History
The official website of the City of Perris has information about the railroad aspects of its history. Therein, six stopping through passenger trains and two freights are mentioned.
LINK: Brief Railroad Early History about Perris
When Metrolink trains finally come to Perris, the commuter train numbers may rival that history!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
Did “Riverside Hills” Fall Into the Ocean?
On April 24, 2013 the judge in the lawsuit gave Riverside County Transportation Commission (RCTC) five days to respond. So far, way beyond the time allotted, nothing has surfaced in the press. K.P. is scheduled to be in that area tomorrow, Monday, May 13, and expects the roadways therein to be still present and not in the ocean.
The above Salton Sea photo shot November 24, 2012 along Union Pacific’s Sunset Route .
But, if found otherwise, this contributor will let everyone know …
Visiting the PVL I-215 Corridor
Part “A” (of A-D)
On Monday, May 13, 2013 K.P. had a couple of opportunities to check out the line during some free times … and the following and subsequent Parts are a sharing of the findings.
The Perris Valley Line Environmental Impact Report (EIR) diagrams a station stop (and parking lot) just south of Alessandro Blvd. (the below photo’s bridge) that intersects the paralleling north-south I-215 Freeway.
The higher ground camera location is believed to be where the future station parking lot will be located, presumably with bridging over a concrete waterway, which bridge will allow access to the track.
As can be seen above, the terrain is not exactly flat, so putting a station stop at this location will have its design challenges.
The EIR identifies the station stop as the Moreno Valley / March Field Station.
Continued in Part B
Part “B” (of A-D)
A southward view of the Alessandro Blvd area stop:
As seen on the lower left of the above photo, the presence of water piping kind of gives the area perspective, the parking lot being higher than the rail line.
One thing that strikes a person visiting the area is the tremendous amount of construction taking place along I-215. The PVL will be somewhere in the below photo’s background right.
At Van Buren Blvd. a new, wider overpass is being constructed over the freeway and tracks, with very little opportunity to photograph the site. However, this time there was a minor traffic jam thereat, which afforded while stopped the below quick northward grab shot.
Continued in Part C
Part “C” (of A-D)
In Perris proper … Forumists will undoubtedly remember this reshown photo from San Jacinto Ave., looking northward.
Those parked rail well cars have been moved northward a slight bit, and now are not in the scene.
What looks like new apartments are being built next to the future PVL.
Above, at photo time, Perris had a lot of traffic detouring and construction here and there, and the area was very traffic jam-like.
Continued in Part D
Part “D” (of A-D)
As the line heads southward, after the downtown Perris stop, the line curves southeastward and crosses “D” Street. Very nearby Mercado Park is being rebuilt, with attractive play equipment and big yellow flower and multi-color butterfly type structures now present.
Those at the forum that have kids or grandkids, when the Perris Valley Line is in operation and park construction is complete, the park would give a railbuff a reason to take the family on a train ride to Perris, the ‘family’ visiting the park with the railfan having one eye on the tracks …
This will conclude this short series.
There is also the trolley museum in Perris which would be interesting to any railfan.
ccltrains There is also the trolley museum in Perris which would be interesting to any railfan.
Ahem, Railway Museum - OERM has collection of steam, diesel and various RR cars in addition to the collection of trolley and interurban equipment.
- Erik OERM member since 1989
Erik-
Thanks for the update on the OERM. Unfortunately I have never been there but plan to go later this year. Our granddaughter is in the Navy and has been transferred to San Diego and we definately plan to visit her and OERM.
Oh boy trouble in paradise --- I mean Perris valley.
http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/perris/perris-headlines-index/20130516-perris-valley-line-judge-tosses-projects-environmental-impact-report.ece?fb_comment_id=fbc_530292643678759_5822823_530352250339465#f140f1fe95fc2a5
Another pro Green Weanie at work. Some of these judges are pro-green and biased from the get go. A judge in Banning ruled on a over pass to be built in Victorville, Ca. effectively killing the project. The greenies know what judges to bring a case before. You got it.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
“Trouble in Paradise”
Forum contributor blue streak 1 a few days ago alerted us to the news in Riverside’s “Press Enterprise” newspaper (and website) about the Judge’s ruling on the Friends of Riverside Hills vs. Riverside County Transportation Commission (RCTC) lawsuit concerning the Perris Valley Line. Thanks, blue streak 1, for alerting all of us about the news. Your post-mention about “Trouble in Paradise” was a most interesting phraseology.
Residential walling is on left.
In the newspaper’s downloadable copy of the actual ruling, which I guess RCTC has 90 days to respond to, the Judge gave some very thought provoking (and extensively explained) ruling details. It seems the Judge has allowed the parties involved leeway in making the Environmental Impact Report (EIR) acceptable to both parties.
In this reviewer’s opinion, if the EIR is corrected to the Friends’ satisfaction, the “Petitioner” here, it could become a model for others to use. Of course, if BNSF gets involved more than they have been (they are listed as a “Real Party of Interest”), and brings the matter to the Federal courts, in my opinion the result could send absolute shockwaves into many environmental groups. What Federal court would rule against national security?
One point of interest to railfans was about trespassing, and the Judge’s siding with Friends. She cited the many school children that walk the trail that crosses the track. It will be interesting how RCTC (and Metrolink) addresses that issue. Obviously RCTC is not quite as adept as Class 1 railroads in dealing with trespassers (and railfans that have not caught on since 9-11). In my opinion, Friends could be the recipient of anger if the owner of the track (Southern California Regional Rail Authority commonly known Metrolink) simply puts up a somewhat costly barbed wire fence … unless that is prohibited by city ordinance. And / or simply stationing a Special Agent(s) at the trespassing site for a few days! Word WOULD spread quickly in that neighborhood! However, It is my understanding as a property owner that “No Trespassing” signs are necessary to legally keep trespassers off a property.
It should be enlightening to see how the parties involved respond, and if the EIR will be completely redone or merely fixed to the Friend’s satisfaction. RCTC could, on the other hand, just scrap the whole project. That is very, very unlikely, as almost a quarter of a billion dollars being pumped into the area is involved, and that kind of money is NOT mere child’s play money …
Conniving!
This seems to have gotten by us, but the Press-Enterprise of May 23, 2013 had a news clip about the Riverside County Transportation Commission’s current efforts.
LINK: The News Clip
K.P., thanks for the updates on this line. I have not been out that way for several years and did not realize that some preliminary construction had begun.
I rode the OERM-to-Highgrove [junction with the transcon] segment about 10 years ago on an OERM chartered rare mileage train. That BNSF track was rough; our speed was maybe 10 mph (but closer to 25 mph on the museum's track!). At the time, they mentioned that one of the freight customers along the route received hopper cars of plastic pellets to be transformed into sprinkler pipe. Also, the UP diamond was still in place back then.
Meanwhile, back in the day, when the highway was US 395...I also recall seeing a spur that crossed the highway to what was then March Air Force Base. I never saw a train on that spur, though.
MP
Opinionville for June, 2013
LINK: Opinion FOR the Friends
LINK: Opinion FOR Metrolink
LINK: Scaling Press-Enterprise Editorial
MP57313 (6-11):
Oh, yes, Highway 395, with stoplights and all!
The March Air Force Base “spur” that you mentioned crossed Highway 395 on TWO legs, i.e., a wye type arrangement, with each leg crossing 395 with its own grade crossing flashers.
I actually saw a Santa Fe local parked on one of those legs once years ago, for an unknown activity.
Outside of that, MP57313, I’m like you, and never really saw a train cross Highway 395 or go by the Base itself.
With the advent of I-215 (which converted Highway 395 to Interstate standards), that wye arrangement went bye-bye, and it is unknown if it could even be found now, but the below aerials seems to indicate everything from the past in the Cactus Ave. area is all obliterated now with the I-215 overlaying.
LINK: The Old Wye Area
When the Perris Valley Line eventually is built, the last vestiges of the wye, if there are any, surely will go into nonexistence.
Best,
K.P.
The Judge’s Ruling Is Now Being Appealed
From the Press-Enterprise news website:
LINK: The Appeals Story
Area Representative Sends Letter
According to the Press-Enterprise, which seems to lead the news coverage of the Perris Valley Line, an area congressional representative sent a letter to the Federal Transit Administration urging that the appropriated funds be saved during this time of uncertainty and litigation.
LINK: Press-Enterprise Story and Letter
While the above news is dated before the previous post, K.P. just found the material, and is passing it along to the forum.
i meant to post this here but it somehow ended up in the actual forum? sorry
looks like an agreement has been reached with the greenies....to the tune of 3 mil. at least its going to happen finally!
http://blog.pe.com/2013/07/10/perris-rctc-announces-perris-valley-line-settlement/
and
http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/perris/perris-headlines-index/20130710-perris-valley-line-3-million-settlement-reached-with-environmental-group.ece
ElCaminoManT (7-17):
Thanks for the news links. I’ve been watching for such material, but unfortunately and unbelievably “Perris Valley Line” was NOT the magical words to search for. The news material you provided, while about that subject, did not even use those words. Strange case …
I’m curious what $3 million will be spent on in satisfying the environmental group! Maybe a dirt trail grade separation so that trespassers can still trespass and not have to worry about being hit by a train? Would RCTC accept liability if someone stubbed their toe walking underneath the track? It should be interesting to see what actually pacified the ‘Friends’ group.
The Links
Blog: Short material
The clip: Longer news article
One non-user because of living away from the line had an interesting perspective about the Perris Valley Line settlement …
LINK: A Letter to the Editor
Beyond the Perris Valley Line
On Wednesday, July 17, 2013 forum contributor ElCaminoManT started a thread entitled “Back on track!” that conveyed an announcement similar to posts in this thread. His thread very quickly changed directions and several made quite intelligent comments with a historical flare on that new direction.
Since that new direction in that thread is ‘related’ to this thread, K.P. finds it desirable to comment on it herein.
Fred Perris who surveyed the original rail line from San Diego to Barstow (then called Waterman Jct.), I suppose, did quite well except for a stretch between Oceanside and Perris. Years later a cut in the mountains of Cajon Pass on Perris’ line had a massive collapse.
There is no practical route* …
… other than what Fred Perris found that goes through the Lake Elsinore (not shown) and Perris (shown) areas.
In light of the closeness between Oceanside and Perris, I would say it is only a matter of time before someone pushes for rebuilding Fred Perris’ old route. Such would be a boon to the Inland Empire, Riverside, and Perris areas. Two things should be understood in assessing the idea. (1) Surveying is very different today than it was in the 1870’s and 1880’s, and (2) popular highways traverse through near the old route today. So, the concept is not as crazy as it first sounds.
Some parts of the San Diego-Oceanside line’s commuter trains today go 80 M.P.H, even 90 M.P.H. The Perris Valley Line undoubtedly will have comparable run sections. If the powers that be put their minds to it, with newfound technologies and methods, Fred Perris’ general old route might be found very tempting to lay track on, that would be secure from the flooding aspects of the late 1800’s.
Of course, if such a happening did come about, would BNSF insist on trackage rights as it has on the old California Southern route now in the Perris area?
----------
For those interested, ElCaminoManT’s thread that inspired this particular Perris Valley Line Updates single follow-up post can be found at:
http://cs.trains.com/trn/f/111/t/219231.aspx
* The above May 2010 FIRST photo’s area is in the below aerial LINK:
Area of Cool Looking Bridge South of California S.R. 76 & I-15
K. P. Harrier Fred Perris who surveyed the original rail line from San Diego to Barstow (then called Waterman Jct.), I suppose, did quite well except for a stretch between Oceanside and Perris. Years later a cut in the mountains of Cajon Pass on Perris’ line had a massive collapse. There is no practical route* …
The above bridge is the "West Lilac Road" bridge, very familiar to me as I used to live about a mile to the left of the picture. Construction of the bridge and I-15 started early 1977 and the section of I-15 under the bridge was opened in February 1980, bypassing the section of Highway 395 towards the right side of the picture.
The bridge was built at ground level, or a bit more precisely the grade prior to excavation of the cut was where the bridge deck is now, and the cut for the I-15 roadway was excavated after the concrete in the bridge had sufficiently cured. Excavation was still taking place in the spring of 1979 when I bought my house and the previous owner mentioned the cut included a hill about 150' higher than the bridge. Construction crews mentioned that some 24 million cubic yards of material was removed from the cut and used for the fill in the foreground of the picture.
I-15 was designed with a 4% maximum grade along this stretch, the Highway 395 grade was 7%.
My first visit to OERM in Perris took place in December 1976, which was just before construction started - the intersection of SR-76 and US-395 was governed by a traffic light in the middle of farmland.
In light of the closeness between Oceanside and Perris, I would say it is only a matter of time before someone pushes for rebuilding Fred Perris’ old route. Such would be a boon to the Inland Empire, Riverside, and Perris areas. Two things should be understood in assessing the idea. (1) Surveying is very different today than it was in the 1870’s and 1880’s, and (2) popular highways traverse through near the old route today. So, the concept is not as crazy as it first sounds. Some parts of the San Diego-Oceanside line’s commuter trains today go 80 M.P.H, even 90 M.P.H. The Perris Valley Line undoubtedly will have comparable run sections. If the powers that be put their minds to it, with newfound technologies and methods, Fred Perris’ general old route might be found very tempting to lay track on, that would be secure from the flooding aspects of the late 1800’s. Of course, if such a happening did come about, would BNSF insist on trackage rights as it has on the old California Southern route now in the Perris area?
I tend to agree with Mudchicken about problems with rebuilding the Temecula - Oceanside line. There's also a -um- minor detail that much of the ROW between Perris and Elsinore being aprt of the Railroad Canyon Reservoir.
- Erik
Yes the dam and lake are in the way. Two solutions come to mind. The dam will come down some time due to age and or earthquake strength. Or the line from Corona to Elsinore and Fallbrook could be put back in. Rumor that the section from Corona to Elsinore/Temecula will be put back in for Metrolink.
erikem and usmc1401 (Both 7-22):
You both make good points. Interestingly, locating (and finding material on) the old abandoned California Southern right-of-way between Oceanside and Perris has up till now semi-alluded K.P. However, because of your posts, source material has been uncovered, and now that old right-of-way can be researched at length.
It is desirable to now field check the old route, and to that end effort will be made as time permits in the next few months.
It is suspected that the old right-of-way now under water between Lake Elsinore and Perris won’t be a hindrance, believe it or not. On the other hand, a completely different angle of commuter train routing is cursorily perceived as possible. But, all that will take time to evaluate.
Any such routing would also have to come to terms with the U.S.M.C. and Camp Pendleton. Of course, the Santa Fe ran across the base up to Fallbrook until sometime in the 60's or 70's, but there was probably some kind of agreement in place that would have long since expired.
John Timm
The Corps may not be a problem. A large amount of out of service rail remains on the base. The Fallbrook junction wye ends less than a mile from the mainline. A gap without rail is four or five miles long. On the east side of the runway/ airport the rail resumes and heads toward Fallbrook. A large airfield is at Camp Pendelton that most people are unaware of. On the base a museum with Marine Corps vehicles is located in a old warehouse next to the tracks. Surprise a yellow GE 80T locomotive is on display with a ATSF caboose. A flood thirty plus years ago washed out about five miles of track on the base.
The grading for the ROW between Temecula and Oceanside is (or maybe was) visible from I-15, look at the north side of the Santa Margarita river gorge as it exits away from Temecula. The problem is that the line was built too close to the river bottom, the route may be usable by building a bit higher the side of the gorge.
Rebuilding the Corona to Temecula line does make sense, though I would think that much of the ROW has been built over.
looking at google maps, id assume its safe to say that Vandegrift Blvd follows what was once pretty much the ROW? i see the tracks east of the runway, very obvious just past Basilone Rd.
im not sure a line from temecula to o-side would make much sense really. corona - temecula would make sense tho
usmc1401 The Corps may not be a problem. A large amount of out of service rail remains on the base. The Fallbrook junction wye ends less than a mile from the mainline. A gap without rail is four or five miles long. On the east side of the runway/ airport the rail resumes and heads toward Fallbrook. A large airfield is at Camp Pendelton that most people are unaware of. On the base a museum with Marine Corps vehicles is located in a old warehouse next to the tracks. Surprise a yellow GE 80T locomotive is on display with a ATSF caboose. A flood thirty plus years ago washed out about five miles of track on the base.
I was thinking in terms of getting permission to cross the base. Camp Pendleton dates back only to 1942, so the railroad was already there at the time the base was constructed. Reactivating the railroad would likely involve at the very least an easement, especially if it has been officially abandoned and the ROW has become government property. All of this is only speculation on my part.
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