For a good laugh at ABC News' expense:
Baltimore Train Derailment Video: Sudden Explosion Strikes Following Derailment
Check out the bit about 50 seconds into the report with their video animation recreating the collision, which is especially funny given the actual surveillance video of the collision (linked earlier in this thread), not to mention the proportion of the trash truck relative to the railcars.
I have railfanned at this very spot many times. The crossing is governed by cross-bucks. Although a google earth image shows a hard turn into the crossing, it's not all that at grade level. If the trucker stops and looks, there is no accident.
Local media did a fairly good job, imho. It's when they cut right to the Connecticut passenger side-swiping a week ago, afterwords, that I roll my eyes.
Too many people (both civilian and professional) were too close to the scene, also imho.
Yes he should have yielded to the train, and the the approach of the train would have required stopping in order to yield. But does that crossing require a routine stop whether a train is approaching or not?
If it is only crossbucks, I would think that the legal requirement would be to yield, but not a routine stop whether or not a train is coming.
A crossbucks indicates a railroad grade crossing without warning signals. It is up to the motor vehicle driver to determine whether or not is is safe to cross...to stop, look, and listen, before crossing. But since we don't teach reading and reading comprehension in our schools, it simply means somebody put this post and sign up for a day's pay.
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But "stop, look, and listen" is just a slogan, not the actual legal requirement. The requirement is to yield. Crossbucks are equivalent to a yield sign. Yielding only requires looking for trains and making sure none are coming. If a train is coming, yield requires giving way, which usually requires stopping.
If no train is coming, there is no requirement to stop.
There are several levels of warning and protection at grade crossings. They go from simply marking the existence of private crossings, to crossbucks, to flashing lights and bells, to gates.
Drivers naturally gage the danger by the degree of warning system. A simple crossbuck on a driveway-like road in an industrial area is often seen on industrial spurs, and many of those crossings are flagged with very slow movement. Another critical element of any crossing other than the slow industrial crossings is the removal of vegetation in the approaches, so drivers can see down the track on approach.
Ultimately, it is the driver’s responsibility to yield to trains, so the industry and traffic authorities could simply mark the existence of crossings and let the drivers beware. But they go way beyond that because they know drivers make mistakes.
Therefore regardless of the driver being at fault in this case, one might wonder if the railroad could have done more to draw attention to the fact that the crossing posed a great danger in terms of train speed and restricted visibility.
It might be comforting to know that the railroad was not at fault, and the driver got what he deserved. But the train crew is also in on the deal, and I can’t imagine that they would too keen on the risks of ramming a big truck at 50 mph if there was a reasonable way to help prevent that.
We had some discussion on the vegetation around this crossing. It probably was on the CSX ROW, and my friend "Selkirk" from the SubChat forum (who lives almost inside of the CSX Selkirk yards) reports that CSX *likes* its weeds and vegetation and will do nothing to control them.
1st qoute from him:"One problem though given CSX. The vegetation that exists on the ROW belongs to CSX. They're very fastidious about "trespassing" even to do them the favor of clearing brush. We had a similar incident to that on a town road here last year. When the town went to start snipping away CSX's weeds, they called the cops and made the town stop cutting the weeds because they were trespassing. End result, four dead in a car. :( "
2nd Quote from a different poster:"I don't know who trims that vegetation, but I do know this: Maybe 5 or 6 years ago, I was riding around coastal Georgia with my cousin, who had been hired by CSX to the signals department maybe a year earlier. We were driving across a railroad crossing, and I asked if it was CSX. His immediate reaction: "Nope, Norfolk-Southern. If it was CSX, the trees wouldn't be trimmed back." "
With an attitude like this, maybe it is all CSX' fault.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Brosdway : i will have to changle you on the vegetation removal. Here on the Lineville sub and A&WP sub CSX has been on a vegetation cut back for the last 2 years. My visibility has become much beter at many crossings. Wonder if vegetation clearance is determined by a division superintendent level ? maybe has to do with total local maintenance budgets ?
This is good. LION only report what CSX bashers in NYC have to say on the subject.
Bucyrus There are several levels of warning and protection at grade crossings. They go from simply marking the existence of private crossings, to crossbucks, to flashing lights and bells, to gates. Drivers naturally gage the danger by the degree of warning system. A simple crossbuck on a driveway-like road in an industrial area is often seen on industrial spurs, and many of those crossings are flagged with very slow movement. Another critical element of any crossing other than the slow industrial crossings is the removal of vegetation in the approaches, so drivers can see down the track on approach. Ultimately, it is the driver’s responsibility to yield to trains, so the industry and traffic authorities could simply mark the existence of crossings and let the drivers beware. But they go way beyond that because they know drivers make mistakes. Therefore regardless of the driver being at fault in this case, one might wonder if the railroad could have done more to draw attention to the fact that the crossing posed a great danger in terms of train speed and restricted visibility.
It's a private crossing (from what I read on here). What more do you want them to do? I'd be all for ELIMINATING most private crossings, but then people would have a fit about that...
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannIt's a private crossing (from what I read on here). What more do you want them to do?
I don't know if it is a private crossing or what the visibility is. But from the video, it looks like a wall of trees along the track with the truck coming out of a notch in the wall of trees. If that is the case, they could cut back the trees to increase the visibility, add red stop signs, and add advance "Look For Trains" signs. I think those measures would pay.
Bucyrus zugmannIt's a private crossing (from what I read on here). What more do you want them to do? I don't know if it is a private crossing or what the visibility is. But from the video, it looks like a wall of trees along the track with the truck coming out of a notch in the wall of trees. If that is the case, they could cut back the trees to increase the visibility, add red stop signs, and add advance "Look For Trains" signs. I think those measures would pay.
More signs.
How many is enough?
I think 64.
I don't care what CSX does about the crossing. But I assume they would prefer not to have crashes and derailments.
Bucyrus I don't care what CSX does about the crossing. But I assume they would prefer not to have crashes and derailments.
I'm sure in some dimension that logic makes sense. And I'm sure in that same dimension there's a version of me that didn't regret he asked the question.
zugmann Bucyrus I don't care what CSX does about the crossing. But I assume they would prefer not to have crashes and derailments. I'm sure in some dimension that logic makes sense. And I'm sure in that same dimension there's a version of me that didn't regret he asked the question.
I'll bet it would make a lot of sense to the crew of that train.
Bucyrus zugmann Bucyrus I don't care what CSX does about the crossing. But I assume they would prefer not to have crashes and derailments. I'm sure in some dimension that logic makes sense. And I'm sure in that same dimension there's a version of me that didn't regret he asked the question. I'll bet it would make a lot of sense to the crew of that train.
Yeah, what would I know about what train crews think.
At least one state ( ohio ? ) has a vertical reflective cross gate type structrure mounted on the cross bucks. Mounted at 45 degree angle or 1/2 whatever angle a road crosses a RR.. Blinking ditch lights should get the attention of most drivers ( but not all locos have blinkers ) but no structure can prevent driver stupidity.. The reflection angles can be wide enough so that reflections should not be missed.
It’s a private road, leading to a private business, over a private crossing.
What gives CSX the legal right to trespass on this man’s road and post signs on his property?
Oh, wait…Big brother has the right to do so, just after they inspect your refrigerator to make sure you’re not eating junk food to make you obese, and install camera in your living room to make sure you’re watching the “correct” programs on the state run TV, right after they install the sensors under your skin to monitor your wakefulness.
23 17 46 11
edblysard It’s a private road, leading to a private business, over a private crossing. What gives CSX the legal right to trespass on this man’s road and post signs on his property? Oh, wait…Big brother has the right to do so, ...
Oh, wait…Big brother has the right to do so, ...
I don’t think anybody would have to trespass. CSX must own the land under the crossing and considerable distance on each side. I assume that CSX has the right to stipulate how the crossing is marked. But, beyond that, the company served by the private crossing and the CSX must have come to some agreement just to create the crossing. So I am sure they could agree on improving its protection. But I have not seen the crossings, so I can’t conclude that protection is lacking.
Big brother is another problem. I see no solution for that one. I have heard of a concept where so much will be known about everyone that it will be possible to predict what they will do each day. It is hoped that crime can be eliminated because a person's intent to commit a crime will be known in advance. So they can be arrested before committing the crime instead of afterward.
Bucyrus Big brother is another problem. I see no solution for that one. I have heard of a concept where so much will be known about everyone that it will be possible to predict what they will do each day. It is hoped that crime can be eliminated because a person's intent to commit a crime will be known in advance. So they can be arrested before committing the crime instead of afterward.
That was a movie.
George Orwell's 1984 IIRC.
Norm
Norm48327 George Orwell's 1984 IIRC.
I was thinking Minority Report.
Wasn't 1984 was more about editing the past to support the present? It's been ages since I've read it.
zugmann Norm48327 George Orwell's 1984 IIRC. I was thinking Minority Report. Wasn't 1984 was more about editing the past to support the present? It's been ages since I've read it.
In part, yes. It was also about tyranny. Wikipaedia has a decent article on it.
While I may be mistaken, the truck driver was the owner of the business and the truck, yes?
And assuming CSX owns anything more than a few feet of easement might be a mistake, down here, the Navigation District, the part of the Port Authority that leases the ROW for the PTRA, often has the boundaries or edge of our ROW marked inside the refineries our main lines runs through, and it is often less than ten feet beyond the width of a railcar.
Add to that the fact that here, state law allows the owner of a private crossing to not have any signage at all, and you can see the issue.
Case in point, Thursday morning, a grain truck decided to see if he could sneak past one of our grain trains shoving Cargill, (the very plant he was headed to) and timed it all wrong, note the only signage is cross bucks, and we put those up, not Cargill.
http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/local&id=9120879
Ed,
Being double track I'm thinking the ROW would be a minimum of 50 ft wide. Google Earth does show the trees somewhat pared back at the crossing but one must stop to be able to see an approaching train. We have some private crossings in Michigan with STOP signs.
With the truck driver clearly at fault and surely without enough insurance to cover the damages, I don't think he'll be in business much longer.
The driver clearly is at fault. But on a positive note the number of collisions at crossings is way down. The numbers are encouraging, and suggest we're heading in the right direction.
http://oli.org/about-us/news/collisions-casulties
I see the location of Rosedale, MD on ACME MAPPER. I see the tracks and several grade crossings, but I can’t find any reference in the news to the name of the road. I see one road without a name that looks like it could be at the location shown in the video. It looks like the visibility would be quite limited by trees when approaching from the southeast.
In one link to the story, it says this:
“There is dense foliage on either side of the crossing, which is marked with signs but no flashing lights or moving barriers. Sumwalt said investigators would be looking into whether there were any obstructions that limited visibility for drivers using the crossing.”
That is from this link: http://www.stamfordadvocate.com/news/us/article/Feds-investigate-Md-train-derailment-explosion-4555869.php
Doubt you will find any name to go with the ”road” as it is a privately owned road…the crossing is not sanctioned by CSX, the land owner simply constructed it himself to have convenient access to his property.
CSX could remove the material, but the land owner would simply replace it or create another crossing.
We have crossings and roads like that all over the place down here, guys want easy access to a deer lease or a lake, they dump a load of dirt on the tracks and smooth it over, even seen a few built with removed ties pulled from a junk pile.
If this is the case, and I suspect it is judging from the video, then CSX has no legal obligation to place any signage, or even acknowledge it exists.
Without knowledge of the state laws there, odds are CSX has no option as to what grade crossing protection is installed anyway; down here TDot chooses the type of protection, the design of the crossing, all the signage too.
If anyone has a obligation, it is the entity responsible for design and installation, which often is not the railroad, they simply get stuck with the maintenance and lawsuit that follow.
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