I know why they were high in the era of brakemen running along tops of cars applying/releasing the brakes. But after we got the airbrakes, why were handbrake wheels still kept close to the roof line? Was it for the brakemen to better be in a position for handsignals to be given to them in the days of pre-radio?
Then there were the high handbrakes that were kept high on hopper cars rebuilt in the 1990s... that really puzzles me. Too expensive to relocate, I guess.
Zug
(who is glad to have a brakestick for those few times one of those things wonder his way)
It's been fun. But it isn't much fun anymore. Signing off for now.
The opinions expressed here represent my own and not those of my employer, any other railroad, company, or person.t fun any
This is a guess from a non-railroader and probably is wrong.
I'm guessing during a switching move, as a brakeman hangs off the ladder with his hands around head level, the handbrake wheel would be in a convenient location for the brakeman to access in an emergency.
Again, just my guess.
Zug,
Both of your guesses were correct.
Pre radio still required passing hand signals, which required riding roof tops, so the brake wheel was pretty convenient there.
As for after rebuilds, most of the older boxcar and covered hoppers were only getting that one rebuild anyway, so why spend the time and money relocating the brake wheel.
We still get a few of the older two bay hoppers in here, lettered for CSX with the high brake wheel, they are for the most part on their last, very last legs.
Our car department is allowed to repair the brake ratchet, replace the chain and such, but if the bracket and such is damaged in a cornering or accident, they have to relocate the wheel down low, where we are used to it.
23 17 46 11
They left the brakes high for the hump riders. In the pre-Westinghouse era, the handbrakes were placed high for the convenience of brakemen riding the car tops. But this need to control hand brakes for braking did not end with the conversion to automatic air brakes. The manual braking continued with hump yards prior to the advent of power retarders, and also manual braking was required in the downhill yards used for gravity switching.
Bucyrus They left the brakes high for the hump riders. In the pre-Westinghouse era, the handbrakes were placed high for the convenience of brakemen riding the car tops. But this need to control hand brakes for braking did not end with the conversion to automatic air brakes. The manual braking continued with hump yards prior to the advent of power retarders, and also manual braking was required in the downhill yards used for gravity switching.
I'm quite aware of that, but why would the brakes need to be high?
The brakes would have needed to be high for the same reason they were high in the pre-air brake era. In a rider yard, if the rider had more than a couple loads, he had to ride the cars and move from one brake to another while traversing the running boards. If the brakes were low, he would have had to drop down the ladder to get the brake, and then climb back up to the running board to get to the next brake.
Bucyrus The brakes would have needed to be high for the same reason they were high in the pre-air brake era. In a rider yard, if the rider had more than a couple loads, he had to ride the cars and move from one brake to another while traversing the running boards. If the brakes were low, he would have had to drop down the ladder to get the brake, and then climb back up to the running board to get to the next brake.
Well, I work with a guy that started with the railroad by riding cars down the hump. And you are not describing how he told me it was done.
What did I describe that was in conflict with what you were told?
Bucyrus What did I describe that was in conflict with what you were told?
That's ok, I think my question was already answered by others.
zugmann Bucyrus What did I describe that was in conflict with what you were told?That's ok, I think my question was already answered by others.
Well I am just curious as to why you would reject my answer.
I have never worked in a rider hump yard, so I do not know how many cars they would send over the hump. But in downhill gravity yards, it was common to let 6-10 cars go with one rider, and he might ride over a half mile or more while controlling the speed to prevent stalling or losing control. This might require setting several brakes, tightening some, releasing a few, and re-setting some.
Passing signs was the other main reason to go high, but that usually did not involve the use of the hand brakes.
zugmann Bucyrus They left the brakes high for the hump riders. In the pre-Westinghouse era, the handbrakes were placed high for the convenience of brakemen riding the car tops. But this need to control hand brakes for braking did not end with the conversion to automatic air brakes. The manual braking continued with hump yards prior to the advent of power retarders, and also manual braking was required in the downhill yards used for gravity switching. I'm quite aware of that, but why would the brakes need to be high?
Remember that this almost by definition was in the days before 'roofwalks' (there's another jargon term!) became illegal. A hump rider isn't going to get from car to car any other way than across from walk to walk -- what would you have him do, swing like an ape from ladder to ladder and then use suction cups or something to work back along the car? -- and if the brake wheels are ANYWHERE but at the top... how is he going to reach them from the top? Lie down and bend over the side? Go to the side of what is probably a pitching, rolling car, go down the ladder, and try to work the brake one-handed as he clings on? (And then have to figure out what to do with the brake club when he needs his hand back to climb safely up the ladder again...)
That crap would get old, really quick.
Once the roofwalks were gone, there was no way that long rider cuts could be braked from more than one place. In that circumstance you want the wheel where it can easily be accessed from the step or wherever the poor rider is hanging, and that certainly would be lower rather than higher.
edblysardOur car department is allowed to repair the brake ratchet, replace the chain and such, but if the bracket and such is damaged in a cornering or accident, they have to relocate the wheel down low, where we are used to it.
That pretty much covers it.
When the change from "K" brakes to "AB" brakes was mandated in 1935 for interchange service, a company called Ajax made a kit for converting high brake wheels to end mounted brake wheels. In CP's case, at some point they decided that they had reequipped enough cars with "AB" brakes for interchange service, and the plan to reequip cars with lower mounted brake wheels ended at the same time. An amazing number of CP cars ended their service in the 1960's still with "K" brakes.
In the case of the hopper cars you mentioned, the owner likely didn't want to pay for the conversion kit. Another example of cost trumping operational convenience/efficiency.
Bruce
So shovel the coal, let this rattler roll.
"A Train is a Place Going Somewhere" CP Rail Public Timetable
"O. S. Irricana"
. . . __ . ______
Roof running boards were used routinely right up until they were banned. The brake wheels were left at the top because it was more common to access the brake wheel from the top than from the ground. I am not sure when hump yards without power retarders disappeared, but inclined gravity switching yards were probably generally in widespread use long after the rider hump yards disappeared.
I know of two inclined rider yards around here that operated right up into the late 1960s. Every job used a few people who were called for the job as “riders,” and that is all they did.
The job was basically the same as how brakemen controlled trains in the 1880s, except riders controlling the speed of cuts in a rider yard had no engine connected. But the speed of the cars had to be managed. You could not just let them roll free into tracks with standing cars expected to stop them, as is the case with kicking cars in a flat yard. In an inclined yard, the cars might reach 40 mph if hand brakes were not applied.
BucyrusEvery job used a few people who were called for the job as “riders,” and that is all they did.
But as far as I ever heard or read the cuts of cars were small enough that the rider rode one car, and he only had to operate the brakes of the car he was on the control the speed of the entire cut.
Overmod something to work back along the car? -- and if the brake wheels are ANYWHERE but at the top... how is he going to reach them from the top? Lie down and bend over the side? Go to the side of what is probably a pitching, rolling car, go down the ladder, and try to work the brake one-handed as he clings on? (And then have to figure out what to do with the brake club when he needs his hand back to climb safely up the ladder again...) That crap would get old, really quick.
something to work back along the car? -- and if the brake wheels are ANYWHERE but at the top... how is he going to reach them from the top? Lie down and bend over the side? Go to the side of what is probably a pitching, rolling car, go down the ladder, and try to work the brake one-handed as he clings on? (And then have to figure out what to do with the brake club when he needs his hand back to climb safely up the ladder again...)
that would fine for the vertical or staff braked on the roof, but what about the more modern style located on the ends, near the top (like many current hoppers)? You're not putting them on from the tops of a car, unless you are hanging over or lying down.
If you are controling a hopper, or cut of hoppers, by hand brake, you can see where the "spot" is from a high brake on the end of a car. Can't see if you're on a low brake between cars.
zugmannOvermodsomething to work back along the car? -- and if the brake wheels are ANYWHERE but at the top... how is he going to reach them from the top? Lie down and bend over the side? Go to the side of what is probably a pitching, rolling car, go down the ladder, and try to work the brake one-handed as he clings on? (And then have to figure out what to do with the brake club when he needs his hand back to climb safely up the ladder again...) That crap would get old, really quick. that would fine for the vertical or staff braked on the roof, but what about the more modern style located on the ends, near the top (like many current hoppers)? You're not putting them on from the tops of a car, unless you are hanging over or lying down.
Overmodsomething to work back along the car? -- and if the brake wheels are ANYWHERE but at the top... how is he going to reach them from the top? Lie down and bend over the side? Go to the side of what is probably a pitching, rolling car, go down the ladder, and try to work the brake one-handed as he clings on? (And then have to figure out what to do with the brake club when he needs his hand back to climb safely up the ladder again...) That crap would get old, really quick.
That is true. You bring up a good point that there have actually been three standardized positions of hand brakes: The staff brake, the end brake high, and the end brake low.
Maybe the end brake high was a compromise between the ending of the full time role of the manual brake brakemen, and the need to access brakes from the ground.
The main change from the staff brake to the end brake high was the addition of the gearbox to multiply brake manual brake pressure.
The staff brake with its vertical axis could have been redesigned to add the gearbox without changing to a horizontal axis, so the gearbox alone does not explain why they changed the axis direction.
Maybe the reason they got rid of the vertical axis was to make it a little easier to get to from the ground. And yet, they did not compromise further by moving it all the way to the ground-- and limiting the compromise thus was a concession to the fact that access from the top was still often required.
This short documentary (about 30 minutes) was made for the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen back in the late 1960s. There are many scenes of train and yard men at work, including working hand brakes. It's called "Railroad Man" and appears in a DVD compilation, "Tracks Across America" (or something like that) so some of you may have already seen this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrPuftx2ES4
Modern safety people would have a coronary seeing how things used to be.
Jeff
jeffhergert This short documentary (about 30 minutes) was made for the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen back in the late 1960s. There are many scenes of train and yard men at work, including working hand brakes. It's called "Railroad Man" and appears in a DVD compilation, "Tracks Across America" (or something like that) so some of you may have already seen this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MrPuftx2ES4 Modern safety people would have a coronary seeing how things used to be. Jeff
I don't know which is more depressing... how much stuff has changed, or how much it has stayed the same.
zugmannI don't know which is more depressing... how much stuff has changed, or how much it has stayed the same.
+1
Even though most of the equipment and the accents are American, what I saw in the film is more like I think of railroading than what I actually see today. In a way what hasn't changed is what keeps me interested in railroading today, but of course change is inevitable, even if it is glacial at times.
There are many little things I could comment on, but the one that really caught my eye was the scene where the logs sticking out from the side of the car where being broken off by the passing train. Dad was absolutely insistent that we watch out for dragging loads or tie downs whenever we were outside the station watching a train go by. In a strange way it is why even with a camera in hand, I can't take pictures of trains because I am always looking down the track to see what is coming next.
Those burning passenger coaches were a heatbreaker.
Jeff, thanks for the link to the film.
BTW, I was able to pause the film at the right instant to see it was produced by the BRT in 1967.
About 15 minutes in is a demonstration on setting hand brakes....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=BqpayZ2JqlU
Never too old to have a happy childhood!
In the video, I see a few sequences of riders controlling single cars and cuts of 2-3 cars. In that running board era, say that the railroads limited cuts to a small number of cars, so they could be controlled from just one brake. That would eliminate the need to move from one brake to another, and that in turn would eliminate the need for the brake to be at the running board elevation.
So say then that they moved the brakes to the low position. It only raises this one question: When operating the brake from the low position on the trailing end of moving cars, would it work to have the switchman look around the end of the car to see ahead?
It sure seems like lowering the brakes would have been an attractive option for railroads because there must have been a lot of accidents involving falls when using the high handbrakes.
Staff brakes remained after the advent of air brakes since air brakes can fail (and have over the years, with some serious disasters resulting), Most common cause is locomotive engineers depleting the brake system by making a brake application, then a release, then making another application without sufficient recharge time. For example: Engineer makes a 10 psi reduction, then makes a release. If another application is needed immediately afterward it needs to be at least 5 psi greater than the initial reduction for the brakes to apply; so now a 15 psi reduction is needed (but it doesn't give a 15 psi brake application, only a 5 psi application). There is a limit though; for a 90 psi trainline pressure a 26 psi total reduction will equalize pressure in trainline, brake reservoirs and brake cylinders at 64 psi. No more service braking pressure is available, although some additional braking is available by making an emergency application.
Because of the possibility of runaways, railroads with steep grades (ATSF on Cajon Pass, for example) required swing brakemen to ride car tops on downgrade runs, with the practice continuing well into the 20th Century.
Not all freight cars were equipped with air brakes at one time; the transition took a number of years. Trains were operated with a mixture of cars, some with air, others without. Practice was to make up trains with air braked cars on the head end with the non-air cars on the rear. There might not be enough air cars to provide sufficient braking so brakemen needed to apply brakes on the non-air cars to provide additional braking.
Of course, hand brakes were used (as others have mentioned) in switching operations, and staff brakes were convenient to use on multiple-car cuts.
Two factors drove the development of end-mounted hand brakes: weight and clearances. The staff brake (standardized as the "Plate A" brake, so named for the drawing referred to under the Safety Appliance Act) had been adequate for light cars but did not develop enough braking power for the 40- and 50-ton cars coming into use during the early 20th century. Use of brake clubs helped apply additional force, but clubs were inherently unsafe because the brakeman did not have a grip on any part of the actual car while using the club. Geared hand brakes used a gear reduction which developed enough braking force to permit one-hand operation, with the other hand free to maintain a secure grip on the car.
The staff brake, because it projected above the top of the car, wasted space in the clearance diagram that would otherwise be available for a taller car. An end mounted brake would permit larger cars that still fit in standard clearances. Also, staff brakes on open top cars were vulnerable to damage from shifting loads and loading machinery (e.g. clam buckets).
The location of the end-mounted hand brakes was specified by the ICC; the high location permitted a user to see over the top of the cars, and was reasonably accessible from the running board for someone traveling from car to car.
The introduction of high cube boxcars and cushion underframes in the 1960s caused the next change in hand brake location. Although the first 86' high cube boxes had full running boards and high brakes, it was soon found that this was not safe: anyone standing on top of the car was in more danger of encountering overhead obstructions, and climbing up and down the taller ladders to apply or release the hand brake was more dangerous (and tiring) than on a standard height car. Cushion underframes increased the spacing between cars; crossing from running board to running board required a several-foot leap.
In 1966 the ICC modified the Safety Appliance Act to eliminate running boards (except where needed to access the top of car; covered hoppers for example). Without running boards there was no need for high brakes so the hand brake location was lowered for most types of cars. Open top cars were still allowed to have high mounted hand brakes as many loading operations used someone operating the brake to control the movement of the car while being loaded; the high brake permitted observation of the loading process.
The 1966 changes first applied to new or rebuilt cars; older cars were to have running boards removed by a specified date (extended several times) but there was no requirement to lower handbrakes.
Kurt Hayek
Kurt,
Thanks for your input. You bring up some excellent points and shed a lot of light on the subject. I was kind of wondering if hand brakes were left high in the airbrake era as a backup system in case of an airbrake failure, as you point out.
Here is an account of a train wreck in the transition era between hand brakes and air brakes. It is from the Railroad Gazette monthly tally of train accidents in the U.S.:
November 1896
1st, 1 a.m., on Baltimore & Ohio, at Philson, Pa., eastbound freight train 74 descending a steep grade became uncontrollable and collided with westbound freight No. 95, making a very bad wreck, four engines and 56 loaded cars being wrecked. Two trainmen were injured and 3 tramps were killed and 4 injured. The first 17 cars of the train had air-brakes, and the trainmen say that they were properly coupled and tested at Sand Patch, but on passing the summit the engineman discovered, though too late, that the valve was closed between the tender and the first car. The trainmen tell a thrilling story of this wreck.
The train left Sand Patch shortly after midnight. Sixteen cars next to the engine were equipped with air-brakes. Before starting into the tunnel, at the summit, which is a mile in length, the hand-brakes on three cars on the rear end were set. Two more were set after the brakemen noticed that the train was getting beyond control. By the time the east end of the tunnel had been reached, the heavily loaded cars had attained such a frightful velocity that it was impossible to check their speed on the wet rails.
The brakemen and Conductor Harbaugh clung to the tops of the cars, making their way toward the rear end on all fours. Seeing that it was impossible to save the train, Flagman Geiger cut off the caboose two miles west of Bowman. Conductor Harbaugh and Brakeman Mickey uncoupled the three cars next to the caboose and stopped them. Brakeman Cornell stuck to his post on the front end of the train until the light in his lantern went out. Then he went back over the train with Fireman Owens. The collision came before they had gone two car lengths.
Engineer Zane hung to the steps of his engine for four miles. He said after the wreck that he had fully made up his mind to jump at Bowman Station, but his heart failed him, and he climbed back into the cab, resigned to meet what he thought was certain death. Bowman was the passing point for train 74 with westbound train 95. Engineer Zane knew that he was sure to crash into the ponderous engine hauling No. 95 up the mountain within a few seconds, and he hung to the whistle-lever until he saw the glimmer of its headlight. He scrambled over the tender and reached the first boxcar before the two engines came together. He knew nothing after this until Friday morning. Brakeman Cornell and Fireman Owens were likewise hurled from the top of a car over a hill to the left of the track. Both were severely cut and bruised, but managed to get among the wrecked cars first and help out the injured.
The force of the collision sent the eastbound engine plowing through the westbound train a distance of 300 yards. The wreckage was piled into a miniature mountain, and the track for 300 yards was torn as if dynamite had been exploded every foot of the way.
Engineer Kauffman of No. 95, jumped as soon as he saw the headlight of the other engine.
…Immediately following the collision was an explosion. Several cars on train 74 were loaded with flour. The supposition is that is was the flour dust that exploded. The report awoke the residents of Philson Station and sent up a cloud of milky whiteness.
The cries of the injured tramps attracted the attention of the trainmen as soon as they regained their presence of mind, and the work of rescue began. A large number of these gentry were beating their way over the mountain on train 74. There were about fifteen of them in a boxcar about the middle of the train.
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