Randy Stahl 60 isn't really the magic number ..30/ 60 means you can draw full pension but... you gotta buy your own insurance until you are 63 and can draw medicare...
60 isn't really the magic number ..30/ 60 means you can draw full pension but... you gotta buy your own insurance until you are 63 and can draw medicare...
C'mon... I can barely count to 60. I'll worry about that when the time comes.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmann Randy Stahl Equip all engines with a stripper on Crystal Meth.. no one will fall asleep.. How about a stripper named Crystal Meth?
Randy Stahl Equip all engines with a stripper on Crystal Meth.. no one will fall asleep..
Equip all engines with a stripper on Crystal Meth.. no one will fall asleep..
How about a stripper named Crystal Meth?
I was going to suggest projecting porn on the windshield in a sort of "heads up display" that modern airliners have for pilots. They may not be looking out the windows at the road ahead, but they will be looking at the window. Now you'll have to make room in your grip for a pile of singles, say a stack about the size of a rulebook or two.
rrnut282 zugmann Randy Stahl Equip all engines with a stripper on Crystal Meth.. no one will fall asleep.. How about a stripper named Crystal Meth? I was going to suggest projecting porn on the windshield in a sort of "heads up display" that modern airliners have for pilots. They may not be looking out the windows at the road ahead, but they will be looking at the window. Now you'll have to make room in your grip for a pile of singles, say a stack about the size of a rulebook or two.
Railroaders are too cheap. They'd be offering bottles of water and crewpacks to the virtual strippers.
and would there by a livestock option?
Why would you need real singles to give to a VR dancer?
[Obligatory jokes about augmented-reality equipment left out of family-friendly posting]
Perhaps the thing to do is have a fan dancer, who makes suggestive comments like "Check the upcoming signal and when you call it, I'll show you something you'll REALLY like". As with fantasy strippers, the more you give the more you get; like real strippers (according the Feynman) the less you pay attention, the more 'attention' they'll give you. I see a win-win situation here.
Chippendale's file for lady engine-crew members?
What bothered me about the previous 2 threads, and this one, is that the NTSB is saying, in essence, all railroaders suffer from some form of sleep apnea, we all need diagnosing and treatment, said treatment including monitoring of our personal lives by the carrier or some new government agency.
Am I the only one that is seriously bothered by both the inferred industry wide “illness” and the proposed solution?
As I and a few other stated in the first two threads, this seems more like a solution looking for a problem than anything else.
23 17 46 11
It's an excuse, coming up with a 'syndrome' that's essentially a phony disease. I was looking at it more as a means of excusing the crewpeople: it's an unavoidable condition requiring reasonable accommodation, increased access to medical resources, less stringent work requirements, etc.
Railroads of course love anything that automates the job of the weed weasels. Almost as much as the Government likes to invent issues, or exaggerate them, so they can exert more authority, compel more compliance, and so on.
I would suspect that the actual incidence of the 'syndrome', vs. just plain old fatigue/tiredness from being called off your normal biorhythm, would be vanishingly slight. But that won't stop people from Taking Action To Address A Known, 'Science-Validated' Problem<tm>
OvermodIt's an excuse, coming up with a 'syndrome' that's essentially a phony disease.
I can surely see that. But seeing though the ploy does not prevent it from being foisted upon the industry. The definition of this syndrome has developed to the point where it has the industry over a barrel. It has taken the common sense of complications of rest into the gravity of rule G.
edblysard What bothered me about the previous 2 threads, and this one, is that the NTSB is saying, in essence, all railroaders suffer from some form of sleep apnea, we all need diagnosing and treatment, said treatment including monitoring of our personal lives by the carrier or some new government agency. Am I the only one that is seriously bothered by both the inferred industry wide “illness” and the proposed solution? As I and a few other stated in the first two threads, this seems more like a solution looking for a problem than anything else.
zugmann Randy Stahl 60 isn't really the magic number ..30/ 60 means you can draw full pension but... you gotta buy your own insurance until you are 63 and can draw medicare... C'mon... I can barely count to 60. I'll worry about that when the time comes.
Remember - there is no Overtime in retirement.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
Zugmann,
Sleep apnea is not unique to railroad employees. Many people have it and many who have it are unaware they have it.
Sleep apnea occurs when a person is unable to get proper sleep at night due to a partial collapse of the airway and perhaps other things. Sleep studies are frequently ordered to diagnose the condition. Once diagnosed there are therapies, some of which are appliances, which enable a person to sleep properly at night.
Sleep apnea, if untreated, can cause extreme fatigue during the day which can interfere with functioning on the job. Any job. Treatment will result in getting proper rest at night which will deal with the fatigue during the day.
One thing related to sleep apnea is the taking of certain medications to help a person sleep. If that is the case the cure is to stop the medications.
I am unfamiliar with the legal issues involving the NSTB. However, if an individual has a medical disorder, any medical disorder, and is treated by his own physician there are strong laws regarding the privacy of his or her medical records. The law is generally known as HIPAA, Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act.
John
We've just been advised that random drug tests (not to mention those resulting from an incident) must now test for certain OTC medications. We haven't seen the list yet, but I'd opine that it will likely include a number of meds that include "may cause drowsiness" in their list of warnings.
Not railroad, but certainly relative, considering the "snooze button" comments already made, is the finding that some kids are not woken up by smoke alarms. Testing is ongoing on a solution to this problem. One idea is that a recording of the parent's voice may be more effective. I mention this because some folks may either have, or develop an "immunity" or coping behavior for alarms meant to ensure their attention.
On the "cap," automated external defribillators (AED's) are already detecting heart rythms. Assuming that comparable wave forms can consistently be found in the brain, I wouldn't be surprised if this technology would work.
I have my doubts, though, as to whether they can discern brain activity as the result of daydreaming (maybe planning his vacation) from brain activity as the result of paying attention to what's going on on the railroad. Thus we might have an engineer who is apparently alert, and is reacting to things like the alerter appropriately, but who defines the term "distracted driver."
Edit: This just encountered - http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2013/05/09/officials-say-lack-of-sleep-is-dangerous-to-your-health/
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
An EEG recorded accurately can discern various states of consciousness. There is a large body of research going back many years. Whether or not that applies to a device/monitor worn on the job is another question.
Ditto with regard to sleep apnea. Not a "made up disease." Again a large and lengthy body of clinical research. But proper diagnosis, as far as i know, generally requires an overnight sleep study in a clinical setting. There are a number of predisposing factors, but obesity is the most common and the reason the incidence in the US has increased. Treatment is generally effective.
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
As far as wearing any monitoring device, we'll figure out how to stick a flagstick in it.
tree68 Not railroad, but certainly relative, considering the "snooze button" comments already made, is the finding that some kids are not woken up by smoke alarms. Testing is ongoing on a solution to this problem. One idea is that a recording of the parent's voice may be more effective. I mention this because some folks may either have, or develop an "immunity" or coping behavior for alarms meant to ensure their attention.
As a kid in college - a Atom Bomb would not wake me.
Once I started working for a living - most of the time I wake up 5 or so minutes before the alarm goes off. For years I used a Walk-man as a alarm that went beep beep beep. If you were 10 feet from it - you could not hear it - even if you were wide awake.
It used to be that the main issue with working nights was that it could be difficult to get enough sleep during the daytime because the rest of the world was awake and it was light outside; both having the potential to interfere with sleep. Rotating shifts could further complicate matters because they make it hard to establish a pattern. There was no disorder or disease known to be caused by a lack of sleep.
Today, a lot has changed in how this is viewed. I can’t say that it is incorrect, but I am somewhat skeptical. Any time new industries are spawned to solve a problem, one might be wise to question the problem. Railroads have deep pockets, and sleep disorders have been defined in such a way that it calls for a massive solution with an enormous cost.
According to my understanding, this is what sleep disorders amount to today:
There are two main causes:
1) Nightshift work
2) Rotating shift work
Sleep disorder can be caused by either one, but rotating shift work is more likely to cause them than routine nightshift work.
Sleep disorder can be caused by either cause even though a person is getting adequate sleep. The disorder cause is deeper than the issue of actual sleep. The main cause is the disruption of natural internal biological rhythms that change from day to night according to the actual planetary day/night cycle.
Sleep disorder can cause a person to suddenly fall asleep at any time without any feeling of drowsiness ahead of time. So, it amounts to a spontaneous loss of consciousness without warning. Furthermore, this can happen even though the person has routinely been having adequate sleep each day. The only cause might be simply working nights instead of days which disrupts the natural biological rhythm.
Some people can withstand this disruption of rhythm without developing sleep disorders, and some cannot.
The industry must determine which employees who are engaged in dangerous work are able to work nights without developing sleep disorders. Any such employees found to have sleep disorder must be either successfully treated or taken out of the dangerous service. This is where the prospect of this being a made-up disorder becomes very serious. One must assume that railroad companies only have so many alternate, non-dangerous, jobs to which a person with a sleep disorder could be transferred to.
If a method can be developed to screen people for the potential to get sleep disorder, they could simply be rejected from employment like people with other physical problems are rejected.
Prior to the discovery of sleep disorder, people working at night were often tired due to an actual lack of sleep during the day. Some people even worked another job during the day.
Prior to the discovery of sleep disorder, when a wreck was caused by a failure of the engineer to respond, one possible explanation was that he fell asleep. If so, it was assumed that being tired was the cause. If being tired were cause by insufficient sleep before going to work, it was clearly the engineer’s fault. It is the responsibility of the employee to get sufficient rest.
Today, the cause might be a simple lack of sleep the night before; but the cause might also be a sleep disorder caused by working nights, even though getting sufficient sleep. In that case, the wreck would not be the engineer’s fault. Instead, it would be the company’s fault for allowing somebody with a sleep disorder to work in a dangerous activity.
So you can see how the discovery of the sleep disorder syndrome changes the whole equation of responsibility, and forces the industry to respond in a very aggressive and costly manner. That is what I mean when I say that sleep disorders have the industry over a barrel.
There are three ways to solve the sleep disorder problem:
1) End nightshift work.
2) Test employees by questions and interviews to analyze their habits and experiences.
3) Monitor employees experiences technologically.
The “Silver Bullet” or “SmartCap” device is approach #3. It monitors the internal indicators of wakefulness and fatigue that may not be apparent even to the person being monitored. A locomotive alerter produces a signal that a person must react to in order to prove wakefulness. A SmartCap monitor determines directly whether a person is awake.
An alerter must sample wakefulness frequently because trouble can develop quickly if a person is asleep. The frequent sampling requires an easy reset response in order to keep the routine reasonably unwieldy. The easy reset response means that a person can perform it almost in their sleep. It has been found that the alerter can be reset in a state so close to total sleep that it permits total sleep during the interval between resets, thus defeating the purpose of the alerter.
As long as the alerter is reset and no accidents occur, the engineer is assumed to be awake, even though possibly suffering from a serious sleep disorder and running a high risk of having an accident. But with the SmartCap device monitoring brain function, any incident of falling asleep will be transmitted and recorded as part of the employee record. It will quickly reveal who has a sleep disorder and who does not. So it does not just prevent falling asleep (although it can do that too), but rather, it diagnoses the sleep disorder syndrome. And from that point, the person found to have the syndrome can either be treated or reassigned.
"Sleep apnea" has nothing whatsoever to do with monitoring on a locomotive. It may cause lack of restful sleep BEFORE going on duty... but let's use common sense here, a condition that makes you wake up from sleep because of a triggering of the carbon-dioxide breathing reflex is going to keep you awake, albeit perhaps crotchety. The 'sleep' that triggers the apnea is the issue.
The condition I believe you all are batting around is probably 'narcolepsy'. That is uncontrollable sleep with sudden onset. Interestingly enough, this was the original medical condition for which Adderall was prescribed. (And it works very well with limited side effects for that condition.)
I don't entirely see why the now rather large body of research on driver fatigue in road vehicles would not be applicable here. Most of those use external cues rather than EEG to determine the problem (e.g. some combination of eye and face tracking, blink reflex, response to external stimuli, etc.) , although I would cheerfully concur that an instrumented baseball cap with RF link and some means of long-term power would be a nifty thing to have... as long as its output was not being monitored as a fishing expedition for other problems. And I would not put it past a railroad to use the data that way.
(Oh yes, can someone please show me where this cap device has been tested in the presence of electromagnetic fields like those on a road locomotive? Imagine the fun if the alarm falses whenever the radio crackles, or the relays kick for transition...)
It's also possible that one of these things could be run without couplant -- but the devices I know of that can do this involve much more complex and time-critical signal analysis than those with scalp contact. Probably with a little gel rather than Sharp Points For Positive Contact.
Of course, I can now see research being funded by... ssssh, it's a secret ... with lots of people in a room developing a baseline response to the thought "CSX Sux!" in order to determine thoughtcrime. I would even expect there would be some sort of rules enhancement about 'not having a negative attitude' when on duty in engine service. Or about not manifesting 'negative emotion' to your co-workers when a supervisor is not present to handle complaints.
I can also see the Brotherhoods teaching classes in biofeedback, Zen, TM or whatever in order to influence the state of mind the device detects. It's a whole different take on a battle for hearts and minds.
Be interesting to see the case law on this if it is actually essayed.
Overmod"Sleep apnea" has nothing whatsoever to do with monitoring on a locomotive. It may cause lack of restful sleep BEFORE going on duty... but let's use common sense here, a condition that makes you wake up from sleep because of a triggering of the carbon-dioxide breathing reflex is going to keep you awake, albeit perhaps crotchety. The 'sleep' that triggers the apnea is the issue.
Allow me to inform you. The feature of sleep apnea is a condition in which breathing repeatedly stops and starts while sleeping. There are two types: obstructive, the more common form that occurs when throat muscles relax; and central, which occurs when your brain doesn't send proper signals to the muscles that control breathing. Some of he consequences of sleep apnea (doesn't need to be in quotes, as it is a widely-recognized condition) are interrupted sleep and usually a loss of duration of sleep overall along with interference with duration at certain critical levels. The result is to feel very sleepy during normal waking hours possibly (hypersomnia) or perhaps be less attentive and have lengthened reflex times. Some diminution of cognitive abilities may also be present. So the point of measuring brain wave activity, if done correctly, would be to attempt to prevent someone from nodding off while engaged in a task where doing so could be dangerous. While the prevalence rate for sleep apnea is 3-7%, it is only 0.07% for narcolepsy, a rare disorder.
I assume that sleep apnea is considered to be a sleep disorder, but a failure to get sufficient rest, whether due to sleep apnea or not spending enough time in bed is not what I would consider to be a part of the topic of this or the other two threads on sleep disorders. The sleep disorder under consideration here is induced by nightshift work alone, and not related to insufficient sleep.
However, the brain wave monitor could prevent falling asleep due to a lack of sleep brought on by causes other than nightshift work.
BucyrusI assume that sleep apnea is considered to be a sleep disorder, but a failure to get sufficient rest, whether due to sleep apnea or not spending enough time in bed is not what I would consider to be a part of the topic of this or the other two threads on sleep disorders. The sleep disorder under consideration here is induced by nightshift work alone, and not related to insufficient sleep.
Working a nigh shift can cause sleep problems. But that is not the the only thing that can cause them. People who work for a railroad can have any of the health problems to which human beings encounter.
Having worked rotating shifts for a number of years, I can tell you that despite best efforts, it's not always possible to get a good "night's" sleep, even in your own bed.
I was not a railroad employee - I had a data processing position. Sleep interrupters included two school age children, neighbors, and the occasional need to handle some business matter such as any of us would have to do (ie, banking, DMV, etc).
Add sleeping in strange beds (motels/hotels), different noise patterns, and other interruptions, and it's not hard to see that someone with an irregular schedule could rapidly become sleep deprived. And even two days off in a row may not be enough to "catch up."
Given the nature of mainline railroading (yard jobs tend to be a little more predictable, methinks), that sleep is an issue is not a surprise.
Bucyrus I assume that sleep apnea is considered to be a sleep disorder, but a failure to get sufficient rest, whether due to sleep apnea or not spending enough time in bed is not what I would consider to be a part of the topic of this or the other two threads on sleep disorders. The sleep disorder under consideration here is induced by nightshift work alone, and not related to insufficient sleep. However, the brain wave monitor could prevent falling asleep due to a lack of sleep brought on by causes other than nightshift work.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I've been on the railroad for 36 years, 2 in train service and the last 34 as an engineer. Most of this time has been in road freight service, a great deal in unassigned pool service. My experience has been that most of my sleep problems have occurred at home. As TREE68 stated, personal life trumps sleep needs, families require time which often directly interferes with rest requirements. As I've gotten older, I find that the sleep monster is not as potent a foe as in my early railroad days, but it's still there. We have some factors which have definitely been stacked against us over the years. Freight crew runs have doubled and more over the traditional 100 mile day. Crew size has been whittled down to two. And, the engine cabs are much quieter and more comfortable. Some of the newer GE's, my favorites being the ES40DC's ride like a limo and can be as quiet as a library. My employer has allowed us a napping policy, when stopped at a stop signal. This is to be an agreed upon arrangement between crew members, one at a time, no more than 15mins. It helps a lot, though it only sanctions what we had been doing for years in violation of the rules. One problem that sometimes arises is that there are some employees who consistently make no effort to stay awake, whether you're moving or standing still. This tends to manifest itself more among the younger guys, but I've also had a few old heads who nodded down the road, trip after trip. In these cases, one is truly alone. If you've been caught short, this can make for a miserable trip. I have found the best situation is to have both crew members aware and considerate of each others condition. Two heads are always better than one. I fear that any kind of "magic hat" would be just one more distraction and possibly only provide warning after a lapse has occurred. I have no doubt that such technology would be viewed by the carriers as a perfect case for removing that "useless" second body from the cab! We are currently being bombarded by information requests by "trip optimizer" which I view as an annoying distraction. PTC technology promises to give us a wonderful display of stuff we already know, and the current FRA rest policy guarantees us copious amounts of rest at our away from home terminals, so that we sleep our way out of the rest cycle and arrive home bushed, but still needing to plow through the things that being a husband/dad/human require. So, just look out for each other. Make the best effort you can to get enough rest. Please don't provide any more invasive technology for my own good. I'm already pretty certain that ERAD has the capability of giving me a thorough prostate exam, I sure don't want something monitoring my brain waves. Examining my head will get you nothing!
Murphy Siding The quote from the first post is written like there was an expectation that technology would provide a breakthrough development within a year- as in a *fix* for the problem. What you have referenced in the link to the night-cap thingy is simply a high tech way to know when there is a problem, but not a way to fix the problem.
The quote from the first post is written like there was an expectation that technology would provide a breakthrough development within a year- as in a *fix* for the problem. What you have referenced in the link to the night-cap thingy is simply a high tech way to know when there is a problem, but not a way to fix the problem.
Exactly. This is not a silver bullet. A silver bullet solves a certain type of problem (like warewolves). This, at best, is a silver radar detector. It lets you know of a problem, but that problem is already known.
Murphy Siding Bucyrus "But technologically, it won't be hard to fix. I'll bet you that we actually hear about this breakthrough development within a year. It will be like a dead man control, but it will be far more sophisticated. It will be able to detect whether a person is sleeping, fatigued, exhausted, or tired. It is really not far fetched at all. I'll have to think of a good name for it. " The quote from the first post is written like there was an expectation that technology would provide a breakthrough development within a year- as in a *fix* for the problem. What you have referenced in the link to the night-cap thingy is simply a high tech way to know when there is a problem, but not a way to fix the problem.
Bucyrus "But technologically, it won't be hard to fix. I'll bet you that we actually hear about this breakthrough development within a year. It will be like a dead man control, but it will be far more sophisticated. It will be able to detect whether a person is sleeping, fatigued, exhausted, or tired. It is really not far fetched at all. I'll have to think of a good name for it. "
"But technologically, it won't be hard to fix. I'll bet you that we actually hear about this breakthrough development within a year. It will be like a dead man control, but it will be far more sophisticated. It will be able to detect whether a person is sleeping, fatigued, exhausted, or tired. It is really not far fetched at all. I'll have to think of a good name for it. "
It is precisely a technological breakthrough development within a year as a fix, as I predicted one year ago. Knowing who has the problem is the fix to the problem. I predicted a technological fix as opposed to the current testing and interview diagnosis, which is subjective and unwieldy. The technological fix has arrived as I predicted.
I disagree. Knowing who has the problem isn't the fix to the problem. It is only knowing who has the problem. In fact, it is only knowing who has the problem who didn't already know they had the problem. Knowing who has TB doesn't fix the problem any more than knowing who has sleep disorders fixes that problem.
schlimm Overmod"Sleep apnea" has nothing whatsoever to do with monitoring on a locomotive. It may cause lack of restful sleep BEFORE going on duty... but let's use common sense here, a condition that makes you wake up from sleep because of a triggering of the carbon-dioxide breathing reflex is going to keep you awake, albeit perhaps crotchety. The 'sleep' that triggers the apnea is the issue. Allow me to inform you.
Allow me to inform you.
"Inform" me of what? I worked for six years on developing non-intrusive SIDS monitors and can tell you far more than Wikipedia about the causes of central sleep apnea (which from the language in your reply are probably unknown to you in technical detail).
The fact remains that sleep apnea can only be (meaningfully) detected or treated at home, or during times of FRA-mandated away-from-home 'rest'. The magic cap, or any other detection device on the locomotive or at work, has no connection with 'sleep apnea' other than that the person concerned may be sleepy -- which of course is fairly obvious.
I thoroughly agree that some form of detection and, if possible, treatment of the sleep apnea is valuable, and further that railroads might well agree to compensate workers for testing and therapy for the condition. In the 'bad old days' railroads might have treated a propensity to sleep apnea much the same as they did deuteranopia... perhaps they still might. But it is an excuse to think that sleep apnea as a syndrome has anything to do, other than circumstantially, with the topic of this thread, which is monitoring and detection of the 'sleepy' condition, regardless of its etiology.
The point you make about the actual point of measuring brain wave activity, done correctly, is imho correct. But we both agreed on that from the start. What I tried to introduce into the discussion is that there are other ways of gauging operational competence that do not involve direct EEG. (And the situation with brainwave monitoring is a complex one in this context -- it's not just alpha v. theta or whatever, and probably would require considerably more work than 'symptom detection' approaches...)
Murphy Siding Knowing who has the problem isn't the fix to the problem.
But knowing who has the problem makes fixing the problem possible.
zugmannC'mon... I can barely count to 60. I'll worry about that when the time comes.
LION is 65. Him is always sleepy. Maybe that is due to being a cat. Him can sleep day and night, but especially in church. Maybe that is not bad for a locomotive engineer to sleep in church, but for a monk? That's like sleeping through a red homeball.
LION had all of the answers, but they seem to have evaporated. RAILROAD of LION is fully automated, it does not matter if the LPPs in the cab are awake or asleep. Running a train is only marginally more difficult than operating an elevator, and automatic train control is only marginally more complicated.
STAY awake, or you could be replaced by a GPS and a microchip.
At least you cannot replace a monk with a microchip.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Our community is FREE to join. To participate you must either login or register for an account.