As far as I recall, there is a track connection between OERM and the Perris station, though the last few blocks are on what is now Metrolink trackage. It does look like there is room for a dedicated OERM track to the station, which would also allow the trolley wire to be extended to the station - the electrics are a lot cheaper to run than the diesels or VC #2.
Replies:
Avianwatcher (2-1)
Regarding your February 1, 2013 reply …
Avianwatcher The photos shown of the trolleys were at the ORANGE EMPIRE RAILWAY MUSEUM. oerm.org Various types of power is in operation every weekend and once a month live steam. The plan is to extend the rails to the old Perris station.
The photos shown of the trolleys were at the ORANGE EMPIRE RAILWAY MUSEUM. oerm.org Various types of power is in operation every weekend and once a month live steam. The plan is to extend the rails to the old Perris station.
Thanks for catching that. It is NOT the Orange Empire Trolley Museum, but Railway Museum. A correction has been made on the errant post.
Several weeks ago when first working up a rough draft I caught that error, but was dealing with a few other related topics at the time and thought I had corrected everything, but I guess one draft error got by me. When posting the February 1 post I knew I should have given the draft one final proof reading before posting, but I was almost on remote control at the time …
erikem (2-2):
It looks like there is room for two-tracks to be routed by the old depot, one for OERM trains, the other for Metrolink.
But, where will the Metrolink downtown station stop actually be located at?
If somehow there is a passenger transfer arrangement between the two rail outfits, my gut tells me transferring passengers would have to walk a couple of blocks south to a completely separate OERM stop.
Take care all,
K.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- K.P.’s absolute “theorem” from early, early childhood that he has seen over and over and over again: Those that CAUSE a problem in the first place will act the most violently if questioned or exposed.
A 1960's vintage Perris 7.5' topo shows two tracks on each side of the station (total of four tracks), so historically there would be room - though Perris now has grown "just a wee bit" since then. A Metrolink station would require a fair amount of parking, so I'm not sure where the station would go.
FWIW, my first time at OERM was in 1976 and I've been a member since 1989.
- Erik
K.P., thank you for sharing that awesome pictorial with us.
Some legal updates on the Perris Valley Line from earlier this week:
http://www.pe.com/local-news/riverside-county/perris/perris-headlines-index/20130129-perris-judge-hears-suit-over-planned-metrolink-line.ece
http://blog.pe.com/environment/2013/01/30/metrolink-suit-judge-serious-about-ceqa/
A judge is now hearing the lawsuit over the environmental impact report for the Perris Valley Line.
I hope the judge rules in favor of Metrolink and RCTC. The trains won't have to move so slowly through Box Canyon with Class 4 mainline track.
K. P. HarrierBut, where will the Metrolink downtown station stop actually be located at?
The new platform and adjacent parking are visible just west of the existing tracks, from San Jacinto south to 4th Street (property goes to 6th Street!). Trackage will be rebuilt and relocated closer to the platform, and per their website OERM has a dedicated track 'pocket' for their special event trains - very cool!. Looks like a parallel track will be built to the pocket with room for a Metrolink connection south of 4th Street - don't know what other plans the city has for that plot of land.
BTW the depot was sold by OERM to the City and leased back; it is mostly occupied by the Perris Historical Society's collection.
Another PV line upgrade I noticed while map surfing - there are now two concrete tie supported sidings starting just opposite the March Field Air Museum. Anyone know who / what they are for, at least before the main track presumably is upgraded.
Links to my Google Maps ---> Sunset Route overview, SoCal metro, Yuma sub, Gila sub, SR east of Tucson, BNSF Northern Transcon and Southern Transcon *** Why you should support Ukraine! ***
Thanks for catching that. It is NOT the Orange Empire Trolley Museum, but RAILWAY Museum as you pointed out. A correction has been made on the errant post.
Several weeks ago when first working up a series rough draft I caught that error, but was dealing with a few other related topics at the time and thought I had corrected everything, but I guess one draft error got by. When posting the February 1 post I knew I should have given the draft one final proof reading before posting, but I was almost on remote control at the time …
After your post, MikeF90 posted a great aerial link that shows concrete sidewalks on each side of a trackless strip, the strip presumably for an OERM track.
I am out that way at least once a month, so hopefully I will be able to document that area in photos for the forum.
mvs (2-2):
Thanks so much for the links. They gave a good picture of what is going on controversy-wise.
As far as that lawsuit, while I am not an attorney, it seems out of the court’s jurisdiction, at least in my opinion. The rail line through the area in question is an existing line, and BNSF can run trains at its discretion. One point that was seen was that new, replacement track laying would all be WITHIN the existing right-of-way, so it is unclear what merit anyone would have in their objections. At this point in time, the massive earthmoving confuses me, though.
MikeF90 (2-2):
It is difficult to check out the physical plant on the line, but towards Perris I’ve noticed a bunch of well-cars for Intermodal service that has been parked for some time on a long siding. Long sidings were unheard of on the San Jac in times past.
North of Alessandro Blvd. in the Moreno Valley area, the siding there was passed last Wednesday, and it had some Intermodal cars in it too! ALSO on scene were three big SIX-axle GE units, the south one I believe was BNSF 7504. Never saw that kind of big power on the line before!
A Memo for All …
At the Riverside County Transportation Commission’s (RCTC’s) website, links are provide for the Perris Valley Line Environmental Impact Report. I downloaded two, but only one resulted, so it may be too big for one download and two self-combined in my computer. Diagrams are shown where the stations will be and their layouts. Interesting viewing!
A link is below to the RCTC website downloading page:
EIR Downloading
A Couple of Onsite Follow-Ups
Perris, CA
Part A (of A-D)
In the recent past, it was pointed out in this thread by erikem and MikeF90 (both 2-2) about a connection between the Perris Valley Line and the Orange Empire Railway Museum (OERM), Mike even linking an aerial of a cement platform opening for a future OERM track.
On Wednesday, February 13, 2013, K.P. had opportunity to pass that area, and two specific areas in Perris were focused on.
First, the OERM reserved platform area in downtown Perris.
A northward view: The platform is part of a complex that hosts Riverside Transit Agency (RTA) transit buses. Bus stalls are slanted (see photo bottom).
A southward view: The OERM opening (right of center) in relation to transit bus access (lower right).
Continued in Part B
Part B (of A-D)
Back at the reserved boarding / alighting museum future track platform, the situation is a weird contradictory one. In is unknown if a piece of passenger carriage could enter without sideswiping the makeshift protective fence.
The visible cement between the yellow strips above is vertical, though sometimes it looks horizontal by mental illusion.
The bus stop area is WEST (right) of the track, but the Metrolink stop area will be EAST of the track (left), according to Environmental Impact Report diagrams (left on photo below).
Hopefully, the material herein will be sufficient to give the forum an idea of the PVL’s Perris stop situation.
Continued in Part C
Part C (of A-D)
Next stop, the end of the line: The South Perris Station.
According to the EIR, the station is just slightly east of the San Jacinto River, the wooden bridge over it shown below, with the station land somewhere on the background right.
Just a few hundred feet to the east is another, but shorter, bridge. The station stop should be in that back greenery area.
Just past the bridging on the right is the slanted “T” intersection of Case Rd. (parallel to the track) and Murrieta Rd. (unseen); the bridge on the left is the same one as just above.
Continued in Part D
Part D (of A-D)
Looking back at the San Jacinto River Bridge, the track currently looks awful and rickety.
A cross view of the area with snowcapped mountains in the background.
The greenery looks attractive now, but is not normally that color most of the year.
If the Perris Valley Line comes to fruition, the transformation of it will be something to behold … and update follow.
K. P. Harrier Looking back at the San Jacinto River Bridge, the track currently looks awful and rickety.
K.P>, would you surmise that the bents in the foreground are newly installed? The wood looks old, but looking at the Google Earth view of the bridge I see no evidence of bents to either side of the bridge as of a year ago.
ChuckCobleigh (2-22):
For forty years I’ve driven over the San Jacinto Branch on what is now I-215 on the east side of Perris, but never managed to follow the rail line itself, except in the last several months. So, I’m not sure what the history is of the bridge in question.
All the mapping aerials I checked show a view the same as the photos previously posted. What I did find, however, was the Google “Earth” mode you mentioned was, because of the sun angle, kind of illusionish, and not definitive.
Maybe someone at the forum was fortunate enough to have passed the bridge many years ago and could shed some light on the matter.
Take care,
K. P. Harrier All the mapping aerials I checked show a view the same as the photos previously posted. What I did find, however, was the Google “Earth” mode you mentioned was, because of the sun angle, kind of illusionish, and not definitive.
I think I figured out what I am seeing. After looking at the Google Earth Street View of that part of Case Road, I realize that what I was seeing as separate bents is actually the bridge bents themselves, the cap beams of which extend a goodly distance beyond the deck. So much for my suspicion that they had started working to put a second bridge in already.
Once the I-15 route was completed between I-10 and Cajon Pass, I have had way fewer opportunities to sample the I-215 route.
ChuckCobleigh (2-22a):
It is amazing how different minds see different things (interpretations) when looking at one matter. One advantage I had about the bridge adjacent Case Rd. was seeing the bridge in person, which avoids have to ‘interpret’ a scene from a photo.
It is assumed a replacement bridge over the San Jacinto River will be built. Putting in such a new replacement bridge on an active rail line is a show in itself. But, there is not much rail traffic at the site, which will greatly expedite the logistics of a replacement.
On September 1, 2008 the following Sunset Route photo was taken at Thermal, CA, near Indio.
On April 25, 2009, the new bridging was in service. But, the key point is that the other main’s bridge had pre-stressed bridging laid within the old bridge!
Obviously the bridge in Perris is different. It is wondered what logistics and science will be employed in replacing it.
Best,
Along I-215 North of Perris, CA
If you started Hi-Railing from the Perris Depot northward, your Hi-railing experience would be short lived!
Along I-215 a short distance to the north of the above photos, something would block your way. And, there is also something happening out that way too that caused BNSF to station a mobile unit by what was happening!
A six-part series on all this will be posted either later today or early tomorrow.
Update as of Monday, March 11, 2013
Surprise Developments
Part I (of I-VI)
Intermodal double-stack well-cars have been parked in long sidings on the ex-Santa Fe San Jacinto Branch of late. However, a new development has arisen. They are now parked right on the branch itself, making getting to the far end of the branch not possible. Maybe there are no customers at the far end anymore.
Three elevated views by the Nuevo Rd. overpass area just before the sun rose:
Looking south:
Northward views:
The well-cars’ north end:
The cars have been ‘in the area’ blocking the line for at least two weeks, but note the shiny wheels (above)! They may (“may”) have been moved northward a mile very recently for some strange reason …
Continued in Part II
Part II (of I-VI)
Nearby (to the above) a contractor and its vehicles, including a small crane-type truck, were present to take down billboard structures right by the track. Here, the freight track (far right) will remain, and a new, high speed track for Metrolink will be laid. The far right pickup truck had orange BNSF decals! Hence, this track may still be dispatched by BNSF dispatchers.
A closer view:
Continued in Part III
Part III (of I-VI)
Later that day, in the afternoon, K.P. had about 40 minutes free time right in that area, so returned to the site, and the sign was down, and workers gone.
The sign post with the double-stack well-cars in the distance.
The Nuevo Rd. overpass is in the background.
Continued in Part IV
Part IV (of I-VI)
Looking north from the Placentia St. overpass: One additional sign was on the ground, and another was being prepared for being put on the ground
Note the proliferation of tracks to rail customers on the left. There are no such customers on the right because Highway 395 / Interstate 215 used to parallel the track quite close.
A view looking south from Ride St.:
Continued in Part V
Part V (of I-VI)
Ride St. used to go through, but hasn’t for many moons. The background barricade will have to be moved or eliminated to lay another track. An 18-wheeler passes on the paralleling I-215 Freeway.
A northward view of the track that will remain, with a new Metrolink high speed track to be laid on the background right-of-way right:
Continued in Part VI
Part VI (of I-VI)
A northward view from the other side of the track, from the frontage road:
Another northward view: Note the nearby downed billboard on the lower left.
The signs are laid right by the roads.
This will conclude the “Along I-215 North of Perris, CA” series.
I realize that renting the air space above the tracks is a revenue source to railroads (think Grand Central Station) but it does not do much for the beauty of nature. The bill boards are a blight on the landscape and I am happy to see them going. Besides they can block the view of the trains. In Texas a law was passed limiting bill boards along freeways. Immediately several signs went up before the effective date of the law in an open field where a freeway was planned to be built in the future. Talk about blight and skimming around the law. A few years ago someone was hitting bill boards with a chain saw (wooden posts) at night and fell several signs on an Indian reservation. More power to them. Hope they were not caught in the act.
I'ma not a great fan of billboards but I would rather see billboards then watch 18 minutes of advertising per half hour on TV. The only reason they are being taken down is either the permit ran out or it isn't seen as being profitable to have them in this location... OR... look for bigger better ones to replace them. I suspect all three.
I might add here taking the law into your own hands is still against the law. However, what would a bunch of outlaws be, if they didn't break a few laws.
There is one way to find out who is dispatching a certain section of railroad...turn your scanner on. It will be apparent with the next local... in switching the spur.
Keep the reports coming K.P. Most of the time your assessments are right on. Yes sir, most of the time, grin.
RickH
BarstowRick.com Model Railroading How To's
BarstowRick I also do not like the 18 minutes of commercials per hour on TV. We get around this by recording shows we like on our Directv box and playing them back at our leisure. The nice thing about doing this is you can zip through the 9-12 commercials per break in a few seconds. This reduces an hour program down to 42 minutes. Also if you miss something you can replay a little bit and also pause for nature calls.
I have no idea who was felling the billboards on the Indian reservation, but I do not think too many tears were shed on their passing. I would never do this myself as it is a felony even though how revolting the billbosrds are. Do not think this would be a good defense if caught.
K.P., thank you for your update on the Perris Valley Line from earlier this week.
I'm of the mindset (similar to people in this thread and rdamon in the Sunset thread) that these felled billboards will be replaced, perhaps with electronic billboards. Currently in the city of Los Angeles, there is an interesting controversy involving electronic billboards.
Also, the fact that the judge has (to my knowledge) not yet ruled on the lawsuit involving the Perris Valley Line, makes me a bit surprised that this work is occurring.
The question that comes to mind, if you don't mind my speculating? Are they clearing a R.O.W. for the new high speed track and leaving the old switching line in place. There is a picture K.P. has shared with us that shows a number of left handed switches. It would be costly to replace these with high speed switches. Not to ignore the local, while it is in working and the need for the commuter trains to get around them.
Just a thought.
CCLTrains, thanks for the come back and dully noted. I like the magic box you mentioned. What you don't know is I've practically eliminated all TV watching...getting sick and tired of it. No cable boxes in my tin can of a home.
Belated Victory Report
This probably escaped most of us, but back on February 6, 2013, the Press-Enterprise newspaper reported Ames Construction, Inc. was the low bidder and won the contract for all the grading and culvert-work for the Perris Valley Line (PVL).
Ames Construction just finished a Union Pacific Sunset Route grading job in the Niland, CA area east of Salton Sea.
It was the Sunset Route contractor on the two-track grading work in Arizona, of which these photos of that work were taken between Casa Grande and Toltec, shot on August 5, 2008:
The Press-Enterprise PVL story:
LINK: Known Contactor Designated
From other railroad projects this forum contributor has seen the Ames Construction on, it can be said they definitely know their trade and get the job done in a very timely manner. It is not surprising they were the low bidder!
Ames Construction Company is also the contractor for Interstate 10 reconstruction and removal of the Union Pacific Pantano bridge at the Cienega Creek / Marsh Station Road area in Arizona, fulfilling a $17 million contract with the Arizona Department of Transportation.
ccltrains (3-14), BarstowRick (3-15), mvs (3-15):
The Fontana, CA area billboards on the Sunset Route that were taken down in recent times have not been replaced. I question whether they ever will. Concerning the billboard removal on the Perris Valley Line (PVL), I don’t see them returning either.
BarstowRick (3-15/3-15a):
No, they are not clearing the right-of-law at this time, but I expect that in the future.
All those old switches I understand will remain.
mvs (3-15):
Personally, I don’t think the judge in the lawsuit would side with those that brought the lawsuit. It is an existing, active rail line, so, from that perspective, I don’t think those that brought the suit have a leg to stand on. But, time will tell.
cacole (3-16):
Ah, yes, the Union Pacific Main 2 reroute by Marsh Station Rd. in Arizona. Good comparison. Note the next item …
Comparisons
On Saturday, March 16, 2013 K.P. was on assignment in the Palmdale, CA area, far away from the Perris Valley Line, and did some documenting of Metrolink’s Antelope Valley Line for comparison purposes. A post series is thus in the works, and it will give the forum added perspective about the PVL mountainous Box Springs area. Timely was cacole’s mention of the Marsh Station Rd. area of Arizona, a mountainous area also, and that is planned to be brought into the post series for comparison too.
Within a week the series should be ready for posting.
Moving Mountains
That will be the theme of an eleven part (A-K) posting series, comparing future track relocations on the Perris Valley Line with what was done in Arizona recently and in Southern California in the last 35-40 years or so.
The material is all ready to go, but making a slot of time for the posting is expected later tonight, between 9:00 P.M. and midnight, Pacific Standard Time.
-----------
Severely delaying the posting has been new ways at photobucket.com, and at this point it is unknown exactly what approach is going to be taken to deal with those new disruptive ways.
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