BroadwayLion In Japan, the operator must point at each signal, and SING ALOUD its aspect. All of this is being recorded by Big San in the control room.
In Japan, the operator must point at each signal, and SING ALOUD its aspect. All of this is being recorded by Big San in the control room.
That's how a disaster was averted near Syracuse a few years ago. Alert ears (including other crews) noted that they weren't hearing an Amtrak train calling signals when they thought they should have been. I don't remember the rest of the details, but that one come to mind.
Before I read the Sodoku comment, it had occured to me that the next step in resetting alerters might be a "password" on a keypad. It might be something as simple as the locomotive number, or something as complex as an individually assigned code.
Another option would be to require some other more complex action (ie, something like CNTL+ALT+DEL on a computer) that would be that much more difficult to complete without being cognizant of one's surroundings.
As things stand now, however, it would still be possible to reset the alerter without having to touch the keypad, simply by bumping the throttle up (or down) a notch, then back to where you wanted it, or by using any of the several other controls that will reset the timer. Time for a two-minute toot, anyone?
Of course, a lot of this keys on how often the alerter has to be reset. On our newest locomotives, that runs to around 20 seconds - a lot of keypad time.
Larry Resident Microferroequinologist (at least at my house) Everyone goes home; Safety begins with you My Opinion. Standard Disclaimers Apply. No Expiration Date Come ride the rails with me! There's one thing about humility - the moment you think you've got it, you've lost it...
Murphy Siding,
How am I splitting hairs? The point of an alerter is to wake up the engineer. If it can't do that, what good is it?
What is needed is an alerter that knows when a person is sleeping and only alerts when sleep occurs. It would be like the SmartCap I mentioned earlier.
BucyrusThere is no question that you can reset the alerter and quickly fall asleep. And you can sleep right up to the next alerter alarm. So a person can sleep entirely through the time lapses between alerter alarms.
This has nothing to do with sleep as you are trying to define it. It has to do with drowsiness, attention to the railroad, and being alert and aware of your surroundings.
Let me take you back a few years to Chatworth, California. The Engineer in question was indeed wide awake, but he was not alert to what he was *supposed* to be doing. He was trying to put some moves on some teenage kid who liked trains. He did not see the signal, he did not see the turnout, and he did not see the UP locomotives until they landed in his lap.
If you are pulling 100 cars through the middle of nowhere in the middle of the night toward the end of a long shift, you might not be alert to what is happening. The rhythm of the locomotive is very soothing, the desert very memorizing, and your body is craving some sleep. You can tap the alerter for hours and never once look out the window or even open your eyes.
Alert means you know what you are doing up there on the footplates. It means that you are in control of your locomotives and train, and that you are paying attention.
In Japan, the operator must point at each signal, and SING ALOUD its aspect. All of this is being recorded by Big San in the control room. Maybe if we WORSHIP the signals they will act like oracles and tell you what is going to happen to you next.
ROAR
The Route of the Broadway Lion The Largest Subway Layout in North Dakota.
Here there be cats. LIONS with CAMERAS
Now you're splitting split hairs. What do you want?... an alerter that makes the engineer push a button and then do a sudoku puzzle?
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
I gues what is needed is an smart alerter that will know whether an engineer is asleep or awake, and will not reset if he or she is asleep. Such an aleter would know how to define sleep.
I don't think it raises any questions. Anybody who has a snooze button on their alarm clock will tell you that they have hit the snooze button without waking up.
There is no question that you can reset the alerter and quickly fall asleep. And you can sleep right up to the next alerter alarm. So a person can sleep entirely through the time lapses between alerter alarms.
The only question this raises is whether the person sleeping up to and after the alerter alarm reset can actually sleep during the alarm reset. For the answer to that question, we need a definition of sleep.
It is one thing to sleep through the time lapse on either side of a reset; and another thing to sleep continuously through the time lapse and the reset.
But for all practical purposes, either process is problematic. Whether or not a person is actually awake during the reset is not particularly relevant if they are sleeping entirely through the quiet phases between alerts.
The fundamental problem with the alerter is that it creates a false sense of security, which can reassure an engineer that he does not have to struggle to stay awake if he is confident that nothing requiring his attention will arise within the next alerter cycle. Without an alerter, and engineer knows that falling asleep might suspend consciousness long enough get into a train handling situation that requires his response.
If an engineer is sleeping between alerts, and is awake during the reset, it suggests that the engineer would look around and assess the situation to make sure nothing requires his attention before going back to sleep.
However, the more time the engineer spends assessing the situation before going back to sleep, the shorter his next nap will be. So there is an incentive to just reset the alerter with as little sleep disruption as possible. In such a case, there would be a limited awareness during the reset even if one is awake.
tree68I would opine that NTSB may not want that in their report as it may not square with where they'd like this to go. In fact, it might tend to imply that the problem is even bigger than anyone wants to admit...
I think you have a good point, Larry.
The NTSB also writes several paragraphs about "fatigue management" and gives a detailed history of the waking and sleeping periods for the 2 employees in the days before the accident. What the report fails to say is that the employer has a large amount of control over fatigue management because the employer can and does call people to work at any time with little notice. Employees cannot possibly manage their fatigue when they must respond to an employer calling them to work at will. Perhaps this is part of the problem that is "bigger than anyone wants to admit."
John
John WR BroadwayLionAs I said: It is possible to run a train in your sleep. You can move the throttle or push the alerter without ever opening your eyes or being aware of what is around you , or what you are doing. If the NTSB believes that is what happened it would be helpful if they would write that in their report.
BroadwayLionAs I said: It is possible to run a train in your sleep. You can move the throttle or push the alerter without ever opening your eyes or being aware of what is around you , or what you are doing.
If the NTSB believes that is what happened it would be helpful if they would write that in their report.
LION is an RN and has worked shifts, and mostly nights. Him has some sleep issues, and can be tired even after getting up. Him must be very careful while driving, and keeps energy drinks handy. Not that caffeine will do much to keep a LION awake. Him goes to bed with a bottle of Diet Pepsi in a special holder built onto the head of his bed. Him has long plastic straw so him need not get up to drink at night.
So, even if LION never drive a train, him *knows* what "sleepy" is all about. The Abbot thinks that his LION sleeps through some of our prayers, but him is actually awake even if he looks asleep. Sometimes he will even turn a page. And now, LION will get himself ready for bed. ZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
This thread is interesting in that it is easy to tell who is a railroader and who is not (although others that work on-call and irregular schedules will fit more into the rail camp), just by their pontifications.
John WRWhat I do here and all that is do is to try to understand what the NTSB means in their report. I wish they had addressed just what they mean by saying the engineer and conductor had both "fallen asleep" in a very short time.
As I said: It is possible to run a train in your sleep. You can move the throttle or push the alerter without ever opening your eyes or being aware of what is around you , or what you are doing. Reflex actions do not require input from the brain, only from the spinal column.
BroadwayLionThis is not about what you associate with sleep. It is a matter of being impaired while operating the locomotive.
Lion,
In point 4 of their conclusion the NTSB simply says that the engineer and conductor had "fallen alseep." That is not a technical or scientific phrase but ordinary English which suggests it should be understood as we would understand it in conversation. Nor is any specific definition of the phrase given. There is no clarification about "impairment" or "microbursts" or anything else. Considering that within 2 minutes the engineer was awake and alert enough to adjust the throttle and to press the alerter button, I do wonder about the short period of time between being awake and being asleep.
What I do here and all that is do is to try to understand what the NTSB means in their report. I wish they had addressed just what they mean by saying the engineer and conductor had both "fallen asleep" in a very short time.
BroadwayLion BucyrusBut I associate sleep with a complete suspension of cognitive or conscious action, so I don't know if it is technically possible to reset the alerter while fully asleep. This is not about what you associate with sleep. It is a matter of being impaired while operating the locomotive. Sleep or even drowsiness is an impairment to safe operation. Tired people are subject to "Micro-Bursts of Sleep" as long as ten seconds or so. These can be dangerous, because you may not know that you are having them.
BucyrusBut I associate sleep with a complete suspension of cognitive or conscious action, so I don't know if it is technically possible to reset the alerter while fully asleep.
This is not about what you associate with sleep. It is a matter of being impaired while operating the locomotive. Sleep or even drowsiness is an impairment to safe operation. Tired people are subject to "Micro-Bursts of Sleep" as long as ten seconds or so. These can be dangerous, because you may not know that you are having them.
Yes, I understand, but my statement that you said was "not so" was a statement about sleep. It was not about being drowsy or tired.
I said this: "Therefore, if the engineer of the striking train collided with the train ahead because he was asleep, he had 1 minute 11 seconds to fall asleep."
I only made the statement in response to the question posed as to how someone could fall asleep so fast after making a conscious decision to change the throttle setting. My only point was to clarify exactly how much time was available to fall asleep.
Without enough sleep, people are in danger while completing their day to day tasks. Drinking and driving is as dangerous as staying awake too long and driving. Using machinery at all can be hazardous on little sleep. Without the right quantity of sleep, reaction times become slower. Inappropriate sleep can occur when someone is excessively overtired. This often means microbursts of sleep that last up to 10 seconds. During those seconds, injuries occur. In the United States, lack of sleep causes 71,000 injuries on the highways. Fatigue regularly causes 1,500 deaths in highway accidents.
CSSHEGEWISCH After following this and several other threads, I've been dismayed by the adversial reactions of multiple forum members to the actions and reports of the National Transportation Safety Board. The role of the NTSB is that of accident prevention and the promotion of safe operation in various transport modes. It has little to no enforcement power and its reports are not admissible in court. It has no axe to grind and judging by the reactions on this forum, is not afraid to ruffle feathers. Why is safety so controversial??
After following this and several other threads, I've been dismayed by the adversial reactions of multiple forum members to the actions and reports of the National Transportation Safety Board. The role of the NTSB is that of accident prevention and the promotion of safe operation in various transport modes. It has little to no enforcement power and its reports are not admissible in court. It has no axe to grind and judging by the reactions on this forum, is not afraid to ruffle feathers.
Why is safety so controversial??
Why?
Probably because so often what begins in the name of "safety" turns out to be or is twisted into just another disciplinary tool. That some safety procedures have holes in them big enough to run a train through them. That some things done in the name of safety don't really make anyone safer, it just gives the appearance of being proactive on safety. Then if you dare question some of the more questionable aspects, someone (especially on on forums like this one) will just say you aren't for safety.
Jeff
"Uphill slow, downhill fast. Tonnage first, horsepower last. The rail is bad, the ties are worse. What's all this about safety first?"
Bucyrus CSSHEGEWISCH After following this and several other threads, I've been dismayed by the adversial reactions of multiple forum members to the actions and reports of the National Transportation Safety Board. The role of the NTSB is that of accident prevention and the promotion of safe operation in various transport modes. It has little to no enforcement power and its reports are not admissible in court. It has no axe to grind and judging by the reactions on this forum, is not afraid to ruffle feathers. Why is safety so controversial?? I don’t think anybody is opposed to safety. Certainly no railroaders are opposed to safety. And because nobody can be opposed to safety, it can encourage opportunistic overreach in the name of safety. I think some railroaders are wary of that especially if it entails a sort of “big brother” intrusiveness into their private lives in a way that can threaten their employment. For instance, the unions on behalf of workers, do not want inward facing cameras because they worry that the personal information might be used unfairly. The NTSB does want them in the name of safety. How do you feel about inward facing cameras?
I don’t think anybody is opposed to safety. Certainly no railroaders are opposed to safety. And because nobody can be opposed to safety, it can encourage opportunistic overreach in the name of safety. I think some railroaders are wary of that especially if it entails a sort of “big brother” intrusiveness into their private lives in a way that can threaten their employment.
For instance, the unions on behalf of workers, do not want inward facing cameras because they worry that the personal information might be used unfairly. The NTSB does want them in the name of safety. How do you feel about inward facing cameras?
In regards to the inward-facing cameras, what personal information? On the job one forfeits many rights to privacy we have as individuals. And again why is there such a tone of hostility toward regulations designed to improve safety?
C&NW, CA&E, MILW, CGW and IC fan
BroadwayLionBucyrusTherefore, if the engineer of the striking train collided with the train ahead because he was asleep, he had 1 minute 11 seconds to fall asleep. This is not so. He could have been asleep for a half an hour or more. It is not problem at all to operate a locomotive in your sleep. Now think about your train. How hard is it to touch the alerter with your eyes closed. How hard is it to make minor throttle adjustments with your eyes closed. The sad truth is you CAN operate a train in your sleep, and if you *can* do it then it *does* happen.
BucyrusTherefore, if the engineer of the striking train collided with the train ahead because he was asleep, he had 1 minute 11 seconds to fall asleep.
This is not so. He could have been asleep for a half an hour or more. It is not problem at all to operate a locomotive in your sleep.
Now think about your train. How hard is it to touch the alerter with your eyes closed. How hard is it to make minor throttle adjustments with your eyes closed. The sad truth is you CAN operate a train in your sleep, and if you *can* do it then it *does* happen.
I believe it is accurate to say that he had 1 minute 11 seconds to fall asleep. I understand your point that he did have more time if he was able to reset the alerter while asleep. And I understand your point that it is possible to reset the alerter while nearly asleep.
But I associate sleep with a complete suspension of cognitive or conscious action, so I don't know if it is technically possible to reset the alerter while fully asleep. After all, the alerter does alert. So when a person resets it, it is because the alerter alerted them to the need for reset. So it seems to me that there has to be some conscious action in the reset response.
The main characteristic that I associate with the action known as “sleeping on the alterter” is that a person is able to reset it and immediately fall back into total sleep. In the case of this collision, the engineer had 1 minute 11 seconds between the last throttle adjustment and the impact. Now we don’t know if something else might have occurred capable of waking him up during that span. If he happened to get stung by a wasp 41 seconds after resetting the throttle, then he had on 30 seconds to fall asleep before impact.
But, in any case, assuming no disturbance after the last throttle adjustment, the engineer did in fact have 1 minute 11 seconds to fall asleep. He may have had more, so maybe I should stipulate that he had 1 minute 11 seconds minimum.
On NYCT that throttle in front of you has a built in dead man's switch. I can assure you that it will not stop your train if you just fall asleep. You do not loose your muscle tone while you sleep.
I have a teddy bear and I hold on to him every night. No matter how I toss and turn during the night, the bear stays in my arm where I put him all night long.
It is YOUR OWN LIFE in that cab, you darn well better do it right. To bad you cannot stand up, brew some coffee, or do other normal human things while you are running a locomotive. You have TWO people in there, the BOTH should be qualified to run the locomotive, and they should spell each other every 30 to 60 minutes or so.
Because jumps to conclusions do not safety make.
I take issue with anybody just making up a result that fits an agenda. In this case, accusing a dead crew of sleeping when we know for a fact at least one was awake 1:11 prior to the wreck. Were they sleeping? Who knows - but they have no way of knowing that.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
zugmannThsoe support programs are fine for those of us lucky enough to hold yard jobs with regular hours. For the poor guys on extra lists and unassigned pool jobs - it can be tough. Only being home a few hours every couple of days doesn't leave much time to do all that healthy stuff as you'd like. And most of the hotels do not offer great fitness facilities, and back before this mandatory 10 hour rest thing, I was almost always called 6 for 8 on my rest anyhow. And many of the road trips involved nothing more physical than sitting on one's posterior getting up to line a switch or 2, and tying on a handbrake or 3.
Amen Zugman
edblysard John, Trust me, both held a engineers license, both worked for a Class 1 railroad, neither was impoverished by any stretch of the imagination and both had excellent insurance Both had ample support, through their medical caregiver and union. As the husband of a diabetic, I can vouch for the aftercare our insurance providers offer, including but not limited to support groups, research updates, involvement in all types of activities like health club and gym memberships. High blood pressure and diabetes are both very common illnesses, both are highly and effectively controlled through medication and alternative treatments,
John,
Trust me, both held a engineers license, both worked for a Class 1 railroad, neither was impoverished by any stretch of the imagination and both had excellent insurance
Both had ample support, through their medical caregiver and union.
As the husband of a diabetic, I can vouch for the aftercare our insurance providers offer, including but not limited to support groups, research updates, involvement in all types of activities like health club and gym memberships.
High blood pressure and diabetes are both very common illnesses, both are highly and effectively controlled through medication and alternative treatments,
Thsoe support programs are fine for those of us lucky enough to hold yard jobs with regular hours. For the poor guys on extra lists and unassigned pool jobs - it can be tough. Only being home a few hours every couple of days doesn't leave much time to do all that healthy stuff as you'd like. And most of the hotels do not offer great fitness facilities, and back before this mandatory 10 hour rest thing, I was almost always called 6 for 8 on my rest anyhow. And many of the road trips involved nothing more physical than sitting on one's posterior getting up to line a switch or 2, and tying on a handbrake or 3.
Same with eating, even if you try to pack enough healthy food to get you through 2 trips and a hotel stay (hard with all the other crap you need to carry), most of the hotels are only within walking distance of the local puke n' choke restaurants/convenience stores.
I do trust you, Ed. No one would be happier than I if I were proven wrong on this issue. However, I am sure that anyone who works for the railroad does have as good medical insurance as you can get in the US.
23 17 46 11
BucyrusWell if they were being treated for those three problems, why would you assume that information and support for those problems were not available to them?
Bucyrus,
For two reasons. First, I have high blood pressure and diabetes and I live in the New York Metropolitan Area. This kind of support is not available to me or at least I have never heard of it being available.
Second, I spent many years in charge of outreach activities for a large Federal Agency (unrelated to health care) in one local area. I myself got almost no support from my own agency beyond my own manager and ultimately my manager could no longer support my own activities because our staffing levels were so severely cut back.
The Federal Government does do a lot for certain groups and I do not criticize what it does. But for ordinary working people who are not impoverished very little is done.
John WR Both the engineer and the conductor had a constellation of 3 medical problems: Obesity, high blood pressure and diabetes. Both were getting medical treatment for the high blood pressure and diabetes and taking prescribed medicine so they most likely thought they were managing their condition as well as they reasonably could. But I suspect they could have done more and they did not do more because the information and support for changing habits years long were not really available. And it seems to me that the broader society needs to do more to provide support for people with these problems not because of this accident or because of railroads but simply so our working citizens can have longer and better lives. John
Well if they were being treated for those three problems, why would you assume that information and support for those problems were not available to them?
Bucyrus But I have had vivid experience of this while driving. Most people call it nodding off. You fall asleep and wake up a few seconds later with a startle.
Well, I'll certainly take your word for it, Bucyrus. I do not recall it ever happening to me.
Please bear with me for a short rant. Both the engineer and the conductor had a constellation of 3 medical problems: Obesity, high blood pressure and diabetes. Both were getting medical treatment for the high blood pressure and diabetes and taking prescribed medicine so they most likely thought they were managing their condition as well as they reasonably could. But I suspect they could have done more and they did not do more because the information and support for changing habits years long were not really available. And it seems to me that the broader society needs to do more to provide support for people with these problems not because of this accident or because of railroads but simply so our working citizens can have longer and better lives.
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