I guess what you are trying to say is railroads should run like a transit system, that way elevator operators can be engineers too?
23 17 46 11
jeffhergertNot all red signals require stopping before passing them. PTC may not require stopping before passing those types of red signals either,
Absolutely! The ONLY thing PTC will do is keep a train from exceeding it's movement authority. That's all. If the engineer does not operate the train "under" the braking curve while approaching the limit of the movement authority, PTC will apply the brakes and stop the train.
-Don (Random stuff, mostly about trains - what else? http://blerfblog.blogspot.com/)
NYCT is not a Class 1 Railroad. It has it's own rules for it's own house. Those rules CANNOT be applied to Class 1 operations.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
edblysard I guess what you are trying to say is railroads should run like a transit system, that way elevator operators can be engineers too?
Post of the day award.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann edblysard I guess what you are trying to say is railroads should run like a transit system, that way elevator operators can be engineers too? Post of the day award.
Not at all. But do not disdain the experience of others. You cannot use 'our' system, and we cannot use your system, but 'we' safely transport many millions of people every day. And it *is* a railroad.
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Yes, it is a railroad. But the operating skills required of a subway motorman are considerably different than those required of a locomotive engineer handling a long heavy freight over varying terrain. Not to say one is better than the other, I have always been impressed by a skilled transit (or commuter rail) operator who can wheel into the platform, time after time, and make a perfect spot without standing everyone on their heads, but, a freight train is a whole different animal. I know we are all having automation shoved down our throats (or otherwise administered) but from personal experience, it lacks finesse. Take the human element out of railroading, and we might as well be watching a conveyor belt. I am fortunate in having had 36 years doing what I've always wanted to do. Working with a whole galaxy of characters. Some of them were masters of the craft, others never quite got it, but we were all railroaders.
Not distain, but curiosity.
You keep using the term “we” in your postings….is that the royal “we” or the specific and inclusive “we” which implies you are part of the work force that runs the NYCT?
Yes, NYCT is a railroad, but one designed specifically to move people, with totally specific rules and operating practices designed for that, and that alone.
It’s not a freight railroad by any means.
Besides the fact that they both use rails, locomotives and the word “train”, the similarities pretty much end there.
Applying transit rules to freight trains is impractical.
I would suggest you get a copy of both current volumes of the GCOR and the Norac rule books maybe even the CROR, (Canadian rule book) and read them through, several times.
Using a “trip switch” to place a freight train into a penalty brake application can cause more dangerous problems that you can imagine.
Oh, by the way, Zugman, rpfjohn, myself and a few others here move millions of tons of freight a day.
I move hundreds of cars daily full of the most dangerous chemicals known, every day for the last 16 years, and never spilled a drop.
oltmannd Yes. The Office of Information and Regulatory Affairs analyzes regulations, not laws. Regulations are generally the administration of laws - the details of how the law is implemented. This can include areas where the law is silent. e.g. the DOT likely could have mandated PTC on their own had there been no law. So, the PTC regulations flunk the cost - benefit test, but the point is moot to the Administration because the law is so specific. The point of failure here is Congress, not DOT, so Sunstien has no "mistake" to admit!
So, the PTC regulations flunk the cost - benefit test, but the point is moot to the Administration because the law is so specific. The point of failure here is Congress, not DOT, so Sunstien has no "mistake" to admit!
Keep in mind that laws and regulations where the benefits are correlated with and exceed the costs are kind of self-policing, and perhaps not really needed - enlightened, informed, and reasonable persons should follow the desired action on their own in such instances, unless there is something in the system or organization that prevents them from receiving the benefits of their costs.
In such instances of "externalities", where person A incurs the costs but person B receives the benefits, a law might be necessary to redress that imbalance to achieve the desired actions, viewing the two persons as a system or 'society' as a whole, where the sum of A's costs + B's benefits is enough greater than zero.
Another scenario is that where the person bearing the costs does not have the long-range vision or interest, or perhaps is subject to 'lowest common denominator' competitive pressures, which discourage him from adopting the desired action, unless all of his competitors are forced to do so, too. Examples in the railroad field include the Janney coupler and air brake laws, and roller bearing adoption; elsewhere, anti-pollution laws mandating proper disposal and truck safety equipment laws are examples.
Lastly are scenarios where the benefits will not likely ever exceed the costs, but the desired action is nevertheless deemed desirable by those in charge. Economically rational people would not make such choices of the basis of cost-benefit alone as it is usually measured - but there is usually some more important societal or social goal that makes the desired action seem worthwhile. PTC seems to be of this kind, based on the cited quote. Whether it is or not is a point that perhaps could be debated for a long time . . .
- Paul North.
Remember that the NTSB had been pushing fot PTC for years, being their number 1 recommendation for many years. Chatsworth was just the event that got the ear of the Congress.
oltmannd schlimm My question is this: Did they do those 'other things" In terms of train control, not much. schlimm and if not, what was preventing them from doing so prior to the passing of the PTC mandate? Nothing, and doing something - or having a plan for something - might have headed PTC off. They basically messed around with PTC-like trials, expanded cab signalling in a very few spots and that was it. But, you have to remember, capital money was, and is, tight so it would have been borderline irresponsible to spend it on something with no payback to the RR. Of course, now, they have to pay that, and a whole lot more.
schlimm My question is this: Did they do those 'other things"
In terms of train control, not much.
schlimm and if not, what was preventing them from doing so prior to the passing of the PTC mandate?
Nothing, and doing something - or having a plan for something - might have headed PTC off. They basically messed around with PTC-like trials, expanded cab signalling in a very few spots and that was it. But, you have to remember, capital money was, and is, tight so it would have been borderline irresponsible to spend it on something with no payback to the RR.
Of course, now, they have to pay that, and a whole lot more.
Bluntly, by dragging their collective feet on this, the railroads left Congress no politically acceptable choice but to act. The industry hadn't done much, and the NTSB had been pushing for PTC for years. The proof is in the performance, and the continuing string [EDIT] of several freight rail, Amtrak, commuter rail, and transit agency collisions [EDIT] a each year that supposedly could have been prevented by PTC - but hadn't been, by any method - likely convinced Congress that the industry wasn't going to do anything without a mandate. The supposedly neutral NTSB rooting for PTC in the background made it easier for Congress to do that, too.
Finally, keep in mind that although it seems to us now that the PTC costs greatly exceed the benefits, the industry is only one Toxic Inhalation Hazard (TIH) tank car or container shipment [EDIT] away from being involved in a wreck and leak that could lead to a massive disaster involving hundreds of lives and $Billions in damages, with areas left uninhabitable, etc. (Compare with the ConRail trestle collapse and leaks in Paulsboro, NJ, a few months ago, or a Graniteville occurring in a dense urban area, such as at a rail junction in downtown Atlanta.) Against that possibility, a cost-benefit criteria seems an insufficient basis on which to formulate public policy and laws that affect public safety; is the TSA preventing more terrorist airplane hijackings cost-effective ?
Remember that he NTSB had pushed for PTC for years. Chatsworth simply was the event that got their recommendation into the ear of congress. Of course, they never actually have to pay for their recommendations, leaving that bag in the hands of others.
edblysardYou keep using the term “we” in your postings….is that the royal “we” or the specific and inclusive “we” which implies you are part of the work force that runs the NYCT?
LIONS use the royal "we". Him never owned or worked on the railroad. But the LION takes a proprietorial stance on his beloved NYCT. Him has built an HO scale subway system, him calls it "The Route of the Broadway LION". It is the largest subway layout in the state of North Dakota. (Probably the largest NYCT layout west of the Mississippi.)
LION has many friends there, and a collection of roll signs, brake handles, cutting keys and even a complete set of keys for the current fleet of equipment. Him has built a full size representation of a GRS Model-5 interlocking machine to run his railroad. Him is currently working on the signal system. Has a few bugs to chase away yet. Trains are automatic. LION controls the railroad from the tower.
It keeps the LION amused.
ROAR
edblysardI would suggest you get a copy of both current volumes of the GCOR and the Norac rule books maybe even the CROR, (Canadian rule book) and read them through, several times.
LION has GCOR, leastwise an older copy thereof. LION leave train handling to you. Him stand by wayside with camera in hand. LION hears that NORAC is going away. Neither LIRR nor MNCR use that rule book. NJT is stuck with it since they run on AMTK owned track, even LIRR must use it west of Harold tower.
LION gets some of his information from retired BNSF conductor, him says he sees where management is trying to automate the mane line. Railroad has given demonstration of GPS ability to blow horn at each intersection. Him says they are mapping out the control applications used on the trains so they can be programed into system to run trains. Sometimes LION thinks him full of hot beans, that is eating the cool aide put out by the railroad in attempt to leverage bargains with union. LION knows not, but will see what he sees when he sees it.
BUT LION sees distributed power. LION knows that distributed power makes train handling easier. If LION can automate toy subway train, smarter people can automate other trains, or so the LION expects. Maybe LION is all wet and should go back to zoo for tasty wildebeest, but LION will also give opinions here. May be strong opinions, LIONS can be that way, LIONS can give bad ideas (bad LION), but even bad ideas make good discussions, and from bad ideas LIONS can discover new ideas to play with.
Gotta keep open mind. Sometimes the wind blows right on through. But a closed mind is a dead mind, and LION does not want that.
BroadwayLion edblysardI would suggest you get a copy of both current volumes of the GCOR and the Norac rule books maybe even the CROR, (Canadian rule book) and read them through, several times. LION has GCOR, leastwise an older copy thereof. LION leave train handling to you. Him stand by wayside with camera in hand. LION hears that NORAC is going away. Neither LIRR nor MNCR use that rule book. NJT is stuck with it since they run on AMTK owned track, even LIRR must use it west of Harold tower. LION gets some of his information from retired BNSF conductor, him says he sees where management is trying to automate the mane line. Railroad has given demonstration of GPS ability to blow horn at each intersection. Him says they are mapping out the control applications used on the trains so they can be programed into system to run trains. Sometimes LION thinks him full of hot beans, that is eating the cool aide put out by the railroad in attempt to leverage bargains with union. LION knows not, but will see what he sees when he sees it. BUT LION sees distributed power. LION knows that distributed power makes train handling easier. If LION can automate toy subway train, smarter people can automate other trains, or so the LION expects. Maybe LION is all wet and should go back to zoo for tasty wildebeest, but LION will also give opinions here. May be strong opinions, LIONS can be that way, LIONS can give bad ideas (bad LION), but even bad ideas make good discussions, and from bad ideas LIONS can discover new ideas to play with. Gotta keep open mind. Sometimes the wind blows right on through. But a closed mind is a dead mind, and LION does not want that. ROAR
Can the Lion fix a burst air hose and a couple of broken knuckle caused by it 1 mile from the middle of nowhere at O Dark Thiry - with the ambiant at -30 and 30 MPH wind added in - with a crewless train.
BaltACDCan the Lion fix a burst air hose and a couple of broken knuckle caused by it 1 mile from the middle of nowhere at O Dark Thiry - with the ambiant at -30 and 30 MPH wind added in - with a crewless train.
LION cannot do this. Sometimes it is not safe for you to do that out here either. You got a mile long train in the middle of the night, with 12-18" of snow swirling around the tracks and temps down in the -20s. Yo are going to walk through the drifts looking for the problem, then have to walk back to the locomotive to get a 100# coupler and carry that back to the place where you need it.
NOT SAFE TO DO THAT!
Yup. that is hard work, and sometimes YOU should not be out there either.
BroadwayLion LION cannot do this. Sometimes it is not safe for you to do that out here either. You got a mile long train in the middle of the night, with 12-18" of snow swirling around the tracks and temps down in the -20s. Yo are going to walk through the drifts looking for the problem, then have to walk back to the locomotive to get a 100# coupler and carry that back to the place where you need it. NOT SAFE TO DO THAT! Yup. that is hard work, and sometimes YOU should not be out there either. ROAR
A train that is not moving is a virtual derailment - the line is blocked and nothing else will move until the stopped train moves. Railroaders get trains moving, while lions stay home in bed.
BroadwayLionLION gets some of his information from retired BNSF conductor, him says he sees where management is trying to automate the mane line. Railroad has given demonstration of GPS ability to blow horn at each intersection. Him says they are mapping out the control applications used on the trains so they can be programed into system to run trains. ROAR
LION,
You should ask your conductor friend how the BNSF will replace knuckles and air hoses without any crew on the train. That seems to be an insurmoutable problem.
BucyrusYou should ask your conductor friend how the BNSF will replace knuckles and air hoses without any crew on the train. That seems to be an insurmoutable problem.
LION knows not the answer. He (conductor-friend) was presuming that they would just send a "brakeman" or something with the train. Just to mind things and not to operate it. He thought they were trying to break the union (some people can be so paranoid) LION knows not the answers, but you can bet that they (whoever "they" are) looking at these things. They do not need pilots on aircraft any more, but they still use them on airliners.
BroadwayLionThey do not need pilots on aircraft any more, but they still use them on airliners.
Then why do they operate the planes on take-offs and landings? Union rules? Why does the military bother with pilots on their aircraft (except the drones)? For fun? Union rules?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
BroadwayLion BaltACDCan the Lion fix a burst air hose and a couple of broken knuckle caused by it 1 mile from the middle of nowhere at O Dark Thiry - with the ambiant at -30 and 30 MPH wind added in - with a crewless train. LION cannot do this. Sometimes it is not safe for you to do that out here either. You got a mile long train in the middle of the night, with 12-18" of snow swirling around the tracks and temps down in the -20s. Yo are going to walk through the drifts looking for the problem, then have to walk back to the locomotive to get a 100# coupler and carry that back to the place where you need it. NOT SAFE TO DO THAT! Yup. that is hard work, and sometimes YOU should not be out there either. ROAR
So then what do we do? Let the train sit out there by itself in 3 pieces until the weather warms up?
Just build a new track around it?
As the saying goes: What comes next?
Zugmann loves how all these experts assume road trains just go from A to B with no work in between. Oh yeah, and when you reach "B", the work is done. No yarding the train or anything.
zugmann BaltACDCan the Lion fix a burst air hose and a couple of broken knuckle caused by it 1 mile from the middle of nowhere at O Dark Thiry - with the ambiant at -30 and 30 MPH wind added in - with a crewless train. As the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
zugmann So then what do we do? Let the train sit out there by itself in 3 pieces until the weather warms up? Just build a new track around it? As the saying goes: What comes next? Zugmann loves how all these experts assume road trains just go from A to B with no work in between. Oh yeah, and when you reach "B", the work is done. No yarding the train or anything.
Seriously What else do you expect from someone who thinks his little subway model is real, talks in the imperial we and 3rd person and pretends he is a lion?
schlimm Seriously What else do you expect from someone who thinks his little subway model is real, talks in the imperial we and 3rd person and pretends he is a lion?
Zugmann doesn't know.
Bucyrus As the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
Which might work - IF, so many miles of track were not accessable - except by rail!
BaltACD BucyrusAs the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors. Which might work - IF, so many miles of track were not accessable - except by rail!
BucyrusAs the saying goes: What comes next? They will probably have to hire the services of some independent, roving, knuckle and hose contractors.
The knuckle & hose contractors will have trucks that carry special rubber track vehicles that can run alongside the track at a brisk speed, starting from the nearest crossing.
They'll probably hire PTI vans, which will wander off into the darkness and find a place for the minimum wage driver to hide and sleep.
Bucyrus The knuckle & hose contractors will have trucks that carry special rubber track vehicles that can run alongside the track at a brisk speed, starting from the nearest crossing.
Screw that. Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
zugmann Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
Isn't there a Canadian line that's already doing that? One man crew, only way to bring in help is by air.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
zugmann Bucyrus The knuckle & hose contractors will have trucks that carry special rubber track vehicles that can run alongside the track at a brisk speed, starting from the nearest crossing. Screw that. Give them helicopters. Or jet packs.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Ohhh, jet packs, yeah!
Ever since the first “Lost in Space” season aired way back in the day, I have always wanted one…I know they are useless, don’t fly far or long, but still….yeah!
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.