Boyd This thread is like the Family Circus cartoon where little Billy wandered all over the neighborhood before coming inside of the house. How do I unsubscribe from this thread?
This thread is like the Family Circus cartoon where little Billy wandered all over the neighborhood before coming inside of the house.
How do I unsubscribe from this thread?
Semper Vaporo
Pkgs.
Modeling the "Fargo Area Rapid Transit" in O scale 3 rail.
Boys, as long as the discussions are kept civil I don't think it matters much what direction they go in. The Forum strikes me as just a modern version of sitting around the pot-bellied stove in the dee-po, smokin' cigars, drinkin' coffee, or maybe a bit of the hard stuff if no-ones lookin', and solving all the worlds problems with our cumulative wisdom.
It's fun. And there's nothing wrong with that.
OvermodPlease tell me you understand the difference.
Yes, Bob, I certainly do understand the difference between sharpening a lawn mower blade and using that or any other topic as a gateway to an inappropriate political comment. Also, we are invited to this forum and I think that all of use here should act like the guests we are. I'll save further discussion of inclined planes for another thread.
John
John WR I mean if I decide to talk about sharpening my lawn mower and no step is taken to prevent that can't I argue that I'm not violating any rule because the discussion has not in fact been locked?
Talking about sharpening a lawn mower would not be a violation of Forum policy, even though it's off-topic for a railroad list. Talking about how the Obama administration would be defying American traditional values by making mower-blade sharpening an environmental no-no would be. So would saying that Soviet mower blade manufacture irresponsibly damaged their environment, because their political system was frequently insensitive to human needs. Please tell me you understand the difference.
Kalmbach decided, and I cannot fault them on the decision, that political wrangling and trolling would be grounds for moderation and locking. Mr. Wimberly, when he first started asserting the 'great power' of modac, was a bit enthusiastic about wielding mod power for 'off-topic' discussions even within the context of thread drift. He has since come to what I consider a more sensible attitude, where only violations of civility or stated policy bring down the boom. But just as I would caution my neighbor not to touch the powerline ground when lightning storms are known to be near, I would recommend that posters stay away from the 'proscribed' sort of commenting even in the absence of actual locking. Very often in this forum the 'locking' takes place without advance warning, and with little if any right of 'appeal' to get the lock reconsidered. I would hate to see the discussion 'short-routed' for so little reason.
BTW: I find the discussion interesting, and hope it continues. At some point it might make sense to start a new thread with the 'inclined planes vs. adhesion' sort of topic, as that might bring people into the discussion who have no interest in the original topic. But I would be the last person here to actually mandate that...
Bob,
I have to agree with you that this thread has more than wandered from the original title and post. And I confess that I am one of the offenders. After all, using inclined planes on canals has nothing to do with changes in track gauges. Canals have nothing to do with railroads.
But one of the problems of external discipline is that you don't have to bother with self discipline. I mean if I decide to talk about sharpening my lawn mower and no step is taken to prevent that can't I argue that I'm not violating any rule because the discussion has not in fact been locked?
But I will spare you such discussions. In a perfect world things would operate as you want and as you say they should. But the world is not yet perfect. Finally, nothing I say is intended as a criticism of the administration of this forum. I will try to stick to the subject better than I have been and I hope you have some better days.
John WR OvermodIn my opinion, this is jumping the shark for a tech discussion -- in precisely the way the Forum rules deprecate. Bob, If we a going to talk about a ship elevator that is needed only because the river the ships used to travel on was damned to generate electricity then it seems to me the impact of the new enormous lake on the ecology is not really out of bounds. On the other hand, I personally don't have anything to add to the subject. John
OvermodIn my opinion, this is jumping the shark for a tech discussion -- in precisely the way the Forum rules deprecate.
If we a going to talk about a ship elevator that is needed only because the river the ships used to travel on was damned to generate electricity then it seems to me the impact of the new enormous lake on the ecology is not really out of bounds. On the other hand, I personally don't have anything to add to the subject.
Yes, but that was not what the comment said. In any case, this was a discussion about gauge changing, which worked itself around to be a discussion of how the idea of planes was still in use in some modern practice. The problem I have is when a political comment is injected into that discussion, contrary to expressed Kalmbach policy on Forum posting.
It is certainly true that the old Soviet Union made all kinds of poor decisions regarding the ecology -- this appears to have been a common problem in the ex-Communist Bloc nations. It is also true that large hydroelectric projects may have heavy ecological consequences. But neither of those things is in the scope of a technical discussion concerning how ships are carried up and down between high and low levels. If there were an economic need for shipping on the Colorado, a ship elevator up the face of Hoover Dam would be no less 'heroic' -- but does that mean we should promptly warp the discussion into why there are awful consequences from building the dam, or whether FDR was evil for renaming the dam for political reasons, or whether Six Companies evilly put profit before worker safety when building the dam, or whatever?
No, the discussion of the effects of a hydroelectric lake IS beyond the scope of a discussion on gauge changing. It was the further introduction of disparaging political viewpoint that was the breaking point for me. I might make just the same argument if someone started a new post on 'the evils of Communist ecological ruination' or whatever elsewhere on these Forums.
Now -- rightly or wrongly -- I let discussions like those occur on forums and lists that I moderate. I think expressions of free speech are more important than keeping strictly on topic, as long as the subject line correctly expresses the subject material and there is clear flagging of off-topic and 'yakking' posts so that those readers who don't care about extraneous stuff can just hit the delete key. But that is NOT how Kalmbach views things, and I am beginning to sympathize with the Wimberly version of moderation based on how Kalmbach views things ... it is their list, and their policies.
zugmannI think it was given consideration, but the technology (bigger steam locomotives, engineering needs) just weren't there quite yet. 20 years later, yes. But a lot happened in those 20 years of the plane being the way across.
The Pennsylvania Railroad was chartered in 1846 and building began a year later. The Horseshoe curve was completed in 1853 as I recall. And yes, a lot happen between 1826 and 1846. The Erie Canal had opened in 1825 and that was driving all of this. I'm not sure when the Main Line of Public Works was built -- a railroad, a canal, a series of inclined planes and another canal -- but the PRR replaced it.
As far as improvements to technology are concerned, based on what I've read the 4-4-0 American locomotive came by the end of the 1830's. There were technical improvements but I have not read that it increased in size and weight all that much by 1860. On the other hand, locomotive technology is not a strong point with me. You probably know more about it than I do.
What does strike me is that the Horseshoe curve was built by men with picks, shovels and wheelbarrows. These kinds of tools had not changed a lot for a very long time.
CSSHEGEWISCHOf course the fact that much of the former Soviet Union is an environmental disaster area indicates what happened when the Russian point of view comes into play. Consider reading "Ecocide", by W. Bruce Lincoln, to find out more about Soviet and Russian environmental actions.
In my opinion, this is jumping the shark for a tech discussion -- in precisely the way the Forum rules deprecate.
Can we please keep this strictly on planes and 'ship elevators'?
John WR DSchmittModern Incline plane/railroad for carrying barges: Certainly these kinds of projects are possible. As I understand it here in the USA we no longer build dams to generate electricity because of environmental concerns. Clearly, the Russians see things differently. John
DSchmittModern Incline plane/railroad for carrying barges:
Certainly these kinds of projects are possible. As I understand it here in the USA we no longer build dams to generate electricity because of environmental concerns. Clearly, the Russians see things differently.
Of course the fact that much of the former Soviet Union is an environmental disaster area indicates what happened when the Russian point of view comes into play. Consider reading "Ecocide", by W. Bruce Lincoln, to find out more about Soviet and Russian environmental actions.
In researching the Pennsylvania "Main Line of Public Works" I found that the Philadelphia and Columbia Railroad also had inclined planes at both ends. However, as soon as it was shown that railroad steam engines could ascend grades, the planes were bypassed with a regular adhesion rail line. I also found out that there was a canal from Phily to the Susquehanna River, but that the Union canal was only half the width of the adopted standard. Nevertheless, they could have hauled on that canal and transloaded to larger barges as easily as the new railroad.
Murphy SidingFair enough. It appeared that you were getting wrapped up in the small details, and not seeing the bigger picture.
It seems to me the guy who really saw the big picture was J. Edgar Thomson when he surveyed the Horseshoe curve. One long inclined plane with a grade that locomotives of his day could run up although sometimes with a little push from a helper.
DSchmittLift built in 1976 and put into operation in 1982
You are right. I confused the date the video was made (2011) with the date the lift was built. Certainly relative to the 1840's either 1976 or 1982 is modern.
John WR Murphy SidingLooks pretty simple to me. Hey Murphy, how about giving me a little break here. I agree the concept of an inclined plane is simple and I agree that it has many practical applications such as, for example, building the pyramids. John
Murphy SidingLooks pretty simple to me.
Hey Murphy, how about giving me a little break here.
I agree the concept of an inclined plane is simple and I agree that it has many practical applications such as, for example, building the pyramids.
Thanks to Chris / CopCarSS for my avatar.
http://www.socialphy.com/posts/computers-technology/8637/Boat-lift-Krasnoyarsk-hydroelectric-power-station-on-the-Yen.html
Lift built in 1976 and put into operation in 1982
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVgql2mkN4c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=XE5zdUXA9Bw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=7KbVWlnsY-w
I tried to sell my two cents worth, but no one would give me a plug nickel for it.
I don't have a leg to stand on.
D. Schmitt
This is a lot more than an incline plane for carrying barges. The Russians at some point built a dam on the Yenisey River in order to create a hydroelectric generating plant. Before the dam was built the river had been used for shipping and there was a desire to continue it for shipping. So a boat lift was created, an inclined plane that lifted boats about 100 meters high over the dam. At the top there is a sort of a turntable so the boats could be positioned correctly. This is all very recent as it was completed in 2011. Now it is possible to have both the hydroelectric plant and shipping too.
tree68They built what they knew how to build.
Larry,
You sum up an axiom about transportation projects and a lot of other things that is still true. After all, any farmer who built his barn into a side of a hill so he could drive his hay into the hayloft and fork it down to his cows understood inclined planes. Since money had to be raised and raised in large quantities using concepts that everyone understood was important in raising the money as well as in building the project. Using ideas everyone understood helped there too.
John WR OvermodOr look at the date on this project. Bob, The inclined plane at Ronquiers is on a canal. It replaces 14 locks and can lift a boat about 220 feet in 50 minutes. Of course originally the inclined planes over the Allegheny Mountains connected canals too. Would a locomotive pulled rail connection over the mountains have been possible when they were build. I don't know if it would have been or if it was even considered. However, the fact that canals were built from Columbia to the mountains and from the mountains to Pittsburgh when the Philadelphia and Columbia railroad existed does suggest to me that a locomotive pulled railroad was not given a lot of consideration. A few years later J. Edgar Thomson replaced the Allegheny Portage Railroad with the Horseshoe Curve. It seems to me that had he come along a few years earlier things might have been different. John
OvermodOr look at the date on this project.
The inclined plane at Ronquiers is on a canal. It replaces 14 locks and can lift a boat about 220 feet in 50 minutes. Of course originally the inclined planes over the Allegheny Mountains connected canals too. Would a locomotive pulled rail connection over the mountains have been possible when they were build. I don't know if it would have been or if it was even considered. However, the fact that canals were built from Columbia to the mountains and from the mountains to Pittsburgh when the Philadelphia and Columbia railroad existed does suggest to me that a locomotive pulled railroad was not given a lot of consideration.
A few years later J. Edgar Thomson replaced the Allegheny Portage Railroad with the Horseshoe Curve. It seems to me that had he come along a few years earlier things might have been different.
I think it was given consideration, but the technology (bigger steam locomotives, engineering needs) just weren't there quite yet. 20 years later, yes. But a lot happened in those 20 years of the plane being the way across.
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
John WR Zugmann, PS. Certainly using draft animals to carry goods from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia was both expensive and time consuming. But I understand the real issue here was competition from the Erie Canal. It was not until the Erie Canal began drawing away much of their business that the Philadelphia business community began to look for a better way to haul freight from Pittsburgh to their own city. John
Zugmann, PS. Certainly using draft animals to carry goods from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia was both expensive and time consuming. But I understand the real issue here was competition from the Erie Canal. It was not until the Erie Canal began drawing away much of their business that the Philadelphia business community began to look for a better way to haul freight from Pittsburgh to their own city.
Plus the C&O canal was being built to the south, so PA had to do something or be left behind.
Goldberg contraption were a complicated way to do something simple that could be done in a variety of simpler methods. It was just done to be complicated. Crossing the Alleghenies at the time the planes were built - well, that was the simplest way that allowed the fastest travel time.
Semper Vaporo To be a Rube Goldberg type of process it would have included: bowling balls that roll down pairs of rods to knock over a stack of dominoes to scare a bird into flying into a net that is attached to an electrical switch that will then turn on a fan to blow bubbles that a cat will swat at and in the process swish its tail to knock over a burning candle that will set fire to a fuse that will set off a firecracker that will scare a monkey into running up a ladder that will tip over when he gets to the top and release a bunch of marbles that will roll down the mountain to fill a bucket attached to a rope that will then, using a pulley, lift the barge up a short section of track.
To be a Rube Goldberg type of process it would have included: bowling balls that roll down pairs of rods to knock over a stack of dominoes to scare a bird into flying into a net that is attached to an electrical switch that will then turn on a fan to blow bubbles that a cat will swat at and in the process swish its tail to knock over a burning candle that will set fire to a fuse that will set off a firecracker that will scare a monkey into running up a ladder that will tip over when he gets to the top and release a bunch of marbles that will roll down the mountain to fill a bucket attached to a rope that will then, using a pulley, lift the barge up a short section of track.
Semper,
You are defining "Rube Goldberg contraption" more literally than I intended. All I meant to suggest is that using inclined planes to cross a mountain seems to be a complicated way of doing something that might be done more simply.
After reading your post and other posts as well as my recent hike I've thought a lot more about the subject. If I were in your shoes my question to me would be: "John, what makes you think that in the first half of the 19th century crossing the Allegheny mountains was easy? If it was so easy why, before the Erie Canal, had people gone to such great expense using draft animals? Simply because we today don't use incline planes does not mean it made no sense then. For example, we no longer use steam locomotives but no one would argue they made no sense in the 1840's and 50.'s.
The best answer I could give to such a question is that given the problem and the technology of the day this kind of contraption was the best solution available, Rube Goldberg or not.
Firelock76The Jersey Central operated the Ashley Planes in Pennsylvania until the late '40s hauling coal hopper cars "up-up-up from the Valley of Anthracite" as shown in the the promotional film "Big Little Railroad".
The Ashley Planes are a fascinating example of early 19th century technology for moving freight. They were built about 1840 by the Lehigh Coal and Navigation Company to gain access to anthracite in Pennsylvania. This was after the Alleghney Portage Railroad had been built. Of course, by the early 1850's J. Edgar Thomson had seen that it was not a really good idea and he had eliminated the Allegheny Portage from the Pennsylvania Railroad. However, as you point out, the LCNC and the successor Lehigh and Susquehanna continued to use it even when the Central Railroad of New Jersey acquired the L&S.
The CNJ was successful up to the depression but then began to have financial problems including bankruptcies. This railroad was all about hauling coal from the mines to the port and when coal declined the railroad declined. New Jersey taxes and competition for the PRR contributed to the decline. Today the Ashley Planes are are the National Register of Historic Places but have nothing to do with railroading.
I did some net surfing to uncover this information. This is the best source I found:
http://www.mtn-top-hs.org/njcrailroadhistory.pdf
PS. You caught me at a time when inclined planes have suddenly entered my life, a subject which heretofore I haven't thought much about. Yesterday I went on a hike along a section of what was the Morris Canal. The Canal included both locks and inclined planes. Among other things our leader took us over the site of the highest inclined plane at Baldwin Avenue, Bloomfield, New Jersey. From about 1820 to about 1900 the canal was an important part of life around here.
zugmannI hope you had the opportunity to visit the Allegheny Portage RR historic site. If you never did, it's worth the visit. NPS did a great job there.
No, I never have vistited the Alegheny Portage Railroad historic site. But I will keep your suggestion in mind.
As I look back to reading Albro Martin's book I think he may have been referring to building a railroad and two canals rather than just the railroad. When the Broad Way of Public Works or Main Line of Public Works (I've seen both names for it) was built railroads were clearly possible and adequate to the task because the Philadelphia and Columbia Railroad was actually used. So perhaps Martin refers to using a railroad and two canals rather than the Allegheny Portage Railroad.
One thing is very clear: A lock canal over the Alleghenies was not considered.
Just an aside here: The Jersey Central operated the Ashley Planes in Pennsylvania until the late '40s hauling coal hopper cars "up-up-up from the Valley of Anthracite" as shown in the the promotional film "Big Little Railroad".
Not having purchased any new locomotives since 1930 the Jersey Central was considering buying "Challenger" type steam locomotives in the immediate post-war years. They went with EMD F-3's instead. The pulling power of the F-3's are what finally caused the closure of the Planes.
As impressive as the incline carriage was, I was blown away by the incline plane turntable.
Modern Incline plane/railroad for carrying barges:
http://englishrussia.com/2011/08/09/the-job-of-vessel-carrying/#more-63002
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