eagle1030 Tree, I'd like to congratulate (at least I think so) on the apparent victory. (Check the News Wire) I fear, however, that this isn't the end.
Tree, I'd like to congratulate (at least I think so) on the apparent victory. (Check the News Wire) I fear, however, that this isn't the end.
I characterize it as a skirmish won - the war is far from over. Psychologically, though, it is an important event, as it occured on the trail advocates home turf.
The comment period for the review of the Unit Management Plan (UMP) ends today. Indications from a variety of sources indicate that we on the rail side should be cautiously optomistic.
The trail advocates have been labelled of late as elitists who seek to keep "outsiders" out of "their" forest. Many members of one group they enlisted as allies (the snowmobilers) have seen through the ruse and have realized that should the tracks be lifted, their trail will cease to exist. While they greatly dislike the steel rails, they'd prefer them to losing the trail entirely.
The trail advocates are licking their wounds on one factor - they thought the UMP had been "re-opened" which could involve changes in the plan. On the strength of that assumption, they were essentially claiming victory. Instead, the state is "reviewing" whether to even re-open the UMP - kinda like doing research on which car you want before you actually start going out and visiting dealers. If your research doesn't reveal a car that interests you, you won't go out physically shopping.
We won't know the results of the review until the end of the year or so. Until then, we keep our fingers crossed.
Thanks to all those who sent letters of support.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
It may be a small victory...but it is an excellent start to big victory.
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tree68 wrote the following post at Sun, Sep 1 2013 8:56 PM:
[snip]"...A small, but very vocal group has been pushing for the removal of the rails from the old NYC Adirondack Division, to be replaced by a hiking an biking trail.
At this point, they have been successful in convincing NY state to review the "Unit Management Plan," (http://www.dec.ny.gov/docs/lands_forests_pdf/remplacidump.pdf) which currently calls for rail operations during warm weather and use as a snowmobile trail in the winter. So far, this arrangement has worked just fine.
The trail advocates insist that 20,000 (or is it 250,000? The number seems to vary) people per year would use this "world class trail." The trail would run through several wilderness areas of the Adirondacks. Many portions of the trail would be extremely remote, with no cell phone service or any other services for that matter.
Your own experience with local trails may help color that assertion.
The Adirondack Scenic Railroad has carried over 1.2 million people in the past 21 years. Currently the operation includes 22 miles of trackage over a short line, 40 miles of active track (Remsen-Big Moose) and another 10 miles of active track between Lake Placid and Saranac Lake. The entire corridor is on the National Register of Historic Places..."[snip]
I am in agreement with some of the other Posters on this. It would seem that the "TRAIL ADVOCATES" are making a stab at neutralizing the whole operation by singling out the Remsen to Lake Placid segment. Sort of going for the regulatory, low-hanging fruit, if you will. Their plan seems to ultimately gut the Tourist Rail Operation of the ASR; by removing a middle portion of the potential operational area of the ASR.
The fact that the cel phone service in a large portion of the line could be troubling and problematic. It is similar on the Appalachian Trail. There have be a number of 'disappearances' of hikers over the last few years. Communications along that trail is spotty, inconsistent. Potentially, a similar set -up for the trail in your area(should that happen(?). Hard to make provisions for Emergencies when there is no provision for quick communications, or emergency response. The numbers that the Trail Addvocates seem to put out are not new to their arguments. They throw out numbers without statistical verifications and allow the responding party no time to verify, They overwhelm the listener with all sort of figures that are either unsubstantiated or just vague references.
I hope the groups and supporters for the ASR do not get lulled into a false sense of security by this'win'. The individuals driving the advocacy for the trail generally have an agenda. Key is to find out what that is. Just having a bicycle trail to ride on is, IMHo a smoke-screen for something else.
So good luck with this fight, Larry and The ASR!
In theory the Rails to Trails idea is good. A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. I cannot think of one trail that has been reverted back to rail although there could be some out there.
Now that the comment period is closed, it's a waiting game to find out what those who will make the decision to go beyond reviewing the UMP will decide.
In the meantime, the ARPS board president has brought up a couple of points that many others have considered:
http://www.adirondackdailyenterprise.com/page/content.detail/id/539058/Elitists-skew-truth-about-railroad.html?nav=5041
This is in line with my contention that the "trail advocates" aren't advocating a trail at all...
This line was formally abandoned by PC in 1972. In 1974, PC began removing the rails with the intention of selling off the right of way to help pay back taxes on the line. However, with Lake Placid poised to receive the nod for the 1980 Winter Olympics, NYS was persuaded to but the line for possible use during the Olympics. In the end, the railroad only carried about 5,000 people on trains that usually ran very late due, in part, to poor track. The operation tried to continue the following summer, but numerous derailments led to an embargo on most of the line with bankruptcy following in 1981.
The line continues to be owned by NYS and the ASR operates as a tourist line under a short-term lease arrangement. So, yes the line was abandoned, and now there is some rail activity; but I don't believe the ASR has common carrier status. It therefore seems that it is NUS that can decide what use(s) will be made of their right of way.
tgoodwin In the end, the railroad only carried about 5,000 people on trains that usually ran very late due, in part, to poor track. The operation tried to continue the following summer, but numerous derailments led to an embargo on most of the line with bankruptcy following in 1981. The line continues to be owned by NYS and the ASR operates as a tourist line under a short-term lease arrangement. So, yes the line was abandoned, and now there is some rail activity; but I don't believe the ASR has common carrier status.
In the end, the railroad only carried about 5,000 people on trains that usually ran very late due, in part, to poor track. The operation tried to continue the following summer, but numerous derailments led to an embargo on most of the line with bankruptcy following in 1981.
The line continues to be owned by NYS and the ASR operates as a tourist line under a short-term lease arrangement. So, yes the line was abandoned, and now there is some rail activity; but I don't believe the ASR has common carrier status.
How many passengers carried currently? How many carloads of freight? Sounds like it serves little economic purpose unless things have improved a great deal in the 32 years.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
schlimmHow many passengers carried currently? How many carloads of freight? Sounds like it serves little economic purpose unless things have improved a great deal in the 32 years.
The railroad will carry over 70,000 passengers this year on its in-service trackage, and has carried about 1.3 Million overall (22 years).
The trail advocates tout the "thousands" of people who will use the trail, but their numbers have been proven to be overly optomistic. One example they cite actually uses attendance figures of two adjacent state parks that can't even access that particular trail, as verified with the trail coordinator.
Local merchants who have experienced the business brought in by the railroad are all for it.
Snowmobilers can already use the ROW from December through April. Upgrading the tracks will have zero effect on that market, and removing the rails would only slightly lengthen the sledding season.
There is a growing sentiment that those who advocate for the trail actually simply want everyone out of "their" woods. Even the snowmobile community is figuring out that if the tracks come up, the snowmobile trail will be gone as well (as verified through several sources).
The "green" community is waiting in the wings. They've already shown their colors with a recent protest regarding the improvement of several existing snowmobile trails. If the "trail advocates" are successful in getting the rails lifted, the "green" folks will then make their presence known.
Things have improved. 70K is a lot for a seasonal operation. Thank you for the info.
ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good.
...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good.
Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good".
"Ladies and gentlemen, I have some good news and some bad news. The bad news is that both engines have failed, and we will be stuck here for some time. The good news is that you decided to take the train and not fly."
EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good".
That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way.
The 70,000 figure includes a significant number who ride their Polar Express trains. These trains only use the private tracks for the first few miles up from Utica. Current STB regulations allow a round trip passenger to be counted twice, so the number of actual riders on the Adirondack Rail Corridor is certainly less than 70,000. Some businesses in Old Forge and Thendara have benefitted from the railroad, but that service will continue. North of there where there has been a tourist operation for 12 years, over 400 businesses have signed a petition saying that the railroad has not helped them and that they prefer a trail.
The NYS Snowmobile Association has a five month lease on the corridor. Two years ago they barely got a month of use on the southern end and virtually no use on the northern end where (paradoxically) less snow falls. Last winter was a bit better, but the northern end only had about two weeks of good conditions due to the protruding rails.
I am aware that R.J. Corman had to wage a fight to restore about ten miles of rail bed that had become a trail. However, as I understand it, their purpose in the restoration was to service a new landfill that would be taking trash from cities. Do you think that, just maybe, the real opposition was to the landfill and not to the loss of the trail?
No. The opposition is mainly from one or two remote resorts or camps which do not want people around. Those above Old Forge/Thendara Bay who don't see a benefit from the tourist train are right. But if a train were to be able to traverse to Tupper, Saranac Lake and Lake Placid, there would be economic gains there. This has to be looked at on two different levels: the day tripper daisey pickers tourist ride and the actual traditional rail passenger service enabling people to ride into and out of the area with the extra dividend of perhaps some kind of freight service if warranted. My personal opinion is that I would rather see some kind of rail service in and out of the mountains than have the roads clogged and beaten up by trucks and millions of cars. Not that it would necessarily be that extensive, but it would be helpful.
tgoodwin ...... The NYS Snowmobile Association has a five month lease on the corridor. Two years ago they barely got a month of use on the southern end and virtually no use on the northern end where (paradoxically) less snow falls. Last winter was a bit better, but the northern end only had about two weeks of good conditions due to the protruding rails. .....
......
.....
How does that compare with the snowmobile season on other trails in the area? It sounds to me like conditions are quite marginal for snowmobiles for most of a fairly short winter.
The trend I have seen in eastern Canada over some 50 years is that winters are generally getting milder and the snow pack less. Some years may buck the trend and the winter sports enthusiasts get to enjoy a better season, but then next year the frustration returns. Maybe only one really good week of snow and you had other commitments.....
John
There are hundreds of miles of snow mobile trails up there...no need to confiscate railbeds for more.
henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way.
Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle.
tgoodwinCurrent STB regulations allow a round trip passenger to be counted twice, so the number of actual riders on the Adirondack Rail Corridor is certainly less than 70,000.
Some businesses in Old Forge and Thendara have benefitted from the railroad, but that service will continue. North of there where there has been a tourist operation for 12 years, over 400 businesses have signed a petition saying that the railroad has not helped them and that they prefer a trail.
One must always remember, too, that the trail advocates have inflated their numbers just as badly. And they never seem to mention the trails that were built, sometimes at a cost of millions of dollars, that are now closed.
When the fall "leaf peepers" are riding, they will sometimes comment about the "quality" of the colors. I generally joke with them that I simply didn't have enough time to paint all the leaves. So it is with snow. In a good snow year, everyone benefits. In a bad snow year, everyone suffers.
Since the trail advocates generally say that getting rid of the rails would add maybe two weeks to each end of the season, not having them in place would have made for a six week season (maybe). And then there are all those other trails they can ride anyhow.
Of course, I know the sledders around where I live will run the trails here based on a forecast of snow...
And I've talked to a good number of snowmobilers who are very aware that the probablity of the trail being completely closed once the rails are lifted is very high. As much as a "pain" as the rails are, they'd prefer to deal with them rather than lose the trail altogether.
The only people lifting the rails will benefit is the one who wants a road where there isn't one now, and the folks who see visitors to the Adirondack Park as interlopers and will embrace any tactic to keep the outsiders out.
EMD.Don henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way. Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle.
Sorry, but this is a different situation than normal railroading in that track has been relaid where none existed. And there have been other situations where track has been relaid, too. In railroading, we can never say never. The Adirondacks rail lines are remote and not in high price urban areas and tourism has been the industry for many years...they value the rail line for that reason and not as a freight line or as a commuter line. It has a different value to many in the local population.
henry6 EMD.Don henry6 EMD.Don ccltrains ...A corridor is saved should in the future it is needed for rail operation again. The problem comes if and when the trail needs to be converted back to rail. You have not seen what venom the trail people can spew when their coveted trail is going to be taken away for the better good. Once the tracks and ties have been removed the odds of new tracks ever being laid again are slim to none. It would have to be a National Emergency to get certain segments of society to ever willingly allow tracks to be reinstalled over trails or "green areas" that were once railway tracks (even then I suspect there would some folks chaining themselves to trees, rocks, or each other to prevent tracks and ties to be relaid). It's the old adage, "once they are gone...they are gone for good". That's old thinking...and contrary as to what has already happened here. Many miles of track have been laid and more is planned. And what has to be clarified for this discussion is that it is, right now, totally a tourist passenger line bringing people into the mountains for day trips...extension to Tupper Lake and connections to Saranac Lake and Lake Placid could introduce at least Amtrak connecting services at Utica which would enhance the railroad. Whether or not freight is being considered or is even viable at this point is not known nor have I seen it discussed. The value of the line right now is being weighed on bringing people into and out of the mountains, keeping road traffic down somewhat, allowing people to see the area away from roads and highways, and doing in an environmentally friendly way. Sorry, it's not old thinking where I live I can assure you (and research other areas where rails have been totally lifted to provide for "green space" and or recreational space/trails and compare that with how many of those removed rails/railway sections have been relaid to create a new rail service of some kind). Now, this situation in this thread may be different then it is around here because it sounds like no rails have been removed...yet...but rather maintained. However, once RTT or some other organization actually gets rails and ties completely lifted for the purpose of creating recreational trails where a railroad once existed then you can forget ever getting the trail reverted back to a functioning railroad...tourist or otherwise...without a monumental battle. Sorry, but this is a different situation than normal railroading in that track has been relaid where none existed. And there have been other situations where track has been relaid, too. In railroading, we can never say never. The Adirondacks rail lines are remote and not in high price urban areas and tourism has been the industry for many years...they value the rail line for that reason and not as a freight line or as a commuter line. It has a different value to many in the local population.
So, as I wrote in one of my replies, this situation is different (which is good), but my point is still not old thinking and my argument still stands for most others. When or if "Rails to Trails" (or similar organizations) get involved and actually win the right to rip up rails and ties for recreational or "green space" it is game over. It's called "Rails to Trails" after all and not "Rails to Trails to Rails"....
Have there been instances of trails being turned back into rails?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I don't feel the need to quote the previous posts. Hope this post isn't lost under a lot of quotes.
Riders from Lake Placid to Saranac Lake do get off and are therefore counted as two passengers. I assume that riders from Utica to Thendara/Big Moose are also counted as two passengers. So now the earlier poster admitted that the number of individual passengers should be reduced to 50,000 from 70,000. That reduction says that most passengers ride either just the out and back excursion from Thendara or the Polar Express. That questions the demand for any longer excursions or passenger service.
Remember that this is very thin territory; and, absent the Olympics, Lake Placid's draw is not exactly the same as the Grand Canyon. Additionally, economics dictated that the NYC wanted to abandon this line as early as the 1950s. Since then the population has not increased, but highways and air service have been significantly improved. We can all lament that tax dollars were allocated to interstates rather than railroads; but now spending millions of tax dollars to restore this line will neither erase the effect of the interstates nor encourage more passengers to take a six hour ride from Utica to Lake Placid.
Time will tell how current rail trails in the end go back to rails. Most all rail lines were originally built when the competition was horse and wagon. When it was a multi-day trip from Utica to Lake Placid, the six hour train was a "no-brainer". And the days of the local stopping at each town's freight house are long gone - think UPS. Rail still has enormous efficiencies in the right places, but the grossly overbuilt system just has had to shrink. Look at the glass as "half-full" and be thankful that rail to trail advocates are willing to step up and preserve these rights of way in the event that they are later needed.
There are currently 1,600 rail trails in the country. Obviously not every trail has been a "complete" success, but most have developed a following and are being maintained on a regular basis. I'm interested to hear of specific examples of rail trails that have been abandoned as that may inform the current debate in the Adirondacks.
Alas, failed trails don't have websites or otherwise tout their failures. That can make them hard to find. Evidence will have to be anecdotal - folks who know of a trail in their area that hasn't lived up to expectations.
I haven't gone searching for that information.
There is reference in an earlier post to a trail whose director is looking for maintenance funding.
I'm still searching my email, etc, for the account of a multi-million dollar project in Colorado that apparently has turned into nothing. And it's right next to a very popular rail operation.
It's funny you mention the Grand Canyon. There are those who have compared a Utica-Lake Placid trip to the ride to the Grand Canyon. The length is similar, and I would hope that the Lake Placid area thinks of itself as a tourist attraction. Just think of all the hikers a train could bring into the area!
tree68Alas, failed trails don't have websites or otherwise tout their failures. That can make them hard to find. Evidence will have to be anecdotal - folks who know of a trail in their area that hasn't lived up to expectations.
I have seen this linked to in various places.
Bike trails do best in suburban areas of metro areas. The 61 mile Illinois Prairie Path is celebrating its 50th anniversery this year. The Prairie Path corporation is currently in the midst of a three month survey to determine how many people use the path, what they use it for and how much money is spent alongside it. Believe me, many segments are heavily patronized, including by members of thses forums. But I wish at times it were still the CA&E!!.
cp8905 I have seen this linked to in various places.
Thanks. I'm sure there are many, many more.
Tree: We know a little too much about the Kellar Branch. Not stated was how gullible the local politicians were and how they battered the city employees into a no-win situation compounded with an irrational Pioneer Railcorp leadership. The people pushing the politician's buttons mysteriously/ conveniently disappeared.
Schlimm,
We have trails in the Detroit metro area. When I cross one there are very seldom people using them. They prefer to ride two abreast on a two lane highway and obstruct traffic
Old ROW's in northern lower Michigan are snowmobile trails that get considerable use in winter but are vacant when there is now snow.
Norm
The IL Prairie Path has bikers and maybe even more walkers and joggers, even some horeback riders. It is heavily used, as is the Great Western Trail (not as heavily). on spring summer and fall weekends with good weather, the IPP is overcrowded in some sections.
My older son and his family live adjacent to the Illinois Prairie Path. When the grandchildren were younger, I would meet my wife at their house after work, which involved a ride on the C&NW West Line and the walk from the station would include a section of the Prairie Path. I agree totally with schlimm about the high usage on the Prairie Path.
It is important to note one major difference between IPP and the trail that is being proposed by the Adirondack trail advocates - people. IPP looks like it has a nearby resident population that probably numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
The Adirondack rail corridor passes though areas with a resident population of near zero (particularly between Big Moose and Tupper Lake). Any comparison between the two is virtually useless, as they are two completely different animals.
Does anyone have any information on who uses IPP? That is, local residents vs people travelling from outside the area? From their web page, I gather it's chiefly local residents.
Note, too, that IPP is privately owned (albeit by a NFP). They sell memberships.
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