I agree, Larry. IPP and the Adirondacks are very different trails. The IPP passes fairly near 500K people, as DuPage County alone has 900K. Most users are locals, although it does attract folks from farther away. It also connects to other trails, such as the Fox River trail. IPP is maintained in part by the county, but depends heavily on volunteers. The Adirondacks are a major tourist attraction, so one would assume that hiking and trail bike riding might be popular activities. Perhaps a better rail to trail comparison would be the Elroy-Sparta trail in rural Wisconsin, which along with the IPP was one of the first in the US.
http://www.elroy-sparta-trail.com/
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
If you take out Norwalk, Wilton, and Kendall, and highways 31 and 171, I, P, and W, not to mention the parking areas they make accessible, you start to approximate the area in question in the Adirondacks.
Oh, yeah - Tomah, Hustler, Oakdale, New Lisbon, Mauston, Cashton, Elvina, and Hillsboro probably have to go, as well. And you have to move I-94 at least 50 miles away.
For those who would like a better look at the area through which the corridor runs, you can follow the line through these four images. Mileposts are given for certain points, for distance reference. Note that many of the "roads" indicated are little more than logging trails or slightly improved gravel/dirt roads.
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0006a.jpg
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0007a.jpg
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0008a.jpg
http://www.tree68.net/Railroad/ADIXDeLorme0009a.jpg
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
So you've made the statement that there is virtually no population near the trail and thereby question how many will actually use the trail. If there is no population, who will ride any restored rail service?
tgoodwin So you've made the statement that there is virtually no population near the trail and thereby question how many will actually use the trail. If there is no population, who will ride any restored rail service?
Who would ride? Those travelling between the endpoints and those travelling to points along the line that are otherwise difficult to access for hiking and camping.
Tupper Lake, Saranac Lake, and Lake Placid are proven draws (especially Lake Placid).
I would strongly suspect that those who would like to see those remote sections of the Adirondack Park but cannot or would not hike or bike the remote portions of the ROW far outnumber the hardy souls who would actually hike or bike it. Not many people are up to a 60 mile hike with zero amenities.
Heck, even a higher-up in the recreational biking industry has said he wouldn't send anyone out on the proposed trail.
The takeaway of any comparison of the proposed trail to existing trails such as Pine Creek or the Illinois Prairie Path is that they are used because there is ready access over their entire length. Users can enter them at any number of points. One can therefore conclude that since similar access likely will not exist for the bulk of the proposed trail (the tri-lakes region being the exception), that few people will use it.
Might better keep the rails in place and let thousands of people enjoy the Park, rather than just a few hikers and bikers.
There is an excellent article on this situation in the latest issue of Railway Age written by David Link who is one of the founders of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. I urge everyone with an interest in this subject to read it. You should be able to get to it at their website.
George
The # of passenger riders seems unclear because of different measures (<70K). What is the freight usage in carloads in and out?
schlimm The # of passenger riders seems unclear because of different measures (<70K). What is the freight usage in carloads in and out?
Currently zero. There is a quarry on the section currently in operation, but the rail loading area hasn't been used in some time. Projections for freight use are currently theoretical for the rest of the line.
Passenger count is confusing. What the number actually represents is number of boardings. Those trains that do an out-and-back with no layover are boarded only once, so each person riding the train counts as one passenger.
Conversely, trips like the dinner trains and the Lake Placid/Saranac Lake trips, where passengers leave the consist, then reboard, count each person twice.
While it seems like a ploy to raise passenger counts, it's a standard in the industry - and for that matter, it's how all railroads track passengers. A commuter rides twice a day, and they're counted as two riders, once for each boarding. In theory, a person like Carl, who sometimes makes several stops when he's riding Metra, etc, would be counted once for each boarding. If he made several intermediate stops, he could result in an recording of four or five boardings, or passengers, but he's only one person.
overall There is an excellent article on this situation in the latest issue of Railway Age written by David Link who is one of the founders of the Adirondack Scenic Railroad. I urge everyone with an interest in this subject to read it. You should be able to get to it at their website. George
George:
Tried to find this article in Railway Age for the last couple of days. First I was interested in reading it.. Then, when I could not find it by David Link, It had become a Challenge. Admittedly, there were a couple of times while looking for it my thoughts turned ugly!
But then i did find it, I Think! (?).
Linked @ http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/blogs/doug-bowen/preservationists-rearview-work-or-future-prep.html
"Preservation: Amber past, or future-prep?"
Written by Douglas John Bowen
Found the part about the Rails or Trails argument about two-thirds into the article. (Starts about where the photo is)
FTA:"..In those larger Adirondack Mountains (photo at left), encompassed by a massive namesake state park, a similar (but fittingly larger and more acute) dispute is being played out, pitting local trail advocates against the Adirondack Scenic Railroad, operated by the Adirondack Railway Preservation Society (ARPS) over portions of 141 miles of right-of-way owned by the state.
New York's DOT and Department of Environmental Conservation (DEC) are reviewing this route and, last week, invited public comment as part of a review process, which of course has de-evolved into a rail versus trail spat. The plan was for the former New York Central branch line to be held for future freight, and maybe even passenger, use..."
FURTHER:"....Snowmobilers and hikers, including the Adirondack Recreational Trail Advocates, and other groups (Sierra Club) see the future differently, with the Trail Advocates calling for existing rail infrastructure to be removed and a trail established between Old Forge and Lake Placid, N.Y. Six towns and villages so far concur.
ARPS has a partner, however, and one with railroad expertise: Saratoga & North Creek Railway, a subsidiary of Iowa Pacific Holdings, whose CEO Ed Ellis knows a thing or two about "real" railroading, protests by trails-only partisans about "economic reality" notwithstanding. A year ago, Chicago-based Iowa Pacific was cleared by the Surface Transportation Board to revive 30 miles of the railroad between North Creek and Newcomb, serving the eastern "High Peaks" within Adirondack State Park—ironically, a popular destination for hikers..."
FINALLY:"...But rail professionalism (or enhanced access) isn't the real issue for the trail folk involved in the Adirondack Mountains. The real issue is one of real utility, be it passenger or freight, or both. Iowa Pacific CEO Ellis last year noted the market existed for rock and tailings left by previous industry to be hauled out. To me, that's utilizing railroads and their "green" advantage. The trail folk don't see that; they see railroads as a scourge the way Henry David Thoreau might have seen same 160 years ago.."
There is more about some of the other Preservationnist Rail Operations in the Upstate NY area. The author makes some interesting points. Worth the Read.
Yes, there are some long remote stretches on this corridor, but actually not much longer than the remote stretches on the Pine Creek Trail.
There are currently no places along the corridor for canoeing or hiking that aren't already accessible by road. The remote stretches of private land that adjoin the corridor will remain private for the foreseeable future and therefore not available for public use.
Lake Placid does have a "draw", but most of its attractions require a vehicle for access once one is there. Furthermore, it is 5 hours by car from NYC, but (by the ASR's own admission) 10 hours by rail. From the Albany metro area, it is 2.5 hours by car to Lake Placid but (again by the ASR's own admission) 7.5 hours by rail. There are admittedly those who would choose the rail option despite the longer times, but would there be a daily trainload that would choose that option? If it is only a very occasional excursion train that could be filled up for such a trip, does that justify $40 plus millions of taxpayer dollars (as per the NYS DOT estimate) to restore the line?
If the ARPS has been able to restore this line at no expense to the State as they stated in a 1992 letter, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now as trains would be running. The reality is that none of the capital improvements have been privately funded, and there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor. The historian, Henry Harter, who wrote the history of this line, "Fairy Tale Railroad", stated that the decline in traffic began in the 1920s. He expressed only remorse, not anger or blame, that by the 1950s the New York Central had begun abandonment proceedings.
At some point it must be concluded that this is not currently rail territory and that it will be several generations, if ever, before that is again the case.
Sounds like you're taking the side of the trail advocates.
Norm
Norm48327 Sounds like you're taking the side of the trail advocates.
The thought had occurred to me as well. "Several generations" to rebuild? I guess that is their response to the "if you want a trail why don't you just build one" argument: we must also tear out the tracks for other reasons. My grandma used to refer to this sort of argument as "catastrophizing": "now, now, now, we must do it now" (and out of the corner of their mouths "before anyone wakes up and figures out what we will be losing").
I think you'll find he is one of the trail advocates.
tgoodwin does that justify $40 plus millions of taxpayer dollars (as per the NYS DOT estimate) to restore the line? If the ARPS has been able to restore this line at no expense to the State as they stated in a 1992 letter, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now as trains would be running. The reality is that none of the capital improvements have been privately funded, and there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor. The historian, Henry Harter, who wrote the history of this line, "Fairy Tale Railroad", stated that the decline in traffic began in the 1920s.
does that justify $40 plus millions of taxpayer dollars (as per the NYS DOT estimate) to restore the line?
If the ARPS has been able to restore this line at no expense to the State as they stated in a 1992 letter, then we wouldn't be having this conversation now as trains would be running. The reality is that none of the capital improvements have been privately funded, and there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor. The historian, Henry Harter, who wrote the history of this line, "Fairy Tale Railroad", stated that the decline in traffic began in the 1920s.
That piece of information changes the argument rather dramatically.
tgoodwinand there is an ongoing subsidy to maintain the corridor.
Of course, the "trail" will be funded entirely by private sources. Right?
More and more people are realizing that the decision here is not whether to have a trail or the railroad, but whether to have the railroad or allow the ROW to become inaccessible wilderness.
"Of course, the "trail" will be funded entirely by private sources. Right?"
A little comic relief? Michigan's trails seem to be funded by the state, including building bridges across busy highways. As always, the taxpayer gets stuck with the tab.
Concerning the fact that most of Lake Placid;s attractions require one to access by personal auto or taxi, would not public transportation be improved by local initiative if many more people were to visit via train (or bus or plane for that matter)?
Appeares to be progressing beyond a war of words -
http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/freight/short-lines/apparent-sabotage-at-adirondack-scenic-railroad.html?channel=94
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
BaltACD Appeares to be progressing beyond a war of words - http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/freight/short-lines/apparent-sabotage-at-adirondack-scenic-railroad.html?channel=94
And based on a sentence in the article they brought in some help who knows how to disable a locomotive. The average person wouldn't have any idea what wires to cut let alone make them look like they hadn't been tampered with.
Definitely sounds like sabotage.
Almost forgot. It is a federal offense to tamper with aircraft. Does that hold true for railroad equipment?
Norm48327It is a federal offense to tamper with aircraft. Does that hold true for railroad equipment?
I believe it is. A reward has been offered. Might be interesting to see what turns up.
This is on top of several fires set along the ROW there last year...
Norm48327 BaltACD Appeares to be progressing beyond a war of words - http://www.railwayage.com/index.php/freight/short-lines/apparent-sabotage-at-adirondack-scenic-railroad.html?channel=94 And based on a sentence in the article they brought in some help who knows how to disable a locomotive. The average person wouldn't have any idea what wires to cut let alone make them look like they hadn't been tampered with. Definitely sounds like sabotage. Almost forgot. It is a federal offense to tamper with aircraft. Does that hold true for railroad equipment?
Norm 48327 and Balt ACD:
Sabotage on railroads seems to fall under the perview of the F.B.I. Witness their investigations of AMTRAK incidents where sabotage was suspected, and then recently the run-away train on the CTA ( Chicago Transit Authority). I also think that the FBI was involved in the UPRR run-away in Chicago, some time back (?).
There is no mention of the amount of damages, by value to the ASR locomotive, but judging from the reported circumstances. The Damage and concealment was an act deliberately designed to create a potentially major incident fot the ASR.
Iam sure anyone currently employed in the Railroad Industry can elaborate further on things that would bring in FBI Investigators. Possibly, the incident at Lake Placid area to the ASR locomotive, does not rise to levels that would bring in FBI participation, but you could probably count on it being on their radar, and that of Local Law Enforcement, as well.
I would guess that a sophisticated act as the article described, would possibly indicate some of the "TRAIL Advocates, or their sympathizers" would be an excellent place to start asking questions.
It might also be a good reason for ASR Employees being armed to protect life and limb around the railroad, as well. (See some comments, at the end of the article).
It is definite that someone is escalating their argument. Anyone recall the FEC RR vs. Unions(?) from 1963 to 1977... Interested ? link to an article about the FEC during the owner ship of Edward Ball starting in 1961 @ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Ball_%28businessman%29
Some of the trail advocates apparently are taking a different tactic in their fight according to today's news page. Definitely wasn't a random act of vandalism or just some teenagers so you're left looking at who has the motive.
Sadly, I believe that it's also not the first time that people that have done some research to learn how to maximize their attack have damaged their equipment. I believe that they've had locomotives that have had their stack capped attacked in the past with it removed and dozens of gallons of water poured in during the winter months.
Edit: Already being discussed I see. I checked before posting but apparently wasn't on the last page.
Sam, the damage is $25,000-50,000, plus lost revenue, probably about that figure as well. Will insurance pay this, or the person responsible, or...?
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/539427/Foul-play-suspected-in-train-damage.html
I hope they're able to repair her. Money like that could be the end of her career which I'm sure has the anti rail advocate that wants a return to nature in the guise of benefiting the community salivating if he reads this.
So after sabatging the locomotive, what will the trail criminals do next? Maybe sabatage the track and cause a train de-railment? Perhaps cause injuries or deaths as well?Do these criminals have any limits?
Yhe Adirondack Scenic should put out a warning: If any sabotage or eco-terrorism of our equipment results in death or injury, after the criminal justice system is through with you we will seek civil damages. In a word, we will own you, from your hiking boots to your "Mountain House" trail mix. Your Grandma dies and leaves you her jewelry, we'll own that. Your millionaire uncle leaves you his fortune, we'll own that too. Your house, your Volvo, your Enya CD's, all of it. Even your statue of Gaia the earth mother goddess.
Then let them put that in their bongs and puff on it for a while.
Firelock,
That may sound good on paper, and I agree with the sentiment. OTOH, that kind of statement coming out in court would very likely affect the outcome of a trial; and not to the advantage of the plaintiff. As Abe Lincoln said; "Better to be thought a fool than speak up and remove all doubt".
You can be reasonably sure the bad guys left some evidence for the authorities. Even DNA on a tossed cigarette butt has been successfully used in court.
Hi Norm!
I know what I said may sound over the top, but it's exactly what stopped the eco-terrorism in the logging industry in the Pacific Northwest. Remember hearing about chainsaw blades being broken by steel implants in the trees, and the subsequent injuries to the loggers? It was civil as well as criminal actions that put a stop to it. I haven't heard about those type of shenanigans in a long time.
It's been tried. It works.
Could be eco-sabotage. Or a disgruntled former worker. Or could also be that the line's owner is looking for some insurance money for a business that he sees likely ending. As you say, "it's been tried. It works (sometimes)."
I doiubt the last. The railroad people have and are expending a whale of a lot of effort to prove the case that the track should stay. A lot of emotional effort as well!
schlimmCould be eco-sabotage. Or a disgruntled former worker. Or could also be that the line's owner is looking for some insurance money for a business that he sees likely ending. As you say, "it's been tried. It works (sometimes)."
Eco-sabotage is a possibility, given the whole trail saga.
New York State owns the ROW. If the line goes away, they'll still own the ROW, there's just a question of what it will become.
Some of the trail advocates have been involved with the railroad in the past. I guess you could consider them disgruntled in that they haven't gotten their way so far (and hopefully never).
There's a $10,000 reward for arrest and conviction - that may be enough to loosen the lips of someone who knows about what happened.
But it's all speculation at this point. The authorities may have more information, but per usual, they won't be tipping their hand unless it will aid them in the investigation.
In the meantime, the railroad plugs on, with Thendara and Utica trains running as usual, and the railroad will be hosting a Halloween event at the Saranac Lake Union Station whether the trains are running or not.
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