Bus in Canada hit by VIA Train. Report said driver went through crossing gate. When will people learn.
http://news.yahoo.com/train-bus-crash-canada-multiple-fatalities-135250098.html
Steve
Yup... I stirred up the pot over on SubChat telling that now BUSES will have to be made to railway safety standards.
ROAR
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steve24944 Bus in Canada hit by VIA Train. Report said driver went through crossing gate. When will people learn. http://news.yahoo.com/train-bus-crash-canada-multiple-fatalities-135250098.html Steve
It would seem that the Headline is in error(?)
Here is a report from The Ottawa Citizen with links to more information:
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Driver+five+passengers+confirmed+dead+Transpo+train+collide/8927263/story.html
The report states that the train was in the crossing when the bus struck it. One witness says the bus driver did not apply his brakes. Another witness say the bus driver "slammed on" his brakes but too late. The bus driver and 5 others on the bus were killed in the accident.
Personally, I am reluctant to speculate until the cause of the accident is investigated.
Does anyone find it ironic that the VIA trains on this route are being replaced by buses. Yes, you have to do an investigation, but what are you going to find that puts blame on the train? And does it make sense to put people on more buses where the fatalities occurred? Common sense has left the building.
Petitnj: Presumably the derailed train engine and cars have to be re-railed and removed first. Then the track can be inspected for damage and repaired as needed. And I'm assuming all of that has to wait for the investigation to be completed.
Maybe the railroad could build a shoofly around the accident scene to avoid having to use bus replacements
samfp1943Witnesses said the bus plowed through a lowered crossing barrier and directly into the side of the passing, four-car train.
Something is definitely haywire here. As one commenter on one of the story's I read noted, the photos show both crossing gates have returned to their upright and locked positions in an undamaged state.
As for cleanup, it should be fairly easy. The hulk of the bus is at the edge of the ROW, still in the driving lanes, and there is a clear shot down the ROW for the Tonka Toys to do their thing.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
I've just looked at another set of photos, and I can see where the confusion lies. There are two parallel roads next to each other. similar to a divided highway situation, but both marked for two way travel.
The gate that would have been in front of the bus is indeed broken off. If the bus had gotten stopped about six feet sooner, the broken gate might have been the only damage. It was that close a call.
The accident location appears to have been here: N 45.30292 W 75.73398.
It looks like there is a dedicated busway from the Fallowfield Station complex into Ottawa, coming onto city streets near the intersection of Woodroffe Road and Hunt Club Road.
Assuming the train was running with the locomotive in the lead, the train was headed for Toronto. In the BBC story (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-24148750) you can see the VIA station in the background.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
This is the latest news from The Globe and Mail:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tsb-investigators-find-no-problems-with-crossing-train-involved-in-bus-crash/article14443159/
John WR Here is a report from The Ottawa Citizen with links to more information: http://www.ottawacitizen.com/health/Driver+five+passengers+confirmed+dead+Transpo+train+collide/8927263/story.html The report states that the train was in the crossing when the bus struck it. One witness says the bus driver did not apply his brakes. Another witness say the bus driver "slammed on" his brakes but too late. The bus driver and 5 others on the bus were killed in the accident. Personally, I am reluctant to speculate until the cause of the accident is investigated.
Are investigators going to review the 'black box' on the bus?
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
John WR This is the latest news from The Globe and Mail: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/tsb-investigators-find-no-problems-with-crossing-train-involved-in-bus-crash/article14443159/
"The train didn’t sound its whistle – due to a municipal ban, which the TSB says is common – but the train’s bell was ringing and the crossing alerts were functioning."
This should be a focus, I would bet that if the train were sounding its whistle that the bus driver would have stopped in time. More money needs to be spent at the crossings if cities want trains not to sound their whistles. As it is if a municipality in Canada wants a "quiet zone" I don't think they are required to upgrade the crossing at all. Here is what CP says about them.
BaltACDAre investigators going to review the 'black box' on the bus?
I'm sure you were joking, but here is your answer:
"Investigators say their key focus will be examining the bus’s black box, which could include its speed and whether brakes were applied – some passengers said they were, while others said they weren’t sure."
Maybe I'm just an old guy, but the last time I saw a black box on a bus, it turned out to be the battery.
Lion ----------- just what do you think can be downloaded from your car's computer ? already seat belt connected or not and other items. A bus may have more robust computers ? Ask your mechanic
cp8905 This should be a focus, I would bet that if the train were sounding its whistle that the bus driver would have stopped in time. More money needs to be spent at the crossings if cities want trains not to sound their whistles. As it is if a municipality in Canada wants a "quiet zone" I don't think they are required to upgrade the crossing at all. Here is what CP says about them.
So what extra items should be installed at a grade crossing in a quiet zone? The crossing already had functioning gates, lights and bells. I'd say if a driver doesn't see all those things and act accordingly, a locomotive blowing its horn isn't going to make much difference. In this case, the bus went right through a lowered gate.
Following this logic, then every traffic light at a regular street intersection should sound horns to make sure some auto driver doesn't just run a red light (that does happen all too frequently),
Like many such accidents, I would opine that the incident occured because the driver wasn't paying attention to what he needed to be paying attention to - the road ahead and all the usual hazards therein.
I'm sure the why of his inattention may come out in time.
There are the usual suspects, of course (cell phone, texting, fiddling with the radio). But until something official is released, they are no more than suspects and, as noted, it does not good for us to speculate.
An overheight bus hit a low RR bridge in the Syracuse area a couple of years ago because the driver was lost and was focused on his GPS and not the road ahead.
CJtrainguy cp8905 This should be a focus, I would bet that if the train were sounding its whistle that the bus driver would have stopped in time. More money needs to be spent at the crossings if cities want trains not to sound their whistles. As it is if a municipality in Canada wants a "quiet zone" I don't think they are required to upgrade the crossing at all. Here is what CP says about them. So what extra items should be installed at a grade crossing in a quiet zone? The crossing already had functioning gates, lights and bells. I'd say if a driver doesn't see all those things and act accordingly, a locomotive blowing its horn isn't going to make much difference. In this case, the bus went right through a lowered gate. Following this logic, then every traffic light at a regular street intersection should sound horns to make sure some auto driver doesn't just run a red light (that does happen all too frequently),
There is a debate up here right now. My understanding is that in the US if a community wants a quiet zone you must pay for upgraded crossings, with things like whistles at the crossing (not as loud as a locomotive whistle but loud enough to get someones attention), quad gates, barriers that divide the lanes so people can't drive around, even gates that cannot be run through in some cases. That isn't true in Canada, I think the railroads lack the leverage here and don't want to be stuck paying for it so just agree to a quiet zone without modifications. Canada doesn't have as many grade crossings as the US obviously, but it still will be expensive (here is a story I found in the US, it says $175,000 per crossing). The theory is that this bus driver fell asleep, an auxiliary whistle might have startled him awake, and an unbreachable barrier would have kept him from running through. Not a guarantee, but certainly better than what was there.
CJtrainguyThe crossing already had functioning gates, lights and bells. I'd say if a driver doesn't see all those things and act accordingly, a locomotive blowing its horn isn't going to make much difference.
If the horn does not add safety, why use it anywhere?
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/212060.aspx?sort=ASC&pi332=1
The [U.P.] railroad’s website says:
"Union Pacific believes quiet zones compromise the safety of railroad employees, customers, and the general public."
To the best of my knowledge, in Germany trains do not blow horns at crossings that are protected with sturdy, 4-quadrant gates, only unprotected cross-bucks crossings, usually found on branch lines. And they have far more rail traffic than we do, yet have a lower incidence of crossing accidents. Of course they have a lot more separated crossings, too.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Bucyrus If the horn does not add safety, why use it anywhere?
I've watched plenty of grade crossings and how people behave at them (driving around the gates, trying to beat the train and so on), to be well aware that the blaring of a horn makes a difference to plenty of drivers, pedestrians and others scurrying across the tracks after the crossing safety devices have activated. Statistics bear that out as well as there are more "accidents" in quiet zones.
I believe that to be an issue of culture. In the US, drivers pretty much expect that they can ignore crossing gates with impunity, unless there is a horn blowing down their necks.
In much of Europe there is never a horn blown at a protected crossing, only at crossings with no lights or gates. People don't expect to hear a horn. Just the quick swish of a rapidly passing train (more likely to move at 80-100mph than the 25-50mph expected of US trains).
All that said, I stand by my earlier comment, which was that if a driver's attention to the road ahead is so poor that he or she doesn't see closed crossing gates and lights or hear the bells of the crossing, then a horn blowing isn't going to make much difference. Said vehicle will plow through the crossing gates leaving no skid marks.
The horn will make a difference in the case of the person who has noticed all the crossing security and who is planning to go around. That person will hear the horn and either stop if not in the crossing area, or if in the crossing area, jump the ----- out of there (unless said person panics and freezes).
In a civilized society where people act with any modicum of responsibility, the added horn blowing should not be necessary.
From the railroad's perspective, of course they are going to want to sound the horn, as when they don't, that gets noted in the inevitable lawsuit following a crossing incident and it will haunt them.
Given the state of many of our automobile drivers, the only safe crossing seems to be a grade separated crossing. There are many places where one grade separated crossing could replace 5 or so level crossings. The cars would have to drive a little further to get across the tracks, but everyone would be safer and there'd be no need to blow those loud horns.
Schlimm: Correct, and not just in Germany.
The issue there isn't so much with people ignoring the barriers or trying to drive around them (a little harder with 4 quadrant gates), but with folks getting caught in the crossing area and panicking. That's the typical scenario when someone over there gets hit by a train. However, those gates are usually built to break easily, so that a trapped motorist can drive right through, only causing some paint damage to the vehicle.
A question or two:
1. Are horns louder now than 30-60 years ago? Why do they need to be heard at a high dB level over one mile distant?
2. Why do we need to have horns blown two longs, a short and a very long, starting far from the crossing? tradition?
Ifound answers:
The FRA guidelines are detailed. The agency requires train engineers to sound horns 20 seconds before reaching public crossings, no matter the time of day. Locomotive engineers must sound train horns for a minimum of 15 seconds and a maximum of 20 seconds.
The regulations call for two long, one short and one long horn burst, when feasible, continuing until the lead car passes into the crossing.
The maximum volume for a train horn has been established at 110 decibels, and the minimum volume is 96 decibels — the decibel range between a power mower on the low end and chain saw or rock concert at the high end, a National Institutes of Health chart shows.
I've got to agree with CJ on the US attitude about railroad crossings. It's just a lack of respect for the potential for damage trains carry plus a certain amount of devil-may-care and a smidge of "it can't happen to me."
I had a close call this past weekend when I came around a curve at 25 MPH or so and saw people in the middle of the tracks at a trail crossing (including kids), followed by a car passing halfway over the same crossing and stopping, apparently due to someone stopping in front of them (maybe they wanted to watch the train go by and forgot someone was behind them?). Much scurrying by those on the tracks, together with plenty of pulls of the horn rope and lots of brakes meant everyone was clear by the time I reached the crossing, but there were a few pulses elevated, I'm sure.
A story I heard (which may be apocryphal --- I'm not sure):
A community voted to declare themselves a quiet zone & said community's representatives asked the RR to stop blowing horns. The RR said NO. Then the community sued & got the judge to issue an order which required the RR to stop blowing horns. The grade crossing accident rate began to climb. The community collectively decided this had not been a good idea and asked the RR to go back to blowing horns. The RR said something like "Nope. We've got a court order which forbids us to blow the horn. If you want it blown, YOU go back to the judge and tell him (or her) what idiots you have been."
I don't know whether it's exactly true, but it should be.
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