Ulrich Irving has a lot of other business interests besides oil...frozen foods, timber and building supplies, pulp & paper. They also own several large trucking companies, railroads, a shipping company and who knows what else. The railroad might make sense for them even without the oil..
Irving has a lot of other business interests besides oil...frozen foods, timber and building supplies, pulp & paper. They also own several large trucking companies, railroads, a shipping company and who knows what else. The railroad might make sense for them even without the oil..
Exactly! Irving has large timber holdings here in Maine, several sawmills, pulp & paper operations. You see tons of lumber & building materials in lumber yards here, all neatly wrapped in plastic with the Irving logo on it. A lot of these forest products are loaded, switched & dispersed out of the Brownville Junction rail yard. It's a key point in the rail system here & it needs to get up & running again. The rail line from Lac Megantic through central Maine to Brownville Junction is a transportation cost saving "shortcut" across Maine from Montreal & Quebec to New Brunswick. There are rail connections at Brownville & at Northern Maine Junction in Hermon directly to Saint John NB, where Irving is headquartered & has their refinery & shipping terminal. Without that shortcut across Maine, rail traffic has to go all the way up the St. Lawrence Valley, around the top of Maine & then all the way down the western side of New Brunswick along the St. John River Valley to St. John. Nearly 3 times as long a journey as cutting across central Maine. It would simply make great economic sense for Irving to take over the MMA line.
Carl
"I could never belong to any club that would have me as a member."
I would think Irving's main interest would be in crude oil transport to their refinery in St John. However, one Canadian in these threads thought that Quebec would prevent crude from ever being transported on this line again. And even if it was, it would only be for a short time, as (TransCanada?) has already said they will build a pipeline to St. John.
It will be interesting to see what happens. I was surprised in 2003 when they had the chance to buy the BAR & didn't. Instead, MMA bought it. But then, in 2010, MMA sold the old BAR line from Brownville Junction to Madawaska, roughly 223 miles of track, to the State of Maine, who in turn promptly leased it to Irving! Irving also has the Eastern Maine line too. Both lines link up with the MMA line to Lac Megantic at Brownville Junction. I think that's what is different now. if Irving took over the MMA line now, they would pretty much have control of all the rail lines in Northern, Eastern & Central Maine. Like you said in a previous post, a golden opportunity.
Hard to say. Irving is privately owned, and no one knows what their financials look like. Sure, they're big, but how well are they doing and would they be able to buy the entire line? I used to work for one of the Irving trucking outfits in New Brunswick.. they are well managed. But they presumably could have bought the entire line back in 95 or in 2003 when it again became available for purchase. However both times they decided not to, and one has to wonder what's different this time.
I would not be at all surprised to see Irving Transportation take over the line. It would be the most logical choice. They already own New Brunswick & Southern Railroad, Maine Northern Railroad and Eastern Maine Railroad. They are currently leasing the old Bangor & Aroostook line that goes through Brownville Junction. They have a huge presence here in Maine including some sizeable timber acreage holdings, fuel storage depots, a branch office in Bangor, a couple hundred service stations, over a dozen full facility truck stops & probably much more. They have been one of MMA's major customers for oil & wood products transport. Seems to me it would be something they would be interested in, as the line from Lac Megantic connects up at Brownville with the old BAR line that Irving is already leasing from the State of Maine.
CP would be lucky to get back the line. With a port on one end and Canada's second largest city (and major port) on the other, all it really needs is some marketing. Lots of small towns along the way too...and most people living in them don't grow their own food and make their own clothes.. Assuming the MM&A can't recover, this is a big opportunity for someone.
Maybe HH is maneuvering to make sure CP does not have to take back the line ??
narig01There are many cases were a single accident or incident were so catastrophic that the resulting damages in the end put a company out of business. On the grave yard are truck companies, airlines, and railroads who after a serious wreck were put out of business.Rgds IGN
Absolutely right. We small operators are always only one serious accident away from oblivion. That's why safety always trumps everything else, including profits and customer service.
overall I certainly hope that the predatory A & K Materials Co. doesn't gain possesion of MM&A and scrap it. It's been documented in trains magazine that A & K Materials has taken over short line railroads just to run off the business and pull up the rail to sell as scrap.
I certainly hope that the predatory A & K Materials Co. doesn't gain possesion of MM&A and scrap it. It's been documented in trains magazine that A & K Materials has taken over short line railroads just to run off the business and pull up the rail to sell as scrap.
I would be immensely surprised to see A & K take over the line. I don't think there's much chance of that. The line is a vital one here in Maine. Brownville Junction, in the center of the state, is a major rail line junction. The MMA goes through it, the old Bangor & Aroostook line now being used by Irving Transportation goes through it & so does the Canadian/American line from Lac Megantic in Quebec. It's vital to industries like Irving, Great Northern Paper & several other large paper & wood products industries.
Right now, Brownville Junction is, for all practical purposes, shut down & 60-70 MMA employess there laid off, because the Canadian/American rail line from Lac Megantic is still shut down. The state is eager to get that line & the junction up & running again. There is already talk around the state & on the news of "feelers" being put out to try to get someone to take over the line & get it running again, as it's looking more & more like MMA will not survive this mess. The state does NOT want to see someone take the line & rip it up.
BaltACD Which also gives them 7 days to take actions to keep the certificate from being suspended.
Which also gives them 7 days to take actions to keep the certificate from being suspended.
I don't think so. And I don't think it will be long before someone steps in to take over the line. It wouldn't surprise me if over the next month or so another carrier shows an interest in taking over. The line itself is a fine piece of civil engineering, with mostly gentle curves and grades that aren't too arduous.
Back in the old regulation days, if a railroad could not serve it's customers for some reason then an adjacent railroad could be forced to serve those customers. Could that happen in this case under Canadien Law?
AVRNUT blue streak 1 AVRNUT Just an update on the situation: This morning, August 13th, the Maine, Montreal & Atlantic was ordered to cease all operations in Canada, effective August 20th. Reason cited was inadequate insurance. Does anyone know if there is a Canadian agency that can order a directed service? Did that not occurr on several routes of the Rock Island RR ? I really don't know on that one & not really sure what you mean by "order a directed service". I do know that Canadian Railway Regulations require railroads to have what they call a "Certificate of Fitness" to operate rail lines in Canada. If that certificate is revoked or suspended, you must cease rail operations in Canada. That's what happened to MMA this morning. Their certificate was suspended effective August 20th. Carl
blue streak 1 AVRNUT Just an update on the situation: This morning, August 13th, the Maine, Montreal & Atlantic was ordered to cease all operations in Canada, effective August 20th. Reason cited was inadequate insurance. Does anyone know if there is a Canadian agency that can order a directed service? Did that not occurr on several routes of the Rock Island RR ?
AVRNUT Just an update on the situation: This morning, August 13th, the Maine, Montreal & Atlantic was ordered to cease all operations in Canada, effective August 20th. Reason cited was inadequate insurance.
Just an update on the situation: This morning, August 13th, the Maine, Montreal & Atlantic was ordered to cease all operations in Canada, effective August 20th. Reason cited was inadequate insurance.
Does anyone know if there is a Canadian agency that can order a directed service? Did that not occurr on several routes of the Rock Island RR ?
I really don't know on that one & not really sure what you mean by "order a directed service". I do know that Canadian Railway Regulations require railroads to have what they call a "Certificate of Fitness" to operate rail lines in Canada. If that certificate is revoked or suspended, you must cease rail operations in Canada. That's what happened to MMA this morning. Their certificate was suspended effective August 20th.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
One more nail in MMA's coffin. They are not going to survive this.
henry6 Read today's Trains Newswire here (8-12-13) about FRA findings with oil and gas company shippers who don't label tank cars properly and the far flung problems they are causing even if there is no derailment. Especially note that fracking chemicals...secret concoctions of the drilling departments of the oil and gas industry...which are mixed with crude oil. It shows the indifference these companies have for the land, for those they use and abuse in their processes, and for the first responders who must be there in emergencies to clean up and put themselves in danger when they don't know what they are fighting...
Read today's Trains Newswire here (8-12-13) about FRA findings with oil and gas company shippers who don't label tank cars properly and the far flung problems they are causing even if there is no derailment. Especially note that fracking chemicals...secret concoctions of the drilling departments of the oil and gas industry...which are mixed with crude oil. It shows the indifference these companies have for the land, for those they use and abuse in their processes, and for the first responders who must be there in emergencies to clean up and put themselves in danger when they don't know what they are fighting...
After fracking, the well is tested using test separators/treaters and frac tanks. The oil companies want any corrosive chemicals removed before it goes into their own stock tanks. Then before the crude purchaser buys it they test for water, as they don't want to pay for water or chemicals. I await the FRA study to see if significant fracking fluids made it into crude transport.
Henry,
I don't see that on today's newswire. Do you have a link?
Norm
Read today's Trains Newswire here (8-12-13) about FRA findings with oil and gas company shippers who don't label tank cars properly and the far flung problems they are causing even if there is no derailment. Especially note that fracking chemicals...secret concoctions of the drilling departments of the oil and gas industry...which are mixed with crude oil. It shows the indifference these companies have for the land, for those they use and abuse in their processes, and for the first responders who must be there in emergencies to clean up and put themselves in danger when they don't know what they are fighting.
As for the statement somewhere above about the purchaser of a shipment being harmed...it might be a stretch. He might be out because of lack of that particular supply item or resource but should be able to find another source quickly enough. He may have permanent loss perhaps if he pays for the resource or supply up front.
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Here is an article about the spreading liability reaching the oil shippers and refinery:
http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/a9gantic+disaster/8775349/story.html
It says the cost is expected to reach a half-billion dollars.
IGN,
That's why I think it is premature for a blanket statement about liability in this case.
- Erik
AVRNUT To my way of thinking it's the same as if a tanker truck carrying oil crashed on a highway at an underpass & exploded, destroying the underpass, several other vehicles & resulting in loss of life. Is the company that produced the oil liable & responsible? No. Regardless of wether the accident was caused by driver carelessness, mechanical malfunction on the truck or whatever, the bottom line is that the trucking company transporting the oil is ultimately responsible & liable. It's the same here with the Lac Megantic disaster. MMA contracted to transport the oil. It's their railroad. If it was human error, equipment failure, a fault in the track, the bottom line is that they are ultimately accountable for it. It's MMA's employee, MMA's equipment, MMA's track etc. When you contract to deliver a product you are agreeing to the responsibility for the safe transport of that product. Any issues that occur during that transport are equally your responsibility. Just MHO.
To my way of thinking it's the same as if a tanker truck carrying oil crashed on a highway at an underpass & exploded, destroying the underpass, several other vehicles & resulting in loss of life. Is the company that produced the oil liable & responsible? No. Regardless of wether the accident was caused by driver carelessness, mechanical malfunction on the truck or whatever, the bottom line is that the trucking company transporting the oil is ultimately responsible & liable. It's the same here with the Lac Megantic disaster. MMA contracted to transport the oil. It's their railroad. If it was human error, equipment failure, a fault in the track, the bottom line is that they are ultimately accountable for it. It's MMA's employee, MMA's equipment, MMA's track etc. When you contract to deliver a product you are agreeing to the responsibility for the safe transport of that product. Any issues that occur during that transport are equally your responsibility. Just MHO.
Your tanker truck analogy would hold a bit more water if you specified that the trailer(s) were supplied by the oil company. The tank cars involved in the incident were not the property of MMA. There's also the quetion whether the tank cars were of the proper rating for the crude oil being shipped. While all crude oils are flammable, the Bakken crude is much more flammable than the stuff that comes out of the La Brea tar pits.
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