Murray Murphy Siding Bucyrus It is obvious to me that quoted expert, Dan Christie, is pushing an agenda on behalf of organized labor. Can't be. It already been proven on this forum that the words mean exactly what they say. So, unless he said he was pushing an agenda, he wasn't pushing an agenda Yes but....what if he was pushing an agenda?
Murphy Siding Bucyrus It is obvious to me that quoted expert, Dan Christie, is pushing an agenda on behalf of organized labor. Can't be. It already been proven on this forum that the words mean exactly what they say. So, unless he said he was pushing an agenda, he wasn't pushing an agenda
Bucyrus It is obvious to me that quoted expert, Dan Christie, is pushing an agenda on behalf of organized labor.
It is obvious to me that quoted expert, Dan Christie, is pushing an agenda on behalf of organized labor.
Yes but....what if he was pushing an agenda?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding Murray Murphy Siding Bucyrus It is obvious to me that quoted expert, Dan Christie, is pushing an agenda on behalf of organized labor. Can't be. It already been proven on this forum that the words mean exactly what they say. So, unless he said he was pushing an agenda, he wasn't pushing an agenda Yes but....what if he was pushing an agenda? I'm sorry. You know the rules. The words only mean what they mean. They are prohibited from meaning anything they don't mean. That's clearly the way it is, unless it's a different way.
Yes but...even by acknowledging that rules are rules, except in Wisconsin where it is void where prohibited by law, can one in fact push an agenda?
Silly wabbits. Trix are for kids. Or for people who can only indulge in inanity to get a thread locked to silence Bucyrus. Why not try acting like adults? Ignore him.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
Murray Yes but...even by acknowledging that rules are rules, except in Wisconsin where it is void where prohibited by law, can one in fact push an agenda?
Actually one should push an agenda only in opinionated speculation. One should never "in fact" push an agenda - it rarely works!
Sorry - couldn't resist.
John
Let us be fair. Organized or unorganized or disorganized labor isn't the issue.
What I condlue is that MM&A lacked a Safety-First Culture. That shortcuts that would not have been tolerated on any Class I and almost all other regionals and short lines were tolerated on MM&A.
A late report on the Tortous Tattler, which I read as recommended by Fred Frailey, states that:
Another MM&A oil train was found parked on a main line elsewhere, unattended, and with only the locamotive handbrakes applied an zero handbrakes on the tankcars themselves. Three units, six handbrakes!
Unltimately it is management. As far as I am concerned, finding the second train proves it to me.
You may consider me unfair, but that is how i see things. Have a track mainainer as the eyes for a locomotive fire? Having him go home aftter the fire is put out? Too many decisions were made by others in this case to solely blame the engineer. Again, the higher the rank the greater the responsibility.
daveklepper A late report on the Tortous Tattler, which I read as recommended by Fred Frailey, states that: Another MM&A oil train was found parked on a main line elsewhere, unattended, and with only the locamotive handbrakes applied an zero handbrakes on the tankcars themselves. Three units, six handbrakes!
And what was the source of that report? If it was the press. it's value is dubious. Questions regarding that need to be answered. Was the train left in a secure location? Was anyone watching it to be certain it wasn't tampered with? It's very likely those questions will never be answered, but the media always assumes rather than garner factual information. Labor strife hasn't been mentioned in any report I've read, but I'd bet there is an underlying factor here that hasn't surfaced.
Norm
I am surprised that some see no organized labor issue in this MM&A wreck. Maybe it is because I have read every shred of news on it, but to me the labor versus management element could not be more obvious. It centers on the issue of using one-man crews on MM&A, but in general, MM&A and Burkhardt alone seem to have become symbols of corporate greed that will cut every safety corner possible to make the bottom line better. Note for you shades of gray types: I am not saying that I feel that way about the MM&A or Burkhardt. I do not know if MM&A lacks a safety culture, but organized labor is seizing the opportunity to say that they do.
In the largest perspective of the news, at least half the general public believes that the political philosophy of deregulation is wrong because it cuts corners in safety; and they believe that the MM&A wreck proves it. Happy Labor Day.
daveklepper Let us be fair. Organized or unorganized or disorganized labor isn't the issue. What I condlue is that MM&A lacked a Safety-First Culture. That shortcuts that would not have been tolerated on any Class I and almost all other regionals and short lines were tolerated on MM&A. A late report on the Tortous Tattler, which I read as recommended by Fred Frailey, states that: Another MM&A oil train was found parked on a main line elsewhere, unattended, and with only the locamotive handbrakes applied an zero handbrakes on the tankcars themselves. Three units, six handbrakes! Unltimately it is management. As far as I am concerned, finding the second train proves it to me.
You say that organized labor [versus management] is not the issue, and then you immediately conclude that managaement is at fault for the unsecured, second oil train.
All we know about the second oil train is that no handbrakes were set on the tank cars when it was inspected several days after the runaway of the first oil train. We do not know that handbrakes were not set on the second train when it tied up. We do know that the second train was accessible to the general public because a video was posted that showed apparently unauthorized people tampering with the locomotive.
And regardless of what happened with the second oil train, it proves nothing about the first oil train.
schlimm Silly wabbits. Trix are for kids. Or for people who can only indulge in inanity to get a thread locked to silence Bucyrus. Why not try acting like adults? Ignore him.
BaltACD edblysard I think he is pushing the agenda of doing away with one man crews…the hoodwink here is that on crews with a conductor and an engineer, the engineer ties down the locomotive(s), and the conductor ties down the cars, so it is still one man tying down the “experts” 20 cars. If it is taking him 3-5 minutes per hand brake, perhaps the expert needs to return to brakeman's school, as his time in the engineers seat has stunted his physical abilities.
edblysard I think he is pushing the agenda of doing away with one man crews…the hoodwink here is that on crews with a conductor and an engineer, the engineer ties down the locomotive(s), and the conductor ties down the cars, so it is still one man tying down the “experts” 20 cars.
I think he is pushing the agenda of doing away with one man crews…the hoodwink here is that on crews with a conductor and an engineer, the engineer ties down the locomotive(s), and the conductor ties down the cars, so it is still one man tying down the “experts” 20 cars.
If it is taking him 3-5 minutes per hand brake, perhaps the expert needs to return to brakeman's school, as his time in the engineers seat has stunted his physical abilities.
If it takes him 3 to 5 minutes per brake, he's probably on overtime.
Jeff
"On the last thread, several forum members were rash enough to challenge the infallible viewpoint, and had their posts taken down by the moderator, being told not to mention that the Emperor was not wearing any clothes. So instead of a discussion, we get a one way cascade of words, with no one allowed to question them."
I guess dissenting opinions are no longer acceptable to the emperor.
Quote user Murphy Siding:
Norm48327I guess dissenting opinions are no longer acceptable to the emperor.
Nobody has been prevented or discouraged from challenging or questioning anyone. What was taken down was not challenges, questions, dissenting opinions, or any part of civil conversation.
Bucyrus Quote user Murphy Siding: "On the last thread, several forum members were rash enough to challenge the infallible viewpoint, and had their posts taken down by the moderator, being told not to mention that the Emperor was not wearing any clothes. So instead of a discussion, we get a one way cascade of words, with no one allowed to question them." Norm48327I guess dissenting opinions are no longer acceptable to the emperor. Nobody has been prevented or discouraged from challenging or questioning anyone. What was taken down was not challenges, questions, dissenting opinions, or any part of civil conversation.
I beg to differ with you and/or others hiding 'neath their mother's skirt that pushed the "Panic Button".
.
How can anyone have a civil discussion when some posters here do nothing but produce their own series of mind-numbing OVERLY-LONG monologues fill with over generalizations hypothetical questions and incorrect presumptive answers which are completely devoid of good and solid analytic conclusions?
Murphy Siding schlimm Silly wabbits. Trix are for kids. Or for people who can only indulge in inanity to get a thread locked to silence Bucyrus. Why not try acting like adults? Ignore him. I understand what you're saying. You're a bystander here. Let me ask you a question. This is one of about 6 threads about the exact same thing. Each of those threads has included a smothering by the exact same poster, saying the exact same things over and over, in what appears to be almost a vendetta against a railroad president. In one of those threads, we were told in no uncertain terms, that the words meant what the words meant. There was no way to interpret them any other way. Now, on this thread, the exact same poster who made that proclamation, wants the rule to apply differently this time, to his, and his only, viewpoint. On the last thread, several forum members were rash enough to challenge the infallible viewpoint, and had their posts taken down by the moderator, being told not to mention that the Emperor was not wearing any clothes. So instead of a discussion, we get a one way cascade of words, with no one allowed to question them. As a bystander, does that seem right to you?
Bravo Murphy Siding!
Very well said!!!!!!!
Enough with the multiple threads already.
cx500 Murray Yes but...even by acknowledging that rules are rules, except in Wisconsin where it is void where prohibited by law, can one in fact push an agenda? Actually one should push an agenda only in opinionated speculation. One should never "in fact" push an agenda - it rarely works! Sorry - couldn't resist. John
You should only push an agenda if you have someone there to put it in gear and pop the clutch....
23 17 46 11
That’s your idea of words having a meaning? Words have meanings. It is not complicated.
Murray Murphy Siding schlimm Silly wabbits. Trix are for kids. Or for people who can only indulge in inanity to get a thread locked to silence Bucyrus. Why not try acting like adults? Ignore him. I understand what you're saying. You're a bystander here. Let me ask you a question. This is one of about 6 threads about the exact same thing. Each of those threads has included a smothering by the exact same poster, saying the exact same things over and over, in what appears to be almost a vendetta against a railroad president. In one of those threads, we were told in no uncertain terms, that the words meant what the words meant. There was no way to interpret them any other way. Now, on this thread, the exact same poster who made that proclamation, wants the rule to apply differently this time, to his, and his only, viewpoint. On the last thread, several forum members were rash enough to challenge the infallible viewpoint, and had their posts taken down by the moderator, being told not to mention that the Emperor was not wearing any clothes. So instead of a discussion, we get a one way cascade of words, with no one allowed to question them. As a bystander, does that seem right to you? Bravo Murphy Siding! Very well said!!!!!!! Enough with the multiple threads already.
Again, if you all dislike these multiple threads, why not simply ignore them, whoever the poster is? I think you would find the threads would quickly become monologues, which would die from lack of attention. All you accomplish by whining and posting inanities is to look silly and to reinforce the behavior you claim to dislike. In a sense, you are as responsible for the six or so threads as Bucyrus is. And now to return to a bystander role and sanity.
It was actually three threads. But there may be more, considering all the interest.
Where did you get the figure of “at least half of the general population” and how in the world do you tie deregulation into anything to do with safety?
Can you cite a source for both figures and the statement?
Deregulation had nothing to do whatsoever with crew size, it dealt with the ability to set competitive prices.
By the time Staggers became law, most Class One roads had gone to a 3 man crew, engineer, conductor and brakeman, and most had two man crews, engineer and conductor on their unit and long haul trains.
The MM&A is a open shop railroad, so of course, the organized labor unions in Canada have, and will continue to use this accident as a means to either unionize the MM&A or kill it in its current form.
I am surprised that the TSB and the unions have not pointed out that some of the First AId kits on the MM&A are out of Band-Aids.
If that means getting in bed with the Canadian government, which is itself very “labor” friendly, then so be it, the more the merrier it seems.
Unless you worked at the MM&A, no one here really knows if there was or is a safety culture present, but I can offer up this fact.
Parked since July 6th, the train at Vachon didn’t move, even after vandals had some “fun” on it.
That fact is not contested, but it is also rarely mentioned in all the suppositions, suppositories and jiffy lube statements made here and in the press…the train did not move.
And lastly, from the video in the first linked report…there appears to be only one single locomotive in the consist at Vachon, so where is the five handbrake number coming from, unless the footage in the video is stock footage and not of that particular train, which leads one to wonder why they choose to show something other than the actual train they are reporting on, or they have failed in their journalistic duties and don’t have the facts correct, and are simply repeating what they are fed in sound bites.
Trust me; it is really hard to tie five handbrakes on a single locomotive!
In any debate, there is of course an opposing position, and dissention is to be expected.
The postings that were removed were neither insulting nor rude, but simply a way some posters chose to express their disagreement and to have fun at the same time.
Keep in mind Bucyrus didn’t start this thread, he simply hijacked it,
Nothing was there that was not completely civil, nor were the jokes “inane”, unless you didn’t understand the joke and the symbolism….of course, calling something you dislike or don’t grasp as “inane” is also simply expressing a personal opinion.
Any position opened to debate, especially one that expresses an opinion should be able to withstand something as simple as a joke, if that position is based on established and cited facts and the person defending that position is prepared with those facts, instead of supposition and guesses.
When presenting an opinion in a public forum, one should make it quite clear that what you are expressing is just that, your opinion, but if you present your opinion as if it carried the weight of established and cited facts, one should be prepared to be challenged to produce evidence, none of which seems to have appeared here.
Simply crying foul, and complaining about being picked on, is hardly a good way to support ones position, and if that position is so weak that a few one line jokes can erode its foundation and makes the poster and his defenders feel threatened, then maybe the original position is not quite as defendable as the poster wishes.
In simpler words, if ya cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
Deep Purple’s “Smoke on the Water” rules!
RRKenI suggest a poll. Anyone who does not like multiple threads please pet your armadillo at 02:45 am next Saturday. I now return you to insanity.
I now return you to insanity.
The Tattler is usually reliable, and if the general public had access to a second petroliiumm train, again it is evedence of a lack of a Safety Culture, regardlwss of what it may not prove about the first train.
My participation iin this thread is mainly to make the point that there is no way the engineer can be held totally responsible. That is the main point I wished to make and still do. As for Ed Burkhardt, the higher the rank the greater the responsibility.
I do not expect the engineer to be held totally at fault. I would not be surprised to see him totally vindicated.
edblysard In any debate, there is of course an opposing position, and dissention is to be expected. The postings that were removed were neither insulting nor rude, but simply a way some posters chose to express their disagreement with the original assumption of the thread starter, and to have fun at the same time. Nothing was there that was not completely civil, nor were the jokes “inane”, unless you didn’t understand the joke and the symbolism….of course, calling something you dislike or don’t grasp as “inane” is also simply expressing a personal opinion. Any position opened to debate, especially one that expresses an opinion should be able to withstand something as simple as a joke, if that position is based on established and cited facts and the person defending that position is prepared with those facts, instead of supposition and guesses. When presenting an opinion in a public forum, one should make it quite clear that what you are expressing is just that, your opinion, but if you present your opinion as if it carried the weight of established and cited facts, one should be prepared to be challenged to produce evidence, none of which seems to have appeared here. Simply crying foul, and complaining about being picked on, is hardly a good way to support ones position, and if that position is so weak that a few one line jokes can erode its foundation and makes the poster and his defenders feel threatened, then maybe the original position is not quite as defendable as the poster wishes. In simpler words, if ya cant stand the heat, get out of the kitchen.
The postings that were removed were neither insulting nor rude, but simply a way some posters chose to express their disagreement with the original assumption of the thread starter, and to have fun at the same time.
I have no objection to dissention. I have made many statements which I have said were my opinion, but I think it goes without saying on the forum. I have also supplied many links to references. I had nothing to do with the moderator’s decision to remove that last round of posts in the other thread. And I don’t feel that anything has threatened my position or eroded the foundation of any part of my last three threads. Actually, I kind of like a hot kitchen.
Now we’re cooking with gas, hot kitchens can be fun too.
By the way, I edited my post to reflect that you were not the original poster for this thread, as that would be AgentKid.
And while, way out there on the edge of the real world, Tom Hardin might by some slim chance be vindicated in some small manner, his career as a railroader is most certainly done.
I doubt he will ever step foot on any railroad property for any reason other than to give depositions and offer evidence.
It makes no difference if he did everything right, or everything wrong for that matter, his position as “the crewman” on the train has sealed his fate.
edblysard In the largest perspective of the news, at least half the general public believes that the political philosophy of deregulation is wrong because it cuts corners in safety; and they believe that the MM&A wreck proves it. Happy Labor Day. Where did you get the figure of “at least half of the general population” and how in the world do you tie deregulation into anything to do with safety? Can you cite a source for both figures and the statement? Deregulation had nothing to do whatsoever with crew size, it dealt with the ability to set competitive prices.
No I can’t cite specific numbers. When I say half the population, I am speaking only as my estimate extrapolated from news articles and the many comments following them. They speak of deregulation as being the cause of the MM&A wreck. I understand your point about deregulation being about rates, but people speaking out in Canada are tying deregulation to the one-man crew which is being widely blamed for the wreck. I do not know if that is properly referred to a regulation, but my sense is that when speaking of regulation and deregulation, it goes much further than just railroad rates. I would think that it goes to everything the Federal government says you can and cannot do. In this country, regulation gets into light bulbs and water faucets.
daveklepperAnother MM&A oil train was found parked on a main line elsewhere, unattended, and with only the locamotive handbrakes applied an zero handbrakes on the tankcars themselves. Three units, six handbrakes!
Getting back to a topic here,
How does one figure 6 handbrakes from 3 engines? All engines I have seen have one handbrake per. I know sometimes MMA used RCO cabooses, and a lot of them have 2 handbrakes (one each end) so that would give 5 if they were applied. Can't figure out the math.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
I am only recounting what I read on "The Tortous Tatler" blog recommended by Fred Frrailey which I receive regularly. Don't some diesel electrics have separately applied handbrakes for each of the two trucks? That is what I assumed from his statement.
daveklepper I am only recounting what I read on "The Tortous Tatler" blog recommended by Fred Frrailey which I receive regularly. Don't some diesel electrics have separately applied handbrakes for each of the two trucks? That is what I assumed from his statement.
None that I've ever seen. Granted I've never seen every diesel electric, but considering the MMA's roster...
Norm and Bucrus: Cannot boh of you agree that:
1. The basic cause of the accident was that the engineer did not set a sufficient number of handbakes
2. The engineer may not have the major blame for the fact that he did not set asufficient number of handbrakes becuase he was following the orders of someone who in turn may hve been just following company policy,
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