edblysard Hey Randy, lookit…we’re Urban Legends! After all, TrainOrders and Snopes say so, and you can’t put anything on the internet that isn’t true unless Snopes says so…besides, it’s on trainorders, so it has to be a fact. Yup, we had them going there for a while….
Hey Randy, lookit…we’re Urban Legends!
After all, TrainOrders and Snopes say so, and you can’t put anything on the internet that isn’t true unless Snopes says so…besides, it’s on trainorders, so it has to be a fact.
Yup, we had them going there for a while….
So if you guys kick a car and nobody is around, does it make a sound?
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann edblysard Hey Randy, lookit…we’re Urban Legends! After all, TrainOrders and Snopes say so, and you can’t put anything on the internet that isn’t true unless Snopes says so…besides, it’s on trainorders, so it has to be a fact. Yup, we had them going there for a while…. So if you guys kick a car and nobody is around, does it make a sound?
That might be the most intelligent question/statement made here…chicken or the egg?
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zugmann So if you guys kick a car and nobody is around, does it make a sound?
Not until it runs into another car - those things can be really sneaky quiet when they're on the roll...
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Here is a link to a safety alert by the AAR:
http://www.aslrra.org/news___publications/views___news/results.cfm?articleid=4551
On the surface, it appears obvious that these booby traps are targeted at railroad employees. So it follows that employees would be excluded from the probable perpetrators. However, if all of the defensive inspections are carried out as advised by the AAR, it seems to me that the burden of these booby traps will be borne by the railroad company in terms of lost production.
The basic defense against these booby traps, according to the AAR, would be the following procedure:
Before handling any car, the following items must be inspected to make sure they have no dangerous materials or items attached to them that could cause injury to persons contacting them:
Both air hoses
Both glad hands
Both anglecocks
Both pin lifter levers
Both coupler bodies
Both knuckles
Bleed rod
Brake cutout-cock
Hand brake wheel
Hand brake release lever
Four stirrups
End platforms
All ladders and grab irons
Covered hopper roof walks
So when looking for motives, we have to consider the motive of slowing down production at the expense of the railroad company. Who would have such a motive and why?
I would opine that those booby traps may well be targetted at railroad employees in the same way that similarly booby-trapping the fifth wheel release (whatever it's called) on a semi is targetted at truckers.
Which is to say that the groups themselves aren't the target - it's the people who are the target.
Barring the aforementioned labor issues, I would suggest that the intent is to instill fear in the intended victimes - never knowing if you're going to try to perform some routine function and end up seriously injured in the process.
The perpetrators don't care - their "badge of honor" will be when the report shows up in the news (or while they watch from a safe location in the distance. Your pain is their amusement. Sick, but that's how some people are these days.
I find it hard to imagine that a railfan or even an itinerant would perpetrate such a deed, knowing full well that it will bring them under further scrutiny.
Bucyrus Here is a link to a safety alert by the AAR: http://www.aslrra.org/news___publications/views___news/results.cfm?articleid=4551 On the surface, it appears obvious that these booby traps are targeted at railroad employees. So it follows that employees would be excluded from the probable perpetrators. However, if all of the defensive inspections are carried out as advised by the AAR, it seems to me that the burden of these booby traps will be borne by the railroad company in terms of lost production. The basic defense against these booby traps, according to the AAR, would be the following procedure: Before handling any car, the following items must be inspected to make sure they have no dangerous materials or items attached to them that could cause injury to persons contacting them: Both air hoses Both glad hands Both anglecocks Both pin lifter levers Both coupler bodies Both knuckles Bleed rod Brake cutout-cock Hand brake wheel Hand brake release lever Four stirrups End platforms All ladders and grab irons Covered hopper roof walks So when looking for motives, we have to consider the motive of slowing down production at the expense of the railroad company. Who would have such a motive and why?
That's quite the list of booby traps to find by the light of a lantern. I take these traps personally. It is only by luck I seen the ones I did before I sliced my hand..
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Randy StahlThat's quite the list of booby traps to find by the light of a lantern. I take these traps personally. It is only by luck I seen the ones I did before I sliced my hand..
I would take it personally too. It would be like a type of war. It presents a really strange and difficult problem when I think about it.
Since the threat is for real, the employees have to be protected from it. There is no other choice. Safety First. I am sure that the unions would insist on the proper safety procedures for their members. The company would insist on safety protection as well. And that means a full inspection of every car every time it is handled. How can anything less be acceptable?
Cars would have to be inspected, and then remain under security during switching operations. Once released, they would have to be re-inspected before handling again. This is basically what the AAR says is required. I don’t see any other solution.
These inspections will have to be done responsibly and follow a plan with many steps, and a requirement for the inspection steps to be acknowledged as they are completed. People doing the inspection will have to take responsibility for doing the job right. They will be seeking to find small objects that have been placed with the intention that they not be easily seen.
The inspections would have a cost in time. How many man-hours would be required to inspect all of the critical surfaces of a freight car and fill out the record of inspection? What would it cost to perform this inspection on a freight car?
Investigate to find the perpetrators or group. Trying to totally protect cars from vandalism may end up allowing these terrorists (they are not just vandals because they are trying to hurt people and the terror produced disrupts normal activities) to accomplish their goal if it is to bring railroads to a grinding halt.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
The people handling the cars need to be aware of the dangers and vigilant, but It may not be necessary to do a detailed inspection of every car:
Do any specific railroad(s) or private ownership predominate among the vandalized cars?
Do any specific car types predominate?
Can the vandalism be tied to any specific area of the country? What was their origin before the vandalism was found? Are there common locations in their routing?
To find the perpetrators, consider first locations where the cars are stopped for a period of time, do not have tight security and are easily accessable.
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
From the FRA and AAR reports I see it is Disgruntled employees that want to see someone get hurt !!! It is very SAD !!!!!
carknocker1 From the FRA and AAR reports I see it is Disgruntled employees that want to see someone get hurt !!! It is very SAD !!!!!
Which in all likelihood makes it very personal, as it's all the more likely that the perpetrator knows the very people they are trying to hurt.
It also makes it that much harder to combat, as the perp knows the security weaknesses as well.
I can see the following list of categories of people who might have a motivation and opportunity to place booby traps. They are listed in order of what I assume to be most likely to least likely.
1) The segment of unauthorized freight train riders with a wide assortment of grudge motives.
2) Employees targeting the railroad company over grudges, and doing so by forcing costly inspections.
3) Employees targeting the railroad company over labor relations grievances, and doing so by forcing costly inspections.
4) Employees targeting fellow employees over grudges.
5) Shippers or receivers targeting railroad company due to issues of rates, service, or other customer relations, and doing so by forcing costly inspections.
6) Shippers or receivers targeting railroad employees over grudges.
7) Taggers.
8) General trespassers.
9) Thieves.
10) Railfans.
Of these, items #5-10 seem highly unlikely. Item #4 could be likely, but very hard to accomplish in terms of affecting the intended victim, and it also would be anonymous, so the revenge effect of the victim knowing the attacker would be missing. Items #2 and 3 are possible, but the motive seems too expansive and far reaching to fit the small mindedness of these detailed booby traps.
Item #1 is a wildcard. Most of the unauthorized train riders have personalities much like the average person. However, some of these individuals are extremely unstable, paranoid, and dangerous. Within this unstable segment, there would be a strong possibility of grudges and motives for acts of vengeance over incidents real and imagined. A significant contributing attribute of the unauthorized freight train riders is that many of them have expert knowledge of train operational details. And they all have opportunity with their close proximity to the trains.
Evildoers beware.
Because no specific descriptions of any events are cited, I can't ascribe that this is a critical mass, an epidemic or a half-vast conspirasey motivated movement to injure railroaders or destabilize the industry. It would be like believing that, Academically developed conclusions that global warming exists and is motivated by socialist pinkos that are trying to change our economy.
Those of us asking about "a more serious form of sabotage," maybe believe there's a pervasive network of saboteurs inflicting random mutilations, butcherirngs and fractures to railroaders......
Would those people check out the HSA, NTSB, FRA. AAR. news services, and BofLFE&T, and SMART(UTU, of old) and read their thermometers of complaints and documented reports, mentioning this specific issue or rating this issue?
Believing that groups of depraved human variations is justified if one thinks that, individually, they are not depraved....but maybe everyone else is....."Have you no decency"...McCarthy...50's.".
Should the operating unions been looking in a different direction...guess they were....or.....a'int no conspiracy?
I'm reluctant to speculate because anyone who does these things has to be an unusual person with unusual problems. This is a person who wants to maim other individuals for no particular reason.
It does seem reasonable to point out that a person with a grudge against a railroad company would not really injure the company by this action. The railroad company at most would experience an increase in Workers' Compensation Premiums. The person hurt, however, could well be forever maimed and loose the use of a hand or a foot or limb or even worse.
Focusing on this group of potential perpetrators that I listed at the end of the previous page: (Item #1) Unauthorized freight train riders with wide assortment of grudge motives.
One clue to finding the cause of these malicious acts is that it is almost certain that they are not the work of one person. So, whatever the reason for these acts, if more than one person is doing this, there has to be communication between them to convey the idea of committing these acts. It is highly unlikely that say ten people having no knowledge of each other would come up with the idea of this type of sabotage independently at about the same time. Therefore, these acts imply some sort of organizational communication, which in turn implies some sort of organization.
But communicating these booby trap plots within an organization increases the risk of getting caught. That suggests that the persons engaged in these acts are not worried about getting caught. One reason for not being worried about getting caught is that the acts are small and stealthy. Another reason would be that the perpetrator has little to lose by getting caught. That factor clearly points to the item #1 segment as opposed to all other segments. Fundamentally, these drifters have almost nothing, so they have nothing to lose.
In trying to identify the perpetrators of these malicious acts by considering the modus operandi, one key indicator would be whether the booby traps are attached to wayside structures such as trestle railings, signal ladders, grade crossing bungalows, and switch stands as frequently as they are attached to freight cars; or if they are mostly on freight cars.
Another key indicator of the perpetrators of these acts is that the acts have the characteristic of small minded pettiness. The acts are sinister, but small and highly focused and secretive. It is the mark of a paranoid and highly vindictive personality. I would estimate that 10% all riders in general would fit this description perfectly.
There is also a strong sense of fraternity in the group of riders in general, and that would enable communications similar to the internal, unwritten communication of a clique. These people commonly leave their brands to mark their territory to each other.
And while they move about on all features of railroad property, they particularly take ownership of the trains and freight cars. They have intimate knowledge of freight cars. This is why it would be critical to see whether the distribution of these booby traps is wayside as well as on trains, or only on trains.
Randy Stahl In the last few years there has been an increase in freight car and locomotive vandalism. Much of the vandalism is designed to injure railroad workers. Some examples include single edged razor blades taped to a bleed rod, stiff wire wrapped around a coupler designed to put out the eye of a brakeman coupling hoses, stiff wire wrapped through grab irons and ladders designed to ensnare an unsuspecting switchman, grab irons cut through 95% designed to break and make a switchman fall off a car and razor sharp steel hammered into the tops of car knuckles designed to rip open the hand of a switchman that reaches in to open a knuckle. (ad infinitum) I cannot believe that these are the actions of a untrained vandal (s)... I am beginning to believe that other professional (albeit disgruntled) railroaders are doing this. The fact that other railroaders may be responsible bothers me to no end. Randy
In the last few years there has been an increase in freight car and locomotive vandalism. Much of the vandalism is designed to injure railroad workers. Some examples include single edged razor blades taped to a bleed rod, stiff wire wrapped around a coupler designed to put out the eye of a brakeman coupling hoses, stiff wire wrapped through grab irons and ladders designed to ensnare an unsuspecting switchman, grab irons cut through 95% designed to break and make a switchman fall off a car and razor sharp steel hammered into the tops of car knuckles designed to rip open the hand of a switchman that reaches in to open a knuckle. (ad infinitum)
I cannot believe that these are the actions of a untrained vandal (s)... I am beginning to believe that other professional (albeit disgruntled) railroaders are doing this. The fact that other railroaders may be responsible bothers me to no end.
Randy
Both troubling and puzzling, as well. Possibly a sign of the the times we live in....Many individuals who lack a level of personal respect of themselves, and others. Manifest their lack of respect by acts that might injure others (Co-Workers?) or cause property damage to punish employers(?) for what ever perceived grievance the individual might have?
Destruction of Corporate Property, or by extension; causing personal harm to co-workers. If a Corporation cannot prevent it's property from being defaced by 'trespassers' . How can they be expected to prevent acts of sabotage aimed at the human workforce? Is this just a manifestation of the lack 'character' that seems to becoming mre evident in today's society?
I agree with both of you. If the culprits are mostly/totally former or current rail employees, most likely, and who are disgruntled or harboring a grudge against co-workers, it would seem to narrow the field of suspects. If workers who are interviewed would openly discuss anyone they knew who seemed angry with the railroad, these perpetrators might be caught.
Unfortunately, I doubt it's any one group that's responsible, making catching the culprits all the more difficult. A perp need not know exactly how a booby trap is rigged, only that it can be. After that, imagination kicks in. And it's very likely that two people could independently rig up almost exactly the same booby trap.
All the more reason I wear gloves when I'm working, even if we are "just" a tourist railroad.
Get back to us with a PDF of police reports and injury reports and then forward to the editors of Trains and or Railway Age. Until Randy does that I move that we lock this topic.
Here is one safety alert issued by the AAR directly quoted:
Safety Notice: AAR Issues Safety Alert on Rail Car Tampering
On May 4, the Association of American Railroads (AAR) issued the following alert to its members: “AAR has been notified by Exxon-Mobil that it recently received a hopper car at its Baton Rouge, Louisiana facility that had a razor blade strategically placed in the eye of the air brake release rod. Fortunately the site technician immediately removed the razor blade and no harm was done to anyone at that facility. As you will recognize, this type of vandalism may have been perpetrated on multiple railcars that can arrive at numerous facilities across the country. Therefore, AAR recommends that this notice be given wide spread distribution, particularly to all employees who routinely come in contact with rail cars of any type. Employees should be advised to inspect not only air brake release rods for such traps, but also safety appliances, coupler operating levers, angle cocks and any other surfaces which employees may contact. This is one of a number of similar incidents that have been discovered in recent years.”
I have no reason to doubt what members have posted here about their direct experiences with this issue. But to understand the problem, it would be helpful to know the actual extent of it. Clearly the AAR and other authorities have documentation of all of these incidents, but I do not find that information on the Internet. Is this information being made public, and if it is, how can it be accessed?
Without conveying the full problem, this safety alert has limited impact. After all, this national alert is about ONE razor blade on ONE freight car.
The AAR is correct about the possibility of this type of vandalism being perpetrated on multiple railcars across the country. However, one could make this assertion conceptually with no actual incidents having occurred. So it would be nice to know how much of this alert is being predicted and how much has actually occurred.
BucyrusBut to understand the problem, it would be helpful to know the actual extent of it. Clearly the AAR and other authorities have documentation of all of these incidents, but I do not find that information on the Internet.
You might have better luck finding instructions to build an A-Bomb.
Do we really want such information freely available on the 'Net? I think that others have already opined that we don't, and I agree. I don't want some enviro-nazi who thinks that trains in the woods are a bad thing finding out ways to hurt me or my passengers.
I hear of stuff in the fire and EMS world that isn't in general circulation. It's not classified, but we'd rather not advertise it.
Yeah...I'm in agreement with Larry...I worked for awhile in EMT way back when...there are times when it is best to be quiet....
Any argument carried far enough will end up in Semantics--Hartz's law of rhetoric Emerald. Leemer and Southern The route of the Sceptre Express Barry
I just started my blog site...more stuff to come...
http://modeltrainswithmusic.blogspot.ca/
tree68 BucyrusBut to understand the problem, it would be helpful to know the actual extent of it. Clearly the AAR and other authorities have documentation of all of these incidents, but I do not find that information on the Internet. Do we really want such information freely available on the 'Net? I think that others have already opined that we don't, and I agree.
Well they are indeed freely circulating the information on the Net and everywhere else with their safety alert bulletin detailing exactly what the booby traps consist of and where they are placed. I don’t see any hesitation to tell the world all about it.
My point about not finding information on the Net is about not finding the specific instances even though they tell us there are many. My point is that their alert is not very convincing of a widespread problem when they put out a national bulletin about finding one razor blade.
Bucyrus Here is one safety alert issued by the AAR directly quoted: Safety Notice: AAR Issues Safety Alert on Rail Car Tampering On May 4, the Association of American Railroads (AAR) issued the following alert to its members: “AAR has been notified by Exxon-Mobil that it recently received a hopper car at its Baton Rouge, Louisiana facility that had a razor blade strategically placed in the eye of the air brake release rod. Fortunately the site technician immediately removed the razor blade and no harm was done to anyone at that facility. As you will recognize, this type of vandalism may have been perpetrated on multiple railcars that can arrive at numerous facilities across the country. Therefore, AAR recommends that this notice be given wide spread distribution, particularly to all employees who routinely come in contact with rail cars of any type. Employees should be advised to inspect not only air brake release rods for such traps, but also safety appliances, coupler operating levers, angle cocks and any other surfaces which employees may contact. This is one of a number of similar incidents that have been discovered in recent years.” I have no reason to doubt what members have posted here about their direct experiences with this issue. But to understand the problem, it would be helpful to know the actual extent of it. Clearly the AAR and other authorities have documentation of all of these incidents, but I do not find that information on the Internet. Is this information being made public, and if it is, how can it be accessed? Without conveying the full problem, this safety alert has limited impact. After all, this national alert is about ONE razor blade on ONE freight car. The AAR is correct about the possibility of this type of vandalism being perpetrated on multiple railcars across the country. However, one could make this assertion conceptually with no actual incidents having occurred. So it would be nice to know how much of this alert is being predicted and how much has actually occurred.
I have seen notices and safety bulletins about more than one incident. Not everything is publicly available on the internet.
And for the troll poster wanting to lock this topic, he is more than welcome to find a new topic or site. I'm sure there's another ugly amtrak station being proposed somewhere. .
To the poster that wants this thread locked. Sorry but anytime there is an Injury that takes a Life we ALL PAY FOR IT in higher Insurance Costs. Here is something to think about with some of these things. Say there is a chunk of Steel wedged in the coupler that makes it look like the Joint is good however it is not. Break apart happens and with it a Derailment. In that Derailment is a Tank Car of Chlorine Gas the worst case possible and it Bursts you going to want to be that man if Found. Or a Tanker of Propane goes up. With what Randy is reporting something like that could HAPPEN. Sorry but I would not want to be the person that does that when caught by the Police or the Feds.
zugmann And for the troll poster wanting to lock this topic, he is more than welcome to find a new topic or site. I'm sure there's another ugly amtrak station being proposed somewhere. .
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Frankly I don't give a *** if this thread gets locked. I refuse to pander to anyone . I will not speak of the suffering and maiming of railroad men . I spoke my piece, I don't need to see the body's.
Randy Stahl Frankly I don't give a *** if this thread gets locked. I refuse to pander to anyone . I will not speak of the suffering and maiming of railroad men . I spoke my piece, I don't need to see the body's. Randy
I certainly have no objection to the thread. Although my comments a few posts back may seem like they echo the sentiment of member Bonas posted just ahead of my comments, it was not my intent to reinforce his position. I had not seen that he had posted that at the time I was posting.
I think this topic is actually highly relevant and quite interesting. It represents a very unusual problem. All I am trying to do is understand the extent of the problem and connect dots as to who is doing these acts and why.
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