Is there such thing as an on the go track gauge changer for railroads?
alloboard Is there such thing as an on the go track gauge changer for railroads?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
I think TALGO of Spain has one. Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZiH4kt14yGw and this one too: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U_LFIUkcPNM
Track gauge changer? The TALGO of Spain is the only place I've heard of...the track gauge differs between France and Spain. Used to be that the car was lifted from one set of bogies to another as was done elsewhere around the world...several locations in the US as a matter of fact. Here as Alloboard has given us, is the idea of the wheels and axles changing in place is accomplished but the train is standing still. So, the answer is "no, not in motion but when stopped, yes."
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I think you are talking about an on the go wheel gauge changer, not something used to change track gauge. In the past, a number of ways to adjust effective wheelset gauge have been tried, involving things like wide tread (the concept in part responsible for the Angola Horror) and extended axle seats for movable wheels. None of these solutions was workable once you got above 1850s levels of load and speed, or ran them for any great length of time.
Several systems have indeed been developed that allow 'automatic' setting of wheelset gauge continuously, as the train is moving (which I think is what you're asking.) As you might suspect, the idea is not particularly new, but making it reasonably automatic and failsafe at the same time is. At one time I had a file with patents and technical information on a variety of these systems, but I can't access it quickly now. While I hate to quote Wikipedia as a definitive reference, they have a reasonable discussion of some of the existing alternatives on this page, which includes some of the historical references as well.
Here also is a link to an article with more detail on the Unichanger that was mentioned briefly in the Wikipedia article.
Here is a video that shows the Spanish version with horizontal transition 'ramps'
If you need more specific information, ask.
RME
Guage change on the fly ? That is a relative term. I was in Spain while the standard guage HSR line from Madrid ( early construction ) to Barcelona. ( later construction ) was being built. Rode a wide guage set Talgo out of Barcelona pulled by a wide guage motor. Somewhere between the 2 cities where the wide guage came close to the HSR we diverted north close to a single track building .The motor cut off and diverted on a siding. Then a switcher coupled on the rear end of train and pushed us thru the guage changer.Don't remember the speed but not more than 5 MPH.. About 1/2 of train thru the building the switcher pushed us to couple up to a standard guage motor which then pulled us thru the rest of the buildng. And off we went to Madrid.
leaning out I can list observations & speculate as to the method. The brakes on the trucks used center axel mounted rotors but do not rememer if a brake shoe was on the top part of wheels. The wheels rims seemed to be squeezed in by wooden blocks to standard guage parallel to tracks that also were bent to standard guage. There was a pit but could not see what car mmen had to do. Also unknow if this was done in reverse. Note the blocks may have had small wheels ?.
The Chineese are building an unkinow number of train sets based on this technology so they can run trains from China to Moscow . Before this method dedicated rail car trucks that had all auxilaries on trucks with quick disconnects were used. The trucks were changed using some kind of dual drop tables. ( probably had three rails ) The car did have to be supported as wheel set changed out.
What strikes me is that of all of the lack of standardization of 19th century railroads different track gauges makes the least sense. There are a few cases where narrow gauge railroads are practical. For example, a logging railroad that does not connect with any other railroad and is only temporary anyway. But almost always it would have been a lot wiser for railroads to build to the same gauge from the very beginning. That, however, is not what they did here in the USA.
John WRWhat strikes me is that of all of the lack of standardization of 19th century railroads different track gauges makes the least sense. But almost always it would have been a lot wiser for railroads to build to the same gauge from the very beginning.
But almost always it would have been a lot wiser for railroads to build to the same gauge from the very beginning.
Starting out with a standard gage in the 1800’s would have been wise, but that was not possible because they could not agree on which gage was best. If, for instance, we were to start from scratch today with no previous railroad art, I doubt we would pick 56-½ inches.
BucyrusStarting out with a standard gage in the 1800’s would have been wise, but that was not possible because they could not agree on which gage was best.
Well yes, Bycyrus. But it isn't just gauge those guys couldn't agree on. They couldn't agree on much of anything. And they could not work together to make a single coherent rail system that would have benefited them all.
As late as World War I they couldn't even agree on what kind of box car was best.
There was a bit of disagreement over in Britain as well, the birthplace of railroads. Most pushed for and got four feet, eight -and-one-half inches, but ol' Isambard Kingdom Brunel advocated a seven foot gauge, even building a railroad of his own to that specification. Didn't last though. Was Mr. Brunel right? Maybe in the long run he probably was, but there's no going back now.
The Erie originally built to a six foot gauge, but that didn't last either.
Back when there was a railroad in Newfoundland, cars from the mainland would be lifted from the standard gauge trucks and set on narrow gauge trucks at Port-aux-Basques--and the process would be reversed for cars going back to the mainland.
Johnny
John WRBucyrusStarting out with a standard gage in the 1800’s would have been wise, but that was not possible because they could not agree on which gage was best. Well yes, Bycyrus. But it isn't just gauge those guys couldn't agree on. They couldn't agree on much of anything. And they could not work together to make a single coherent rail system that would have benefited them all.
Yes, there was disagreement, but it was not just due to people being disagreeable or quarrelsome, if that is what you are suggesting. I am sure they did indeed want a rail system that benefitted them all as you say. But while they differed over gage, they did so in the most sober and thoughtful manner, based on deep thinking about engineering, economics, and future projection. But what energized the debate was their conflicting interests.
What I am saying is that a gage war is a fundamental and inevitable component of the beginning of railroad institution. We are truly beyond that phase now worldwide, so the problem will never arise again as it did in the beginning.
In the beginning, railroads were not much concerned about interchangeability, so standardizing gage was not that obvious of a benefit. Once railroad systems grew large enough to frequently connect, the benefit of interchangeability became an obvious objective. However, by that time, railroads of differing gages had a substantial investment in plant, and a consequent interest and financial stake to preserve their gage.
In other words, they would rather have the other guy build to their gage than to change their own already existing gage. Overall, our exact standard gage was as much happenstance as rational engineering. We got it in the right ballpark. But there is no way to prove that 56-1/2 inches is optimum. We are now simply stuck with it for better or worse.
BucyrusIn the beginning, railroads were not much concerned about interchangeability, so standardizing gage was not that obvious of a benefit. Once railroad systems grew large enough to frequently connect, the benefit of interchangeability became an obvious objective.
From what I have read many private railroads did not want to interchange with other railroads. They thought it would erode their profits. They were also afraid their rolling stock would be lost or stolen and they mistrusted each other so much that fear was valid. At the bottom, they just were not able to trust each other and so tried to insulate themselves from each other as much as possible.
The legacy of mistrust is still with us in the lack of a connection between New York's two great stations. And what Robert Young said about Chicago is still true. A pig does not have to change trains in Chicago but we people do. At least we no longer have to change stations too.
I don't criticize private railroads for being private railroads. The Federal government wanted nothing to do with them for many many years. But we do still pay a price for private ownership of railroads.
John WRBucyrusIn the beginning, railroads were not much concerned about interchangeability, so standardizing gage was not that obvious of a benefit. Once railroad systems grew large enough to frequently connect, the benefit of interchangeability became an obvious objective. From what I have read many private railroads did not want to interchange with other railroads. They thought it would erode their profits. They were also afraid their rolling stock would be lost or stolen and they mistrusted each other so much that fear was valid. At the bottom, they just were not able to trust each other and so tried to insulate themselves from each other as much as possible.
No doubt there was some of that, but overall, I don’t think their motives were that cynical. The narrower the gage, the lower the cost of construction; and the wider the gage, the more stable the trains rode. And within that framework there were many complex tradeoffs and compromises that played out in the economics of construction and operation. The pros and cons of gage even varied with the terrain. And this all had to be reconciled against the expansion of business that was surely anticipated.
The choice of gage could be an extremely daunting decision because so much was at stake and once the decision was made, it was nearly impossible to change. Some learned the hard way when they were ultimately forced to heroically change the gage of their entire system in a matter of hours in order to do so with the least disruption to traffic and business.
BucyrusThe choice of gage could be an extremely daunting decision because so much was at stake and once the decision was made, it was nearly impossible to change. Some learned the hard way when they were ultimately forced to heroically change the gage of their entire system in a matter of hours in order to do so with the least disruption to traffic and business.
Bucyrus,
You make it really hard for me to argue when your statements are not only true but also clearly true to anyone who has even a slight knowledge of railroads.
Yes, the decisions were difficult because first of all the railroad builders had a limited amount of money and had to create an expensive rail line with that money before they could earn anything at all. And there could be real benefits from building a broader gauge than the standard which President Lincoln decided on. But for all of that there were some benefits to a uniform gauge and it does seem to me that those benefits were ignored by some roads. The New York and Erie, for example. And it seems to me that there was a lot of mistrust between the managements of different railroads. That is why they could never enforce agreements among themselves for standard freight rates as long as the government allowed such agreements.
John
There was no standard...there was what builders' though was good for them, practical for them, and fit the financial constraints. Look at all the 6 foot gauge roads built as well the myriad of narrow gauges used. What we called Standard was based on English railroads and came about because the railroads themselves became aware of the value and need of interchange. Yes, some places a narrow gauge was fitting and so continued, but those were few and far between and often captive or segregated. Same with broad gauges for trolley and transit lines. It wan't a matter of ignoring but a matter of convenience, necessity, or not being important at the moment of building. Nothing sinister, nothing criminal, not even stupidity.
henry6It wan't a matter of ignoring but a matter of convenience, necessity, or not being important at the moment of building. Nothing sinister, nothing criminal, not even stupidity.
Certainly not sinister or criminal, Henry. Certainly in some cases there are compelling reasons for using a special gauge. For example, in a street railways that serves a specific area and will never connect with any other area.
But in the early days of railroading many companies wanted to avoid connections. They felt wit would reduce their profits. And local governments often felt the same way. If two railroads came to town each with a station in a different part of town that generated a lot of business moving freight from one road to the other and also carrying passengers between stations. It was common for passengers to need a night's lodging which meant even more business. But when the Civil War began this lack of connectivity caused problems for the war effort. In some cases the governments, both north and south, caused connections to be built.
Ultimately American railroads did all adopt a uniform gauge. I think the fact that they did so does show the uniform gauge was the wiser way to go.
PS. Certainly it can be argued that the current standard, 4 feet 8 1/2 inches, isn't the ideal and a somewhat wider gauge would be an improvement. Some also argue that the qwerty keyboard isn't ideal and there is a better one. But then we run into the cultural problem of having do re-do everything we have done. I don't know the answer to that.
John WR PS. Certainly it can be argued that the current standard, 4 feet 6 1/2 inches,
PS. Certainly it can be argued that the current standard, 4 feet 6 1/2 inches,
I hope that's not the standard! Otherwise our stuff is 2 inches too wide..
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
Make that 4 feet 8 1/2 inches, Zugmann.
I've been a little tired these days. I've been watching the Hell Gate Bridge, waiting for it to open.
John WR Make that 4 feet 8 1/2 inches, Zugmann. I've been a little tired these days. I've been watching the Hell Gate Bridge, waiting for it to open. John
Just giving you a little prod...
What happens when Hell Gate Bridge opens? I've watched a couple shows that had portals to/from hell open... never is good.
zugmann John WR Make that 4 feet 8 1/2 inches, Zugmann. I've been a little tired these days. I've been watching the Hell Gate Bridge, waiting for it to open. John Just giving you a little prod... What happens when Hell Gate Bridge opens? I've watched a couple shows that had portals to/from hell open... never is good.
I just thought of a New York joke...
"Standard gauge" became standardized by Federal fiat when the Congress decreed that the UP/CP had to build to the standards of the Baltimore and Ohio in 1862. At the same time, the Army was re-gauging captured rail lines in the South so they could be used by Yankee rolling stock.
And then there was the three meter gauge system proposed by Der Fuhrer. He got distracted by other things - like losing WWII - and it was never built.
I once Googled railroad track gauges and was rewarded with a seven page table running from 7.5 inch garden railways to some preposterously wide gauge for a planned (some years ago) Chinese ship elevator. When I tried the link just now it sent me to a Russian-language commercial site.
Chuck
eagle1030 I just thought of a New York joke...
Is the punchline New Jersey?
Hey! Watch that Jersey stuff! I'm FROM New Jersey! Well OK, I bailed 25 years ago but unless you're in the "family", so to speak...
zugmannWhat happens when Hell Gate Bridge opens? I've watched a couple shows that had portals to/from hell open... never is good.
It's like Charlie Brown says. You've got to be sincere. But if you are sincere and wait the Hell Gate Bridge will open. I know it will.
tomikawaTT"Standard gauge" became standardized by Federal fiat when the Congress decreed that the UP/CP had to build to the standards of the Baltimore and Ohio in 1862.
Certainly the decision that the Union Pacific and the Central Pacific should use standard gauge is important to US railroads. What strikes me is that private railroad companies did not see this on their own but had to be bought to it by the United States Government. Still, some railroads resisted. For example, the Erie continued to use a 6 foot gauge until 1880 when the railroad finally saw the light.
John WR zugmannWhat happens when Hell Gate Bridge opens? I've watched a couple shows that had portals to/from hell open... never is good. It's like Charlie Brown says. You've got to be sincere. But if you are sincere and wait the Hell Gate Bridge will open. I know it will.
If you have a big enough ship, or are handy with C4, I bet you could help it to open. Once. As Daffy said (come to think of it, wearing a devil suit): "... I can only do it once."
Evidence says you'll miss a lot of treats and fun otherwise if you wait for it to rise. You needed to say 'rise'...
But think about it: the gate to Hell is only open when traffic can *cross* the Hell Gate Bridge... open to traffic, not open to below ...
And If the last stop on the New Haven was where you got when you went 'to hell in a day coach,' through the Hell Gate Bridge on the way in -- well, you draw the conclusion. And no, the punch line isn't New Jersey. That's purgatory. ;-}
[Don't complain about 'no respect' to me: I lived in Tenafly/Englewood for 38 years, and did not understand what a "Jersey Driver" was before I went to Union, on Rt. 22, after I'd learned to drive...]
Has there been any recent talk about converting the narrow and wide gauges in south america to standard gauge. Have heard that Brazil is building new rail lines for mineral movement.
And Lucy will let Charlie to actually kick the football.
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
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