Zugmann regularly gets to help switch around 60-80 inbounds at his current job. Zugmann doesn't think a GPS or microchip is going to replace that anytime soon.
And zugmann thinks that the Lion is pretty funny when he says running an elevator is only marginally more difficult than running a train. Zugmann wonders if the Lion ran either.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Murphy Siding Bucyrus"But technologically, it won't be hard to fix. I'll bet you that we actually hear about this breakthrough development within a year. It will be like a dead man control, but it will be far more sophisticated. It will be able to detect whether a person is sleeping, fatigued, exhausted, or tired. It is really not far fetched at all. I'll have to think of a good name for it. "The quote from the first post is written like there was an expectation that technology would provide a breakthrough development within a year- as in a *fix* for the problem. What you have referenced in the link to the night-cap thingy is simply a high tech way to know when there is a problem, but not a way to fix the problem.
Bucyrus"But technologically, it won't be hard to fix. I'll bet you that we actually hear about this breakthrough development within a year. It will be like a dead man control, but it will be far more sophisticated. It will be able to detect whether a person is sleeping, fatigued, exhausted, or tired. It is really not far fetched at all. I'll have to think of a good name for it. "
When you say it does not solve the problem, it indicates that you do not understand the problem. Although perhaps it is fair to say there is more than one problem.
The “problem” I am referring to is not that an employee falls asleep, although that is a problem. But the larger PROBLEM that I am referring to is the problem for the company to find out which employees engaged in dangerous work have shiftwork sleep disorder so they can take them out of service.
The industry must accomplish this task in view of the latest implications of nightshift sleep disorder. This is because, under the terms of this syndrome, the company is directly responsible for an employee causing a wreck due to falling asleep. This combination of the syndrome and the shift in liability is relatively new. This is not the old problem of being tired at night because of not getting enough sleep during the daytime.
The SmartCap can also serve as a wakeup alarm far more effectively than the deadman pedal or the current alter systems. But, as I say, the larger task will be to record how fatigued an employee is, and every instance of falling asleep. Therefore, more than anything else, the SmartCap is a measuring tool that will be essential in solving the number one problem of discovering who is afflicted by nightshift sleep disorder.
BucyrusBut, as I say, the larger task will be to record how fatigued an employee is, and every instance of falling asleep. Therefore, more than anything else, the SmartCap is a measuring tool that will be essential in solving the number one problem of discovering who is afflicted by nightshift sleep disorder.
Perhaps a better way to put this would be 'sensitive' rather than 'afflicted'. You might want to start a new thread directly focused on this point, because it is radically different from the in-cab monitoring I thought we were discussing.
A recent point I made is that railroads may use any 'recognition' of a 'night-shift sleep disorder' to disqualify people from engine service, especially if an 'excuse' is needed for some reason. I don't like even the idea of that. Some requirement for 'reasonable accommodation' for this kind of condition needs to be in collective bargaining or whatever before "NSSD" winds up in ICD-10 (and of course NOT in CPT) and becomes a pretext for 'reasonable business-related termination' or some similar thing instead.
Be interesting to see if the research done by USAF and SAC into effective sleep (which produced the 'power nap' system and the diagnostics behind implementing it correctly for individual crew members) would be applicable to help people susceptible to biorhythm upset.
RME
I keep hearing "shift work." Outside of those with assigned yard, local freight, and some assigned thru jobs most rail freight TE&Y don't work set shifts. Shift work makes it sound like someone working regular defined hours, maybe even with some rotating shifts. Even then, most "normal" jobs that rotate between different defined shift start times usually have some predictability. That is a luxury most extra board and pool employees don't have.
While I don't doubt there are sleep disorders that cause problems for those that have normal (go to bed at the same time every day/night) sleep routines, I sometimes think it is being used as a scapegoat. Something to blame while overlooking the way transportation workers are "scheduled" to work because some of the proposals to mitigate that part of the problem is going to cost someone (railroad or worker) money. Much easier to say the employee has a problem than to say the railroad can't give a realistic train line-up so the employee has a good idea (pool boards usually, but not always, have a better idea at the Home terminal. AFHT all bets are off.) of when they will be going to work. The employee can't get proper rest because of a disorder, not because his/her schedule requires them to sleep at times when you aren't tired because you had an easy day/trip. (To me nothing is worse than getting a good night's sleep then working a morning deadhead or quick easy 4 or 5 hour trip, tie up and see you are going to go out right on your rest. One of the few times the line up can be believed. If you're really lucky, that trip home will be on a 12 hour POS junk train. You try going to bed when you aren't tired to prepare for a late night/early morning trip. My cats can sleep at the drop of a hat, but I can't. Laying in bed, about the time you are getting tired enough to sleep, the phone rings.)
Who knows, maybe all of this will eventually be the big reason used to automate most over the road operations. The railroads will say they can't find any human beings who can perform like a robot 100% of the time. Those in government regulatory positions, especially those that think 100% of risk must be eliminated from life, will agree and push for complete automation, too.
Something sort of related to this topic. A retired condr forwarded a news item to me that the KCS is going to start equipping their locomotives with inward facing cameras. It sounds like two in each cab. One directed towards the controls, the others with a view of the crew compartment. The BLET and UTU are fighting this and the KCS said they won't turn the cameras on until some legal action (sounded like it was initiated by KCS to head off the unions) is decided.
Jeff
zugmannAnd zugmann thinks that the Lion is pretty funny when he says running an elevator is only marginally more difficult than running a train. Zugmann wonders if the Lion ran either.
Yes and yes. LION was building supt in a midtown office building that had a manual elevator that him had to run during lunch hour of regular elevator operator.
LION also operate R-4 subway are 1 mile at transit museum albeit with a motor instructor at elbow.
Of course LION knows that there is still yard work, local switching, way freights and hundreds of other applications around the railroad that require skilled locomotive engineers. The JOB is NOT going to go away, but these big oil and coal drags that run out here do not really need any crewmen on them.
The cab on road power should be like the bridge of a ship, with all of the modern navigation equipment that shows clearly the state of the whole railroad in front of the train. Instead of discovering a red homeball when you get to it, you should KNOW that so and such a train is entering the railroad at so and such a point.
GET ON THE BALL AND DESIGN A BETTER LOCOMOTIVE or somebody else will do it for you, and you might not like what they come up with!
RAOR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Zugmann just rolls his eyes.
Zugmann is sorry zugmann asked. Maybe zugmann will have to work as a monk.
Overmod "Inform" me of what? I worked for six years on developing non-intrusive SIDS monitors and can tell you far more than Wikipedia about the causes of central sleep apnea (which from the language in your reply are probably unknown to you in technical detail). The fact remains that sleep apnea can only be (meaningfully) detected or treated at home,
"Inform" me of what? I worked for six years on developing non-intrusive SIDS monitors and can tell you far more than Wikipedia about the causes of central sleep apnea (which from the language in your reply are probably unknown to you in technical detail).
The fact remains that sleep apnea can only be (meaningfully) detected or treated at home,
Sorry. I was simply informing you, using nonclinical language when possible, of the fact that there are two causes of sleep apnea, which also have different treatments. You mentioned only one of five sub-types of central, which overall is less common (5% of cases) and then you went on to discuss narcoplepsy, a very rare condition. Sleep apnea is clinically diagnosed with symptom reports, and depending on whether obstructive or central, a cardiology or neurological workup, and/or sleep studies (generally not performed at home).
You stated: "a condition that makes you wake up from sleep because of a triggering of the carbon-dioxide breathing reflex is going to keep you awake, albeit perhaps crotchety. The 'sleep' that triggers the apnea is the issue." this statement suggests you do not understand what the condition involves, regardless of your work experience with SIDS, a very different disorder. Sleep apnea is an interference with breathing and sleep that leaves the person tired, sleepy, inattentive, certainly not kept awake, during their normal waking hours. Sleep apnea is not what the cap is designed to monitor. The cap is designed to be triggered if the person is going into a state of consciousness with diminished beta-wave activity where he/she would possibly fall into a sleep stage and be inattentive to outside stimuli, regardless of the cause: sleep apnea, narcolepsy, or simple lack of sleep
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
John WR Murphy Siding Knowing who has the problem isn't the fix to the problem. But knowing who has the problem makes fixing the problem possible.
Murphy Siding Knowing who has the problem isn't the fix to the problem.
But knowing who has the problem makes fixing the problem possible.
bucyrusBut technologically, it won't be hard to fix. I'll bet you that we actually hear about this breakthrough development within a year.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
Murphy Siding John WR Murphy Siding Knowing who has the problem isn't the fix to the problem. But knowing who has the problem makes fixing the problem possible. Yes it would, but developing the technology to know who has the problem is not the same thing as a technological breakthrough (within a year) to fix the problem as bucyrus has proposed.
That is only true if you insist on changing the meaning of what I proposed by playing word games. Read my post second from the top. I can only explain it, but if you don't read the explanation, there is nothing I can do.
From the second post above:
"...the larger PROBLEM that I am referring to is the problem for the company to find out which employees engaged in dangerous work have shiftwork sleep disorder so they can take them out of service."
Maybe you should read up on SWSD so you can understand what is at stake here. My prediction last year never said anything about eliminating shift work sleep disorder by a technological means or by any means.
Yeah, just pull all the extra list employees out of service. That'll work.
An honest question Bucyrus - were you ever a trainmaster?
It is so amazing that all those that are not in the industry have all the answers - without knowing the questions.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Overmod "NSSD" winds up in ICD-10 (and of course NOT in CPT) and becomes a pretext for 'reasonable business-related termination' or some similar thing instead.
1. It is in the current ICD-10-CM already, listed as " G47.26 Circadian rhythm sleep disorder, shift work type" It was even in the older (1993) ICD-10 as "F51.2, Nonorganic disorder of the sleep-wake cycle."
2. Why would anyone think it would end up in the CPT (current procedural terminology) which is what all providers are required to use to code whatever lab tests, diagnostic procedures, surgical procedures, office visits, etc. are done in conjunction with a ICD-10-CM or DSM-IV-TR (for psychiatry and psychology) diagnostic code fro insurance.
schlimm 1. It is in the current ICD-10-CM already, listed as " G47.26 Circadian rhythm sleep disorder, shift work type" It was even in the older (1993) ICD-10 as "F51.2, Nonorganic disorder of the sleep-wake cycle."
Yes -- I meant the ICD-10 adoption in the United States, which I don't think has quite happened yet (for clinical coding). There is no real point in mentioning an older (1993) ICD-10 in the United States. Here (which is the principal location we're talking about for this particular subject) it does not matter what was in the earlier version, because it was not adopted here, even for mortality, until the late '90s. We've adopted the clinical coding revision very late here, largely due to ICD-9 being mandated for things like Government programs.
2. Why would anyone think it would end up in the CPT...
Precisely why I said NOT in capital letters. There was almost sure to be some wiseacre thinking the billing codes would be used as diagnostic codes. I wanted to nip that tendency in the bud. Glad you concur.
BaltACDIt is so amazing that all those that are not in the industry have all the answers - without knowing the questions.
As one who is not and never has been in the industry, Balt, I tried to learn about the problem. I went back to the original entry with the link provided and I think the second post talked about a CPAP machine. That is what I saw on the post when I read it. And I took it at face value. A CPAP machine is ordinarily used for sleep apnea.
I do appreciate that there are other sleep disorders and certainly shift work can lead to them.
Now as I say I have never worked for a railroad. But I am an old fashioned guy; when I have a medical problem I go to my doctor. And I will bet you dollars to doughnuts doctors treat people who work for railroads too.
John
I would opine that while sleep apnea is indeed a sleep disorder, it's not really a consideration in this discussion. Sleep apnea cuts across the general population, and unless there is something about the railroad occupation that contributes to the disorder (say, obesity, a known factor), it's not really the issue.
The problem that affects most railroaders has to do with irregular schedules - more in line with "conventional" shift workers.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Bucyrus Murphy Siding John WR Murphy Siding Knowing who has the problem isn't the fix to the problem. But knowing who has the problem makes fixing the problem possible. Yes it would, but developing the technology to know who has the problem is not the same thing as a technological breakthrough (within a year) to fix the problem as bucyrus has proposed. That is only true if you insist on changing the meaning of what I proposed by playing word games. Read my post second from the top. I can only explain it, but if you don't read the explanation, there is nothing I can do. From the second post above: "...the larger PROBLEM that I am referring to is the problem for the company to find out which employees engaged in dangerous work have shiftwork sleep disorder so they can take them out of service." Maybe you should read up on SWSD so you can understand what is at stake here. My prediction last year never said anything about eliminating shift work sleep disorder by a technological means or by any means.
Murphy SidingWell, I guess, if we can agree that t the problem we're *fixing* has now drifted from *fixing* the problem, to simply being able to determine who is prone to have the problem, well then, yes- the problem has been solved. It kind of reminds me of the phase "that depends on what the definition of *is* is".
A company has a problem of an employee who comes to work drunk every day. They fire the employee, but he still gets drunk every day. Did the employer fix their problem? Yes. Did they fix the fired employee’s problem? No.
The problem I am talking about is clearly stated in the context of my prediction from a year ago. Nothing has drifted, as you say. It is indeed the problem of finding out who has SWSD and who does not. That is the railroad industry’s problem, and that is the problem I predicted would be solved by a technological device. I mentioned that once an employee is found to have SWSD, he or she can be either treated successfully or reassigned to non-hazardous duty. It is 100% clear what I was talking about a year ago if you look at a couple posts that go beyond simply using the word, “problem.”
Unlike the guy who shows up drunk every day, there is no way to eliminate people having SWSD because it shows no outward signs. The diagnosis is somewhat subjective and complex. The SmartCap replaces that complex diagnosis with a technological monitoring of drowsiness that can directly and objectively lead to a diagnosis.
Of course, it is not going to cure SWSD. I never said it would. I never once mentioned any method of curing SWSD or made any prediction about it. Both diagnosis and cure are problems. I was talking about the problem of diagnosis.
But you keep insisting that diagnosis is not a problem, and that the only problem is the cure. And because you believe that the only problem is finding the cure, you are forced to believe that when I predicted a solution to the problem, I had to be referring to curing SWSD.
Here is the final NTSB report on the BNSF Iowa crash. At the time I started last year’s first sleep disorder thread, the NTSB had only released their preliminary report. The preliminary report said that sleep disorders were part of the cause. This full report discusses that point in the conclusions.
They apparently conclude that both the engineer and conductor of the coal train had sleep disorders because they worked irregular hours. Maybe I am missing something, but that conclusion seems like an incredible reach. Not everybody who works irregular hours suffers from sleep disorders. How does the NTSB know that the engineer had simply not gotten sufficient sleep during his sleep cycle prior to going on duty?
The NTSB report also promotes the use of inward facing cameras that would have told them whether the engineer and conductor were sleeping.
There are several stunning photos throughout the report that are high quality and vividly portray what happened.
http://www.ntsb.gov/doclib/reports/2012/RAR1202.pdf
Bucyrus They apparently conclude that both the engineer and conductor of the coal train had sleep disorders because they worked irregular hours. Maybe I am missing something, but that conclusion seems like an incredible reach. Not everybody who works irregular hours suffers from sleep disorders. How does the NTSB know that the engineer had simply not gotten sufficient sleep during his sleep cycle prior to going on duty?
Maybe they are broadening the definition of what they consider to be a sleep disorder. So much that eventually anyone who doesn't get 8 hours of sleep between 10pm and 6am every night will be said to have a sleep disorder.
jeffhergert Bucyrus They apparently conclude that both the engineer and conductor of the coal train had sleep disorders because they worked irregular hours. Maybe I am missing something, but that conclusion seems like an incredible reach. Not everybody who works irregular hours suffers from sleep disorders. How does the NTSB know that the engineer had simply not gotten sufficient sleep during his sleep cycle prior to going on duty? Maybe they are broadening the definition of what they consider to be a sleep disorder. So much that eventually anyone who doesn't get 8 hours of sleep between 10pm and 6am every night will be said to have a sleep disorder. Jeff
Sounds like where it is headed.
As I understand it, the issue for sleep disorders in railroad employment is Shift Work Sleep Disorder (SWSD). To contract that disorder, one must work nights. It can be further complicated by working irregular shifts that include nights. It cannot be contracted by simply getting insufficient sleep during the time between work cycles. However, if one does contract SWSD by working nights, one symptom of SWSD can be the inability to sleep during the day.
In the report on the Iowa crash, the NTSB says the engineer and conductor were never evaluated for sleep disorders such as SWSD. So I do not see how the NTSB can conclude that the engineer and conductor were suffering from SWSD.
Therefore, NTSB appears to be engaging in SWSD activism in carrying the water for a movement in the context of an ostensibly fair and objective accident report. The appearance of the NTSB pushing an agenda of SWSD leads me to be skeptical of SWSD for the possibility of it being exaggerated to force the industry to pay for a costly remedy that will redound to the benefit of the special interests who will provide that remedy.
Bucyrus Therefore, NTSB appears to be engaging in SWSD activism in carrying the water for a movement in the context of an ostensibly fair and objective accident report. The appearance of the NTSB pushing an agenda of SWSD leads me to be skeptical of SWSD for the possibility of it being exaggerated to force the industry to pay for a costly remedy that will redound to the benefit of the special interests who will provide that remedy.
Guess they want to sell those sleep hats.
Sorry - couldn't resist.
Bucyrus As I understand it, the issue for sleep disorders in railroad employment is Shift Work Sleep Disorder (SWSD). To contract that disorder, one must work nights. It can be further complicated by working irregular shifts that include nights. It cannot be contracted by simply getting insufficient sleep during the time between work cycles. However, if one does contract SWSD by working nights, one symptom of SWSD can be the inability to sleep during the day. In the report on the Iowa crash, the NTSB says the engineer and conductor were never evaluated for sleep disorders such as SWSD. So I do not see how the NTSB can conclude that the engineer and conductor were suffering from SWSD. Therefore, NTSB appears to be engaging in SWSD activism in carrying the water for a movement in the context of an ostensibly fair and objective accident report. The appearance of the NTSB pushing an agenda of SWSD leads me to be skeptical of SWSD for the possibility of it being exaggerated to force the industry to pay for a costly remedy that will redound to the benefit of the special interests who will provide that remedy.
Actually, the NTSB agenda is constant audio, visual and physical monitoring of crews.
Look at their basic recommendations, inward facing cameras, with audio recording devices, both on constantly, along with a device that “alerts” the carrier if any “electronic device, analog or digital” is activated inside the cab.
Meaning cell phones, Kindles, any electronic game, most cameras, you can fill out the list.
By adding the fear of sleep disorder to their mix of “dangerous conditions” they are encouraging the carriers to now come up with a way to “monitor” employees, both at home through their sleep/rest testing procedure, hidden as a health test, and through any device the carrier can come up with in the cab.
Big brother indeed wants to watch you, 24/7.
23 17 46 11
edblysardActually, the NTSB agenda is constant audio, visual and physical monitoring of crews.
PTC is also part of the NTSB advocacy. Why does the NTSB have this agenda? Obviously it is opposed by labor. So is the NTSB pushing this on their own, or are they doing it on behalf of the railroad companies? Do the companies want PTC, inward cameras, audio recording, full time fatigue monitoring, SWSD treatment, and the restructuring of their workforce around SWSD?
SWSD not only puts employees and the public in grave danger, but it also causes a host of separate maladies such as cancer and obesity. Once SWSD is accepted on the terms presented, it opens an incredible can of worms. My sense is that the industry is not leading the charge on this, so why is the NTSB leading it?
BucyrusWhy does the NTSB have this agenda?
Bucyrus,
I went to the National Transportation Safety Board's website and input "sleep disorder" on their search function. It returned 87 hits. Some hits involve railroad accidents (including light rail) but not a lot. The biggest number of incidents by far is for driving, especially driving while drowsy. But I think it is fair to say the NSTB is concerned about sleep disorders and all forms of transportation.
Here is the link: http://www.ntsb.gov/search/search.aspx (The link is to the NATB search function; you have to enter "sleep disorder" and search yourself).
Who is NTSB's master?
edblysard Actually, the NTSB agenda is constant audio, visual and physical monitoring of crews. Look at their basic recommendations, inward facing cameras, with audio recording devices, both on constantly, along with a device that “alerts” the carrier if any “electronic device, analog or digital” is activated inside the cab. Meaning cell phones, Kindles, any electronic game, most cameras, you can fill out the list. By adding the fear of sleep disorder to their mix of “dangerous conditions” they are encouraging the carriers to now come up with a way to “monitor” employees, both at home through their sleep/rest testing procedure, hidden as a health test, and through any device the carrier can come up with in the cab. Big brother indeed wants to watch you, 24/7.
Guess we need to push for inward facing cameras and recorders for NTSB personnel and their meeting. We already know Congress needs to be drug tested before each and every vote they take.
It will be interesting to see what the NTSB says about the Oklahoma head-on collision on the U.P. last year. Why did the engineer fail to stop for the signal? Why did the conductor not respond? Testing will show whether they were impaired by drugs or alcohol. If they were not, what is the explanation for failure to heed the signal?
Technically, there would be no way to answer that question with absolute certainty. Nevertheless, will the NTSB answer with absolute certainty that the crewmembers were asleep because that is a strong probability?
If they were asleep, there is no way to know the reason why. Nevertheless, will the NTSB unequivocally state that the crewmembers fell asleep because they were suffering from sleep disorders caused by working irregular hours?
The NTSB, like most “government” agencies, has as its main goal self-sustaining job security.
I know, I worked for a state agency here for a long time, it’s all about the numbers you generate.
Any agency charged with “protecting the public” or some form of “public safety” that’s doesn’t find problems for it to fix loses it funding, and loses jobs.
It’s like going to the doctor, telling him or her you don’t feel well…he sure isn’t going to look you over, tell you nothing’s wrong and send you home to take a nap….naw, he will find something to blame for your issue, and prescribe a medicine, even if he can’t really find anything amiss, and simply prescribes Tylenol.
The NTSB will “find” a problem, even if it has to fabricate one to investigate in the first place.
Again, look at the numbers in real time…over the past 12 months, how many thousands of train starts have happened versus the number of accidents that can be attributed to fatigue or sleeping crews?
You driving to the corner grocery store is more dangerous to you and runs a greater risk of being involved in an accident than if you were standing on the front porch of any moving freight train from any carrier at any time anywhere in the US.
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