree.

Along with what Mookie said, it's a fine line between attacking my ideas and attacking me. Sometimes that precipitates some "interesting" discourse as well.

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by gabe

When I discovered this forum I told my wife how interesting it was. Being a banker's daughter, she immediately understood my exileration of receiving an education like the one I am getting for virtually free. Her only other comment was she was surprised at the defensive nature of some of the member's comments.

Given the fact that my wife and I are lawyers and deal with dissention on a daily basis, her comment surprised me. After looking at posts a bit more closely and with her view in mind, I think I agree with her. Disagreements are greeted with much more of a defensive posture than I am accustomed to seeing in my everyday life.

So my grand theory is:

We all have an unusual hobby--unusual in the sense that we are probably all considered experts on this subject in our ordinary life by those around us and are used to being completely deferred to for matters concerning railroad knowledge. I think this phenomenon contributes to my wife's observations.

Ultimately, I think the discourse on this forum is polite, and I am not complaining. I am, however, suggesting that if we were a little less defensive we could allow our disagreements to further enrich our railroad knowledge rather than immediately going on the defensive.

Admitedly, this is fairly easy for me. I am fond of poker. In poker there is a saying that goes "if you look around the table and don't see the sucker, the sucker is you." I don't see the sucker in this forum--at least in regard to those forum members I have decided are courteous enough to merit reading--and I know it is me. However, for those of you who do see the (polite) sucker, perhaps we would all benefit by remembering we can always learn more by listening to and considering people's arguments rather than defending our preceived rail superiority.

For what it is worth,

Gabe

Are you sure you are a lawyer?? Endorsing an end to conflict, politeness, oh, no...

Your wife isn't Hon. Judith Kaye by any chance, is she?

I'm not trying to be impolite and perhaps I'm one of those rascals you refer to above. I just chalk it up to being a "reformed" lawyer and cranky ol' railroader. Still, I think I have something to offer...

At a recent rail industry meeting, a friend's wife who is also an attorney asked me if I thought railroaders or lawyers were bigger drinkers as a group. I'm still on the fence on that one...

LC

[Anonymous]

QUOTE: Originally posted by tree68

The only thing that will usually get my shorts in a wad (how's that for colorful?) is those folks who seem dead set against admitting that maybe, just maybe, the other side of the argument may just have some merit, as cited by mffisher. There are generally at least two sides to any discussion, and those sides are rarely black and white. You don't have to agree with me that <pick your color> is the greatest color in the world, but you should be willing to acknowledge that it exists. We then agree to disagree.

Along with what Mookie said, it's a fine line between attacking my ideas and attacking me. Sometimes that precipitates some "interesting" discourse as well.

Hey, but what about the litigator's code:

1. Admit nothing

2. Deny everything.

3. Demand proof.

LC

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by edblysard

Mookie,,,

We dont "throw verbal cow-pies at each other"

thats for sissys...

We "sling bulls***"....it's a time honored tradition in Texas.

Which might explain why UT turns out so may attorneys...

Besides, Dan defected to Arnold-Land, so he deserves it!

By the way, Dan, I had a Whataburger for lunch today, double meat with cheese and extra onions, heavy on the grease!
Ha...

Ed[:D]

Ed speaks the truth.

I didn't defect, I'm a POW.

As for the Whataburger thing.....that's just mean......[:p] you had to have jalapeno's too...

[espeefoamer]

I enjoy reading almost all the folks on this forum.The serious ones for the information they provide, and the numskulls and wackjobs( we all know who they are[}:)]) because they are so funny.

[MP57313]

[#ditto] espeefoamer. I read the forums for the info provided. Check the facts before posting something as 'fact'. Cite references if it's not your original material.

I'm an observer of railroads and trains etc., not in the business, so I really don't have strong opinions one way or the other on a lot of stuff (It just is. They changed the paint scheme again. Deal with it.) I do get annoyed when Amtrak doesn't update the ETA on electronic schedule boards, but that's not the responsibility of folks on the forum.

My strongest opinions are associated with off-topic subjects so they usually don't show up here

[dharmon]

QUOTE: Originally posted by espeefoamer

I enjoy reading almost all the folks on this forum.The serious ones for the information they provide, and the numskulls and wackjobs( we all know who they are[}:)]) because they are so funny.

Thanks...I like your posts too.[:)][8]

[Willy2]

I think that your theory is well-said and a good one.

As several others have stated, disagreements help to enrich the forum experience by allowing us to view the opinions and ideas of others. I have been very defensive a couple of times on the forums, (several months ago). By now I have figured out that it is best not to be defensive... so I won't be!

Good theory!

[JoeKoh]

My goal is to inform and share what I see.the only stupid question is one that isnt asked.
stay safe
Joe